Using Distilled Water For Development - Do You Still Use a Wetting Agent?

[dkirby]

Hi all,

Title basically says it all. I've been noticing increased mineral deposits/water spots on my negatives lately and I'm going to try developing with only distilled water this weekend to see if I can cure it. I was wondering if, when using distilled water, I should still use a wetting agent for the final wash? Or does that add another variable which can introduce inconsistencies with the negative, and mean I would be better off with just the distilled water?

Thanks
D

 

[GregY]

Hi all,

Title basically says it all. I've been noticing increased mineral deposits/water spots on my negatives lately and I'm going to try developing with only distilled water this weekend to see if I can cure it. I was wondering if, when using distilled water, I should still use a wetting agent for the final wash? Or does that add another variable which can introduce inconsistencies with the negative, and mean I would be better off with just the distilled water?

Thanks
D

D, I live in Alberta which has hard water. I use tap water & wetting agent...and very rarely have water spots...in which case i rewash. You might try using distilled water for the final wash w wetting agent....

 

[Vaughn]

There will some other factors such as drying time (heat and humidity). Rapid drying might make marks more likely than slow.

With no issues, I use tap water (fairly low mineral content) and no wetting agent for 120 and sheet film, hung to dry in the bathroom, relative humidity around 50 to 60%, and temp 55 to 70F.

Great opportunity to go both ways and see what works best in your conditions and methods!

 

[mshchem]

You should absolutely use a wetting agent. You want any remaining water to flow off as quickly as possible. Just consider the film it's not inert like glass. I use good old Photoflo and I use purified water for everything!

 

[xkaes]

There are two reasons to use distilled water. The first is with the developing chemicals -- so any "crud" in the tap water (even if filtered) does not impact developing. That doesn't require much distilled water.

The other as a final rinse -- again to get any "crud" in the water off the film. That doesn't require much distilled water. The complete washing -- before the final rinse -- with NON-distilled water is to remove the fixer.

Photo-Flo is designed to avoid water spots, so it's a good idea, but make sure the concentration is correct. You don't want much at all. Simply add it to the distilled water final rinse. You probably only need a drop or two.

 

[Saganich]

In my experience using tap water with wetting agent gives similar results as using distilled or deionized without wetting agent as final rinse. I have gotten spots when only using tap water everything else being the same...NYC water is soft and pure and wondered if I could get away with just that...nope.

 

[thinkbrown]

I have a reverse osmosis filter under the sink and I use the water from that for mixing chemistry and my final rinses. I typically do two fills/minute of inversions with tap and then two fills with RO water and no wetting agent. It's resulted in very clean negatives and I don't have to worry about having distilled water on hand.

 

[Truzi]

I use the wetting agent with distilled water - it helps the water drip off quickly so drying marks are not left - it's not exclusively a thing with mineral deposits.

Oddly, I don't have to use it with 120. The length is short enough I can grab both ends and loop it under the faucet, quickly blasting it with a strong stream of water. I'm sure someone here knows why (I don't) but this prevents water spots on 120 for me.

 

[dkirby]

Thanks guys.

I've been using this wetting agent: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/73870-REG/Edwal_EDLFN4_LFN_Wetting_Agent_Liquid.html at suggested concentrations (2 drops/pint water) in the final wash and my results have still been horrendous lately (seems like they're worse than they used to be, maybe I'm just noticing more). I'll try distilled water + wetting agent in the final wash this weekend and see how it goes.

 

[Paul Howell]

Here in the Desert Southwest, our water is very hard, Scottsdale the city I live in recently build a new water purification plant our water is not as hard as it once was. I use tap for most developers and fixers use distilled water and photoflow for final rinse. I have few issues with hard water spots.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Our tap water is pretty good. I only used distilled water plus a tad of Photoflo or Ilfosol for the brief final rinse just before hanging the film to dry.

 

[mshchem]

Thanks guys.

I've been using this wetting agent: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/73870-REG/Edwal_EDLFN4_LFN_Wetting_Agent_Liquid.html at suggested concentrations (2 drops/pint water) in the final wash and my results have still been horrendous lately (seems like they're worse than they used to be, maybe I'm just noticing more). I'll try distilled water + wetting agent in the final wash this weekend and see how it goes.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/28195-REG/Kodak_1464510_Photo_Flo_200_Solution.html

Use exactly as recommended.

 

[xkaes]

FYI, all PhotoFlo is not the same. It comes in different concentrations -- at least it used to.

 

[mshchem]

FYI, all PhotoFlo is not the same. It comes in different concentrations -- at least it used to.

Photoflo 200 is what is sold today. Photoflo 600 was sold to big labs, I don't think this has been sold for years. I follow @MattKing process of diluting the Photoflo 200 with isopropyl alcohol, makes dosing easier so I don't overuse.

 

[Rick A]

Thanks guys.

I've been using this wetting agent: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/73870-REG/Edwal_EDLFN4_LFN_Wetting_Agent_Liquid.html at suggested concentrations (2 drops/pint water) in the final wash and my results have still been horrendous lately (seems like they're worse than they used to be, maybe I'm just noticing more). I'll try distilled water + wetting agent in the final wash this weekend and see how it goes.

