Used $50 Epson V330 (4800 x 9600) vs New $220 V600 (6400 x 9600) for family slides/negs?

The speed also doubles if you use ICE which takes out the dust.

Ryan_N said:

OMFG. God help me. ....Now I finally understand the various "you have no idea what you're in for" gabs coming from @mgb74 and others in this thread!

I honestly thought the scanner did a swipe like a photocopier -- or any other traditional flatbed scanner I've ever worked with. Even HALF that time, 10 minutes, is insane.

@Wallendo forgot to add above that I appreciate your reference to "beaucoups" of family photos. There honestly might be tens of thousands, and indeed, not all of them require (nor will receive) preferential treatment.

When I was very young, my grandfather would subject the extended family to rousing renditions of Make It ...or Break It? He'd widdle down to 2-3 shots of the same scene, put them into carousels, then make the family vote on the best one. The other two were chucked in a waste-basket on the floor beside him. (LOL, I can still hear the sound of that slide projector perfectly.)

Now it is me doing a final round of same.

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That's what I said earlier. When I did mine, and I didn;t have that many carousels, I went through each carousel and pulled a couple out of each one. A few I kept all or most. I threw the rest out along with the projector that was broken. The fact is, you won't look at all the slides and certainly no one else will either. It's a hard decision. But I had to be realistic.

Right now I have (43) 50 foot reels of 8mm movies my father-in-law took of my wife and sister when they were kids and many of my father-in-laws vacations. I had one scanned by a lab to see what it looked like. It was very nice. However, I'm not really interested going through 43 reels. (2 hours of viewing) and my wife still after all these years has not gone through them to flag which ones she wants me to scan digitally. The point is if your try to scan every slide, you might give up the project after a few carousels. If you're more picky, you'll keep the good ones and maybe, just maybe, complete the scanning project before you blow your brains out.

Alan Edward Klein said:

The speed also doubles if you use ICE which takes out the dust.

That's what I said earlier. When I did mine, and I didn;t have that many carousels, I went through each carousel and pulled a couple out of each one. A few I kept all or most. I threw the rest out along with the projector that was broken. The fact is, you won't look at all the slides and certainly no one else will either. It's a hard decision. But I had to be realistic.

Right now I have (43) 50 foot reels of 8mm movies my father-in-law took of my wife and sister when they were kids and many of my father-in-laws vacations. I had one scanned by a lab to see what it looked like. It was very nice. However, I'm not really interested going through 43 reels. (2 hours of viewing) and my wife still after all these years has not gone through them to flag which ones she wants me to scan digitally. The point is if your try to scan every slide, you might give up the project after a few carousels. If you're more picky, you'll keep the good ones and maybe, just maybe, complete the scanning project before you blow your brains out.

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+1

most of us don’t look at the vast majority of the images we shoot. Even back in the day when getting prints, we would get the roll back, decide which ones were Photo album worthy and the rest would go in a shoebox or something. The photo albums were nice to sit down with friends or family and look at every once in a while, and if there was a passing in the family, you’d go get the best photo album picture of that person and get it copied or enlarged or something, but that was about it.

@Ryan_N i know this sounds sacrilegious, but for your own sanity, you’ll probably need to do some pre-scanning culling to get those “photo album” worthy images and dump the rest. Especially for slide shows and such, unless the people who took those images were exceptionally good photographers and even better editors, most of the images probably are not photo album worthy.

I know that I take many thousands of images per year, yet on a monthly basis, there’s maybe a dozen images that I’d want to really keep for sentimental reasons, and out of those, maybe one or two true keepers. At some point you have so many images that you cannot possibly look at all of them, and so it becomes necessary to edit it down to memorable milestones, and select photos of what’s important to you at key times.

my practice as of late has been to identify what I want to document, then try to edit down the related photos into a short photo essay story for that event. I have kids, so I try to get one good photo of each kid on a weekly basis that is a good representation of where they’re at at that point in time. Whenever we go to do something fun that I want to document, I’ll Hoover a bunch of photos with a mind that I’ll do this story edit process afterwords, then later go through and assemble a short photo essay with the best keepers. The rest of the photos get dumped.

you’ll probably need to do a similar process with your stuff just so you can get through it at all.

Ryan_N said:

@Wallendo Can you elaborate on the 20-minute bit? Does a V600 require this amount of time to process eight negatives or four slides???

