URGENT question on light bulbs

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Lightproof

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I like to save energy and was always interested in alternative light sources such as LEDs et cetera.
The point is, these substitutes can just not compete a light bulb yet. They have major drawbacks (warmup times, colour temp, electromagnetic tolerance issues, aging effects, hazardous materials...). And as we all know, the structure of artificial light has a major impact on quality of living.
All these alternatives are at least costly and I stopped trying them out because this habit became more environmentally polluting than the use of a common bulb.

It is not about saving the environment, it is about bureaucracy. This law saves the jobs of some more or less clever marionettes in the EUdSSR. From the beginning on we were told that this law was adopted in conformance with the industry.

There is one thing for sure: The traditional light bulb will survive the EU. To hell with these undemocratic )/&%ers!
 

Steve Smith

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[Sarcasm]

So, in theory, I could buy the enlarger bulbs, but could not use them since my darkroom is in my home?

[/Sarcasm]

The law prevents the sale, not the use.


Steve.
 

kevs

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On one hand, I can see why the EU has made this law - filament bulbs are inefficient, their emissions peaking at wavelengths we can't see, in the infrared. On the other, I don't like foreign bureaucrats telling me what I can buy and what I can't. CFLs are fine when new, but they quickly become very dim upon switching on and take an age to warm up, and then there's the mercury content issue noted earlier. The law is dictating the market because most consumers won't switch without a shove.

I've 'converted' my enlarger to L.E.D.s, and I'm hoping that if or when I set up my old darkroom again, it'll work fine. Otherwise, I'm probably stuffed.

I might take a trip to Jersey and smuggle some 60w bulbs in. j/k :smile:
 

Ross Chambers

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Incandescent Lamps and EEC Nannies

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8230544.stm

Note "all incandescent bulbs by 2012"

My Ilford head uses dichroic lamps, perhaps I'm OK, but all those condenser enlargers?

Maybe I should get up to date and buy a digital camera, Mac, printer etc. I'm really sure that when they are superceded they will be more benevolent to the environment than a few incandescent light globes.

I spent some time trying to find a way of disposing of dead CFLs with their mercury content recently, no-one wants them around here.

Regards - Ross
 

Muihlinn

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It's good for all to reduce the power comsuption regardless that stuff which is well past its intended service life, but mind you, (AFAIK) there is a moratory over lamps of special use, like those dichro lamps in medical aparatus which cannot be reliably switched to other kind of bulbs or dichro, which are about the same that those used in enlargers, like mine.

Stocking a box of lamps will put you in the safe side, and once it's gone almost surely you will have something in the market that will be of good use for replacement. Life is changing.
 

MikeSeb

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These sorts of laws are the inevitable result of collective acquiescence to ever more government control of our lives.

This is the downside to asking government to "take care" of all our problems, and voting accordingly.
 

Andrew Moxom

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Yikes! My Beseler 45 S universal head has 3 x 250Watt bulbs.... One for each color. Stocking up for that will be expensive... As for the EU law changes to outlaw incandescent bulbs, what narrow minded, blinkered vision. The flourescents as have been stated are not really any better in my experience. I replace just as many at my house as I do incandescant bulbs. The mercury issue will not go away, and the powers that be are turning a blind eye to this serious issue. They might be more efficient bulbs (debatable), but will cause a long term effect as most of folks using the so called green flourescents will NOT dispose of them properly and they'll end up in landfills. Yet the Sheeple will follow and do as they're told.
 

Q.G.

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As mentioned before, the lamps of the future are not fluorescent lights, but LED-lamps.
 

Q.G.

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Why not indeed.

Neither fluorescent nor LED lights are yet ready to create the light we want, which is why we are not yet ready to buy fluorescent or LED lights.

Had it been different, we would not need to be coerced into saving a substantial part of our electricity bill.
 

ajuk

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Don't panic, I'm sure there are exceptions for scientific photographic uses etc. I still think taxing them so they are no longer cheaper (although that have been a false economy for quite a few years now) than the energy saving kind would have been a much better and less oppressive solution.
 

clayne

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Just like the Prius, more short-term greenism. It's hard to not be cynical these days when it seems like we just keep making stupid decision after stupid decision with no real long-term thinking.

Perfect example is something like CFL bulbs, or even better: Cash for Clunkers (ridiculous program).
 
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Q.G.