I've been using LFN since the 70's. I mix two drop wetting agent, two ounces 91% isopropyl alcohol plus enough distilled water to make one liter. I soak my negatives a minimum of one minute in the solution before hanging to dry. With roll film, I shake off as much liquid as possible before unspooling to hang. I haven't had water spot issues since I gave up on Photoflo.

 

[GregY]

I've been using LFN since the 70's. I mix two drop wetting agent, two ounces 91% isopropyl alcohol plus enough distilled water to make one liter. I soak my negatives a minimum of one minute in the solution before hanging to dry. With roll film, I shake off as much liquid as possible before unspooling to hang. I haven't had water spot issues since I gave up on Photoflo.

I'm at the very tail end of a quart bottle of Calumet Zone VI wetting agent bought more than 20 yrs ago. We'll see how i make out with photoflo....since i've got an unopened bottle of that also decades old.

 

[xkaes]

Photoflo 200 is what is sold today. Photoflo 600 was sold to big labs, I don't think this has been sold for years. I follow @MattKing process of diluting the Photoflo 200 with isopropyl alcohol, makes dosing easier so I don't overuse.

I guess that's why my bottle of PhotoFlo 600 is still going strong. Like lots of my other liquid chemicals, I use plastic syringes (1ml up to 50ml) to measure exact small amounts.

 

[jimjm]

I've used Photoflo mixed with distilled water as a final rinse for years - never any spots on the film.
Tap water has been fine for all stages of development and for the 5-10 minute wash cycle.

 

[mshchem]

I guess that's why my bottle of PhotoFlo 600 is still going strong. Like lots of my other liquid chemicals, I use plastic syringes (1ml up to 50ml) to measure exact small amounts.

I think they might have made a 1200 to 1 dilution. Probably for the CIA

 

[Sirius Glass]

I use PhotoFlo 200 with tap water. I would advise starting with PhotoFlo and compare the results with and without it.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Hi all,

Title basically says it all. I've been noticing increased mineral deposits/water spots on my negatives lately and I'm going to try developing with only distilled water this weekend to see if I can cure it. I was wondering if, when using distilled water, I should still use a wetting agent for the final wash? Or does that add another variable which can introduce inconsistencies with the negative, and mean I would be better off with just the distilled water?

Thanks
D

not sure what you are expeting from a switch to distilledwater. it will give you a more predictable development.tsp water can vary in pH;distilledwater does not.distilled water also cutsdown on water deposits,so, you should see less drying marks if you follow the final wash with a bath in distilled and then, you won't need an additional wetting agent but just a drop of wetting agent even in the final bath of distilledwater won't hurt and will make it easier for thewater to run off the film prior to drying. If you wash your film in your development ank make sure to was that properly or wetting agent residue may accumulate on the spiral and make future film feeding more difficult.

 

[dkirby]

not sure what you are expeting from a switch to distilledwater. it will give you a more predictable development.tsp water can vary in pH;distilledwater does not.distilled water also cutsdown on water deposits,so, you should see less drying marks if you follow the final wash with a bath in distilled and then, you won't need an additional wetting agent but just a drop of wetting agent even in the final bath of distilledwater won't hurt and will make it easier for thewater to run off the film prior to drying. If you wash your film in your development ank make sure to was that properly or wetting agent residue may accumulate on the spiral and make future film feeding more difficult.

Yes trying to cut down on drying marks. So, distilled water with a drop or two of wetting agent seems like the way to go.

 

[Vaughn]

I think they might have made a 1200 to 1 dilution. Probably for the CIA

Actually it was Photo Flo 2100. I bought a gallon for the university. I retired 10 years ago, but probably would still have some left! I diluted the 2100 down to a second stock solution that could make a gallon of working solution by adding one ounce of the second stock solution to a gallon of water.

The Photo Flo 600 is more toxic of the the other two (200 and 2100), which is why I went for the 2100 instead of 1600.

 

[F4U]

A 16 oz bottle of Kodak Photo Flo will last most people the rest of their life. Has for me anyway. 1 or 2 drops is all it takes. Yes I'm still alive or else i wouldn't be writing this. but the bottle i bought in the 80's is still half full. The question is whether the plastic bottle itself will all apart before its empty, or will I? At 68, it looks like I will first, at this rate. The big question is, did Kodak simple re-bottle Joy or Ajax dishwashing liquid and put their yellow label on it?

 

[MattKing]

A 16 oz bottle of Kodak Photo Flo will last most people the rest of their life. Has for me anyway. 1 or 2 drops is all it takes. Yes I'm still alive or else i wouldn't be writing this. but the bottle i bought in the 80's is still half full. The question is whether the plastic bottle itself will all apart before its empty, or will I? At 68, it looks like I will first, at this rate. The big question is, did Kodak simple re-bottle Joy or Ajax dishwashing liquid and put their yellow label on it?

Dishwashing liquid is more than just a pure surfactant, it has all sorts of stuff to make it gentle for hands and to smell good and to help cut grease.
Photo flo is simply a surfactant.
Here is the link that @mshchem referenced: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/making-and-using-a-kodak-photo-flo-stock-solution.396/