Leaning towards the Epson. Your feedback has been very useful. Thanks for sharing this.

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The procedure I used was to have VueScan do multiple exposure scans and an infrared dust/scratch removal scan (3 passes for each image) VueScan has since been updated where a single scan can be performed and individual images extracted. It usually took 15-20 minutes to scan 8 negatives at 1600 ppi. It can be done much faster, but I figured if I was going to all the effort to scan these images, it should be done properly.

Wallendo said:

The procedure I used was to have VueScan do multiple exposure scans and an infrared dust/scratch removal scan (3 passes for each image) VueScan has since been updated where a single scan can be performed and individual images extracted. It usually took 15-20 minutes to scan 8 negatives at 1600 ppi. It can be done much faster, but I figured if I was going to all the effort to scan these images, it should be done properly.

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How does Vuescan do ICE in one scan? Epsonscan requires two scans, one normal and the other infrared, I believe.

Alan Edward Klein said:

The speed also doubles if you use ICE which takes out the dust.

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I'm sure you meant the speed is halved or the scan time is doubled.

Les Sarile said:

I'm sure you meant the speed is halved or the scan time is doubled.

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Yes, that's what I meant. Thanks for clarifying it for me.

Alan Edward Klein said:

How does Vuescan do ICE in one scan? Epsonscan requires two scans, one normal and the other infrared, I believe.

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The single scan method doesn't include an infrared scan. Basically, it just creates a full resolution "preview" and then the software cuts out individual images. As a result I never use that function. I also think that multiscan mode is better a picking up shadow detail and keep that turned on.

Multiscan serves no purpose with a V600. One scan will capture everything. You can;t improive on the dMax. Just use the shadow slider to lighten up those areas darker areas if you need to but first use levels (black and white points). .

Send them off to have them professionally done. Here's why.

First off, it's going to take forever. Much longer than you think. The scanning process itself is slow. Then there's the negative cleaning and mounting process as well. It's going to take forever.

Second, there's a steep learning curve to scanning. It's no where near as easy as scanning documents. It'll be frustrating.

Third, you're going to want to spend good money on good equipment. You're going to want to use a dedicated film scanner. The reason? It will save you a lot of time and give you useful results. If you just do a thousand, quick, low quality scans, you'll still have spent an insane amount of time scanning slides, only none of them are usable for anything other than posting thumbnails online. And someone will want a printed copy and you'll have to go back, find them and rescan them. Otherwise, they're effectively useless to you, other than a reminder of what slides you have stored away somewhere.

Your best investment of your time and money is to go through them all, and find a handful that are worth keeping. Scan those, or send them off to be scanned, at a high quality. Throw out the rest. You don't need to keep everything. And going through and curating the collection now will dramatically increase the likelihood of someone else in the future looking through them and actually spending time with them. If they find 25 slides, they'll give them a look and cherish them. If they find 1,000 slides, they'll look at a few, decide it's junk, and throw them all out. Your best bet to preserving them isn't to digitize them, but to thin down the herd to just the few most important ones.

Ryan_N said:

I honestly thought the scanner did a swipe like a photocopier -- or any other traditional flatbed scanner I've ever worked with. Even HALF that time, 10 minutes, is insane.

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I've done many scans using the Coolscans V, 5000 and 9000 and can fill-in some details.
With the 5000, a full res scan takes about 30 seconds per frame - about 50 seconds with ICE. This is the fastest scan time of all the desktop scanners. Not only is the scantime fast, but film handling is also much faster as you will simply feed the strips of film (6 frame strip) in without needing to put them in film holders. If you have the film as a whole roll, you can scan this in with the optional whole roll feeder. Mounted slides are done individually or 50 slides at a time with the optional slide feeder.
The V takes about twice as long in scan times and does not have the option to use the whole roll feeder or 50 slide adapter.
The Coolscan+Nikonscan has many advantages over all other desktop scanners in terms of quality and not just speed. For all the scanning I've done to date, I can only characterize the process as uneventful. it has one big disadvantage, it is no longer supported and you will have to buy it used.

jim10219 said:

Your best investment of your time and money is to go through them all, and find a handful that are worth keeping.