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I still think taxing them so they are no longer cheaper (although that have been a false economy for quite a few years now) than the energy saving kind would have been a much better and less oppressive solution.

And that will be the thing behind it all.
Profit margins are smaller selling old style bulbs. Industry can make a lot more money by selling fluorescent lights. Much, much more selling LED lights.
They will have lobbied extensively. And as long as they keep the focus on the (real!) energy saving thingy, it will have been extremely easy to get this through.

So there should not be taxes on old style bulbs, but an anti-cartel meassure against the lamp making industry and their inflated prices.
 

bob100684

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I wonder what is going to happen even to minilab operators. Some of the newer frontiers use LED's to scan each frame....as does the low capacity 340. All the others use a 650 watt bulb as do the older fuji sfa optical minilabs.
 

Ralph Javins

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It's times like this I don't mind living in the US.

Well, do not get your hopes for the quality of our politicians up too high just yet.

Up here in the Pacific Northwest United States, we have cool temperatures most of the year. Talking with our legislators is a frustration filled and head-shaking experience. Pointing out that the banning of incandescent lamps, which they are banning in hope of saving electricity, are usually inside our houses, and those houses up here most often are heated with electricity (remember our "All Electric Homes" marketing campaigns?), is not going to accomplish their goal was not persuasive. Out here the heat from those incandescent lamps is not wasted or lost; it stays in the home, as far as the insulation can keep it there. What that means is that the thermostat on the wall of that home does not come on as often to turn on the electric baseboard heaters in the home. Up here, there will be no real saving in electrical power consumption as long as we heat the homes with the hydro-electric power generated with our dams.

Moving out into the outdoors, we did change our traffic signal lights from incandescent bulbs to Light Emitting Diode (LED) displays. We did cut our electrical power consumption by 90 per cent. Yes, we are using only 10 per cent of the electrical power we previously used to run a full eight phase intersection. We also stopped going out to the intersections once per year to change the light bulbs. The management people pointed proudly to the saving in labor costs. However, we have also lost the checks we used to make of the traffic signals. We tightened loose screws and replaced those that were missing. We cleaned the lenses. We tightened the traffic signal mounting bolts. We checked and tightened the electrical connections inside the traffic signals. There were lots of things we did in addition to changing the light bulbs. All of that is gone now. Now we respond to the traffic signal displays that have failed. The ones that just look bad are ignored until something happens that requires our attention.

There is something else about the LED displays that is not discussed very often. Perhaps because most people do not know that the problem exists. The LED displays often generate Radio Frequency noise. As I drive from one traffic signal to another, I can tell when I am getting close to one with the LED displays, because the RF noise over-rides the squelch setting on my communications radio and it turns on with a rushing or hissing sound from the speaker. This increased noise level does interfere with a desired radio signal while I am near the intersection.

Again I say, do not get your hopes up too high for our politicians. Probably the main benefit will be the much higher prices the manufacturers of the products can charge for the replacement lighting devices for the incandescent lamp. Concerns for the ozone layer were given as the main driving force behind the banning of Freon R-12 and R-22 for refrigeration and air conditioning systems. Has anyone checked the price for the R-134a replacement, or for the much more expensive lubricating oils you must use that are compatible with R-134a? Also the cost of the reclaiming equipment a refrigeration technician must purchase and use today? There are reasons why it costs you so much more to get your air conditioner serviced. E. I. Dupont du Nemours had fully amortized the engineering costs for Freon R-12 and R-22. They did not go out of business as a result of that ban. If anything, their profits are up again.

I wonder where the real driving force behind a lot of this legislation comes from?
 

Sirius Glass

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Again I say, do not get your hopes up too high for our politicians. Probably the main benefit will be the much higher prices the manufacturers of the products can charge for the replacement lighting devices for the incandescent lamp. Concerns for the ozone layer were given as the main driving force behind the banning of Freon R-12 and R-22 for refrigeration and air conditioning systems. Has anyone checked the price for the R-134a replacement, or for the much more expensive lubricating oils you must use that are compatible with R-134a?

Ever since the freon change over, I have only had one vehicle [which sat for a year unused] require additional freon be added. My mechanic added the freon at no charge [to me, he was charging the car ... pun intended]. Keep in mind that I own several vehicles.

Steve
 

Ralph Javins

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Ever since the freon change over, I have only had one vehicle [which sat for a year unused] require additional freon be added. My mechanic added the freon at no charge [to me, he was charging the car ... pun intended]. Keep in mind that I own several vehicles.