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Ideally you would only scan the best frames, but color negatives are very hard for most to review and therefore a good scan can be very valuable - one which you can review critical detail, focus as well as color and contrast. I did a relatively small scanning project for a family of mostly wedding pics - a lot of shots of the same poses, and determining which one of those was best would not have been easy without a proper scan - hard to see all eyes open or not, best details or contrast with the brides outfit, best facial expression, etc. They even had some 110 color negative film and some of them were very good.

Ryan_N said:

May I ask what the advantage is? Is it speed or something else? The price disparity between a used Coolscan 5000, and a new Epson flat-bed, is massive. If a dedicated film scanner truly does have a benefit on the end result, I then start to wonder if I'd be best to just send all negatives that have a guaranteed duplicate, in print or slides, to India (ScanCafe).

So much to consider -- to include resolution. Data is cheap, in general, so I'll probably want to scan at high resolution to 250GB thumb drives that will end up in a small fire-proof box when finished, and replicated on an online service for all to enjoy, i.e. Flikr.

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There is a reason the Coolscan 5000 continues to fetch a hefty price even compared to the latest and greatest. In terms of quality difference, it will depend on whether or not the detail was captured on the film. The better the film and quality put in, the more apparent the difference will be. As I've pointed out, scan times and handling is a big advantage. However, as much time as you will save time during the scanning process, you will also save a lot more time in post work.

Scan Cafe used to use Coolscans back when. If they continue to use it, then that sounds like a good option if you don't mind sedning it out.

you could send a few out to different scan services to see which is the best if you go this route.

Ryan, here are some specifics on scanning time.
I develop and print my own film. I use an Epson V600 (purchased second hand for $100.) to scan prints, slides and negatives to post on the internet. I have had issues with Epson software but recently got that sorted out. This morning I have been scanning some B&W negatives at 2400 DPI which is considered a "standard resolution" for 35mm film according to Gary Clark's handbook called "Slides and Negatives, Digitizing and Protecting Your Vintage Film" (ISBN: 978:0:9907615-0-1) that I purchased a couple of years ago. Note, a worthwhile read for the novice like me.
So I timed some scans today. After developing a roll of 36 exposure 35mm film, I cut it into 7 lengths each strip containing 5 exposures. So I am working with two strips of film at a time (10 exposures total). I load them into the holders provided with the V600 and set up the scan. After the scan is complete I unload the film strips and put them back into their clear plastic sleeve (made by Print File). The entire process took 10 minutes and 40 seconds, so that is a little over a minute per photo. To further explain the process, loading the film in the holder took about one minute, unloading took about 30 seconds. The balance of the time, approximately 9 minutes, was consumed by the scanner going through its routine.

I purchased the V600 used several years ago for $100. While on their site yesterday I noticed Epson is offering refurbished units for $150. (if memory serves me right.)

I have had good success scanning my old Kodachrome slides. I will provide some examples in another post.

Loren Sattler said:

I have had good success scanning my old Kodachrome slides. I will provide some examples in another post.

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Please post results and times with and without ICE if you can. TIA

Les Sarile said:

Please post results and times with and without ICE if you can. TIA

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The Epson V600 slide holder will hold up to 4 slides at a time. Again I timed a scan with 4 slides at 2400 DPI resolution. Time for the entire cycle including loading and unloading the holder was 3 min 45 seconds. So you can figure about 1 minute per slide at that resolution.

Here is a link to some slide scans taken with default settings. I do not recall the resolution setting. Link here:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ro6ErCJtDmKPgh4V9

Les, I am not a sophisticated scanner. I have never used the ICE function, only default settings.

Loren Sattler said:

Les, I am not a sophisticated scanner. I have never used the ICE function, only default settings.

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You stated above you were scanning b&w film which of course you would not turn on ICE because it won't work on true b&w film. There is no ICE that works with any true b&w film.

If you could, I would be curious about its performance with Kodachrome - with and without ICE.

I have a V750 and formerly a V500. At one point, I scanned a large collection of my father's 35mm slides, mostly Kodachrome. Here are a few of my opinions:

0. Consider a service. Scanning in bulk really isn't fun. Now I personally didn't use a service for scanning stills, but have used one for digitizing my father's 8mm home movies and results were good and worth the cost.
1. Scanning mounted 35mm slides at least takes away the flatness problem, so probably not worth investing in a fancy betterscanning holder. If you want the best resolution from a flatbed, prop up the standard 2x2 Epson slide holder for whatever scanner you get on felt stand-offs at whatever height gives you optimal resolution. You need to experiment, but you only have to do this once.
2. If most of the slides are Kodachrome, then infrared ICE dust reduction is problematic, due to infrared absorption/scattering in one of the emulsion layers. ICE is intended for C41 and E6 emulsions, not Kodachrome or black and white silver. So that makes your scans go faster, but post processing slower, if you are picky about spotting out dust. For this reason, avoid slide holders with glass; it's just two more surfaces for dust and not really needed for mounted slides to keep things flat.
3. Scan time for flatbeds is proportional to the scanned area and resolution. Settle on the lowest resolution you can tolerate. You can always go back and rescan the best ones. About the best you can really get out of a flatbed is 2400ppi real resolution (3000x2000 pixels per slide). It's not so important that the scanner be able to scan two columns of slides (Epson V750) vs. one column (Epson V500) because this only saves the time to open the lid, put another set of slides down and maybe outline the slides with the marquee tool; not really the longest time in the process.
4. The scan time seems to depend on your computer and driver somewhat. When I upgraded the operating system of my Mac recently, I had to upgrade the Epson driver and somehow that made the scanning go perhaps 30% faster. Still, you need to allow roughly 1-2 min per scan for 35mm colour slides, no ICE and 2400 ppi resolution.
5. Although colour correction of slides is easiest, flatbeds do the poorest of all scanner types on the deep dense blacks of slide emulsions. The upscale Epsons, like the V750 claim somewhat better Dmax than the lower end ones, but in general, scanning tends to increase contrast and you lose the deep blacks compared to what you might see looking at the slides optically.
6. Kodak slide projectors can be found cheap or free these days. Especially if the slides are already in carousels, consider getting a projector to zip through the archive quickly and identify only a fraction to be scanned.

Les Sarile said:

You stated above you were scanning b&w film which of course you would not turn on ICE because it won't work on true b&w film. There is no ICE that works with any true b&w film.

If you could, I would be curious about its performance with Kodachrome - with and without ICE.

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Les, In my previous post there is a link to an album of Kodachrome slides all done with default settings. After your question today I tried to scan some more with the ICE feature, but I could not figure out how to activate that feature. I read the help instructions that suggest there should be a click box near the bottom of the screen....but no box there. See photo of my screen attached. Sorry I could not be of help with ICE.

Click the box next to Dust Removal.
I'm guessing that Epson Scan includes its own version of a dust removal tool, rather than ICE, which is proprietry.

MattKing said:

Click the box next to Dust Removal.
I'm guessing that Epson Scan includes its own version of a dust removal tool, rather than ICE, which is proprietry.

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Matt, the instructions imply both: dust removal (simple enhancement) and ICE, and more elaborate function for dust, scratches etc. However, when you get down to trying to use ICE, it is not there on the screen, very puzzling. I am very unimpressed with Epson's software. This is not the only issue I have had.

6. Kodak slide projectors can be found cheap or free these days. Especially if the slides are already in carousels, consider getting a projector to zip through the archive quickly and identify only a fraction to be scanned.[/QUOTE]

There are two accessories that can speed up slide viewing.
1) A Kodak stack loader which allows loading up to 36 slides in bulk (in a stack) into any Kodak projector avoiding the time consuming loading and unloading of carousels. Great accessory.
2) A Pan-Vue slide viewer which allows viewing up to 36 slides in bulk on a portable viewer. These are available on eBay for very little cost. See photo.

The Web instructions for the V600 on Epson's site indicate that Digital Ice is not supported for Kodachrome scanning.
See here - it is in an a note in small type:
https://files.support.epson.com/htmldocs/prv6ph/prv6phug/html/projs_3.htm

Les Sarile said:

You stated above you were scanning b&w film which of course you would not turn on ICE because it won't work on true b&w film. There is no ICE that works with any true b&w film.

If you could, I would be curious about its performance with Kodachrome - with and without ICE.

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Because of the special layers, ICE doesn;t work with Kodachrome.

Loren Sattler said:

Matt, the instructions imply both: dust removal (simple enhancement) and ICE, and more elaborate function for dust, scratches etc. However, when you get down to trying to use ICE, it is not there on the screen, very puzzling. I am very unimpressed with Epson's software. This is not the only issue I have had.

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Are you running the latest version of Epsonscan? There should be a check mark. See photo of page from the Epson manual. You can get software and manuals and drivers from Epson site.