Steve

Good morning, Steve;

While I can certainly join with you in appreciating your good fortune in getting your car serviced gratis by your mechanic, how does that affect in any way my comments about the prices of the products and the tools to do that work?

I say that the illustration I provided to show the economic factors involved is still valid.
 

AgX

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Ralph,

On that issue on additional heating by incandescant lamps:

-) most people live in areas where one does not need to heat the house the full year.

-) heating by electricity is generally considered less economic than heating by other means.


However that heating effect can sometimes be very pleasant (well, our basic urge to sit at a fire...) And it is radiation heating which in some situations can be more effective than other means.
 

Sirius Glass

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Good morning, Steve;

While I can certainly join with you in appreciating your good fortune in getting your car serviced gratis by your mechanic, how does that affect in any way my comments about the prices of the products and the tools to do that work?

I say that the illustration I provided to show the economic factors involved is still valid.

And my point is that since the change, the designs of air conditioner for cars, trucks, homes and businesses have improved to cut down the leakages that occurred before. The consumers and businesses have had less need to recharge their air conditioning and the mechanics charge more for the use of the improved tools. The consumers and businesses are ahead, the mechanics are at least staying even, and the environment benefits. This is in stark contrast to the anti-science and anti-thinking approach of government philosophy in the recent past.

Steve
 

Ralph Javins

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-) most people live in areas where one does not need to heat the house the full year.

-) heating by electricity is generally considered less economic than heating by other means.

However that heating effect can sometimes be very pleasant (well, our basic urge to sit at a fire...) And it is radiation heating which in some situations can be more effective than other means.

Good morning, AgX;

Thank you for commenting and participating in this discussion. I do value and respect your perspective.

In your first point in response, I did indicate clearly that I am in the Pacific Northwest United States, and we do heat our homes a large percentage of the year. Our requirement for air conditioning is remarkably limited.

In the second point, I also spoke directly of the electrical power here being generated by our hydro-electric power plants in our dams. We do export out of our region a fair quantity of electricity that is surplus to our consumption (mainly to California). While now the concensus is that heating by electricity is not the best way to use that energy, we still have and we are still living in many houses that were part of the housing construction and marketing philosophy associated with that "All Electric Home" concept. There are a few million people out here in the Puget Sound Region for whom the arguments presented against the incandescent bulb industry simply do not apply. Having a government mandated ban on one type of illumination that is based on "science" that is demonstrated to be questionable and to have several exceptions is not good legislation.

If the advantages of the higher cost Compact Flourescent Lights (CFL) and Light Emitting Diode (LED) lights are that much more superior to incandescent lamps in terms of both electrical power consumption and longevity, then let the fair market and the merits of the devices determine the winner in this competition; not government mandate. So far, I have not seen a clear superiority in the CFL that I have been able to buy. The sound of electrical arcing inside an operating or blinking CFL is a concern for me. I have had three of them do that so far. There are several CFL samples in my house that have not had the life expectancy of even a cheap incandescent lamp, let alone the claim of superior longevity, and I must use my vehicle, and the fuel to operate it, to take those defective devices to a designated center to properly handle the hazardous materials those dead CFL contain.

How much progress have we really made?
 

Ralph Javins

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(1.) And my point is that since the change, the designs of air conditioner for cars, trucks, homes and businesses have improved to cut down the leakages that occurred before. The consumers and businesses have had less need to recharge their air conditioning and the mechanics charge more for the use of the improved tools.

(2.) The consumers and businesses are ahead, the mechanics are at least staying even, and the environment benefits.

(3.) This is in stark contrast to the anti-science and anti-thinking approach of government philosophy in the recent past.

Steve

Good morning, Steve;

(1.) Your first point is well taken. One obvious question is whether or not those recent improvements in seals, gaskets, and other parts to improve the integrity of the air conditioning systems would not have been an equally effective bonus in keeping the Freon R-12 and R-22 inside. The use of the Freon recovery system is not anything that I am criticizing. I agree with it.

(2.) If the costs to the consumers and the businesses have risen, and I have not yet heard you claim that they did not rise, I am not sure how at least me, as one of those consumers, is "ahead."

(3.) Steve, you and I are in agreement here. That is one of my points also. So many times, I have watched legislation generated and passed that was based on emotional reaction, rather than good science, a demonstration of need, or a proper exercise of governmental power. Specific examples can be cited, if desired.
 
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