Unofficial Ilford update (products)

[TPPhotog]

Tom,

Thank you for your explanation but I think Les is more entitled to it than I am. He has a long history with Ilford and the situation will have much more effect on Les than it will for any of us. I would go as far to say that Ilford may not have lasted as long as it has without the experience and relationship that the company and Les have shared.

This is only one of several threads that have been on the subject of the decline of film and unless you have had the time to read every one (which would take some doing coming in part way through) it can be easy get get the wrong impression.

As for social skills I put my foot in it more often than most and on a forum comments can easily be misunderstood. I can never make up my mind if the Internet has improved communication or simply aided the transfer of information, which are not the same thing.

Tony

 

[jd callow]

Tom if someone really pisses you off use the ignore feature. The beauty of this site is that it is civil. By your post I assume you'd prefer it be that way.

 

[Eric Rose]

Actually what Les said to me was a bit of an inside joke between us. While he stayed with me here in Canada I razed him about his digital camera. Mind you he shot his Mamiya the entire time he was here. Might have been something to do with the brisk salt air/water of the US coast his digi-cam was exposed to I think.

Once he saw me actually admit that I would use whatever it takes to achieve my artistic goals he instantly leap on it to rub it in. That's ok, that's what friends are for.

Well I guess we can all do a big group hug around the monitor and get on with life.

 

[Aggie]

Can we say Thank You to down sizing companies who decide to outsource? Today I find out that my hubby as of Oct. 16th is out of a job! Now before i can cry about all of this, he is laid off at one company but picked up by IBM who is doing the out sourcing work. They did not look at what he actually does for the company. They are out sourcing their data center operations among a lot of other things. Well the only person who has done the data center moves/migration for the company over the last 15 years has been of all people my hubby. IBM needs him badly. Williams Sonoma if they had thought about it would be under the same assumption. Now Williams
sonoma will end up through this contract, paqying 3 times as much for the same things my hubby did for them. If this is not ironic enough, Dan is also being told he may move inot their international contracts division, and fly around the world overseeing the same types of operations. Which would leave Williams Sonoma totally out in the cold on their project. Dan is one of the lucky ones. Many are losing their jobs with no place to go. All of those jobs are going to India.
Did Williams Sonoma have to do this to fend off fallinbg sales? No they have not been more profitable then they are right now. They are being held up by wall street as the example of a winning company. This move just makes it more comfortable for the chairman of the board to buy yet a third new 50 million personal jet in 3 years.

 

[Eric Rose]

A good friend of mine's wife got caught up in the same thing. She was the senior person in the area. Guess what IBM did? Got her to train a bunch in India (they came over here) and then moved all the work to India. Cheap labor. Hope you like curry!

 

[Ed Sukach]

Over he last X years, and having been an active member of, and an intense student of management, I have discovered one undeniable truth, and formulated "Sukach's First Law of Management": "The companies that compensate their employees the most are invariably the most successful." That really began with a rather ... or in fact, VERY, odd genius named Henry Ford - when he decided to pay his sweepers of the floor an incredible FIVE dollars a day!!

Over the years, that has remained true ... through companies like the original IBM, Xerox, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Polaroid, Lotus ...
Only when the decided to "economize" by slashing the payroll of the rank and file did their significant slide to oblivion begin.

Sounds strange, I know ... but I've yet to see ONE instance that contradicted this law.

A reporter once asked Ford about his weird decision to pay his workers so much. The answer, "Well, if I didn't, who would have enough money to buy my cars?". Unfortunately, that is exactly what I see happening right now.

Has anyone see the Cadillac commercial that screams ... "Finally - AMERICA builds a WORLD CLASS car!" - And at the very end, it states, much more quietly - in a whisper .... "Assembled in the United States from parts produced elsewhere."

Sadly, I see the old Chinese curse being activated: "May you live in interesting times."

 

[bjorke]

...one undeniable truth, and formulated "Sukach's First Law of Management": "The companies that compensate their employees the most are invariably the most successful."

Okay, explain Ken Lay. Or Iacocca. Or Eisner. Or Cheney.

Be careful that you don't reverse the relationships between cause and effect.

 

[dr bob]

Okay, explain Ken Lay. Or Iacocca. Or Eisner. Or Cheney.

Be careful that you don't reverse the relationships between cause and effect.

I think that depends on your definition of "successful".

Sorry, I agree with Ed, even though our politics are different. I was Chairman of the Board of Directors of a non-profit "Chesterwye Center", a service organization for mentally and physically challenged adults. When I took over the chair, the organization had a severe "revolving door" problem. Hourly wage employees would come in, get trained and go. The clients were hurt - badly. I instituted a rather large (20%) pay increase, and overhauled the leave policy. Within one year, the annual budget rose from just under $1M to over $2M and now is moving toward $3M. The revolving door has been closed and all employees, hourly and salary, B&W, Hispanic and WASP are a (more or less) happy family. We have the highest hourly wage mental health employees on "the Shore" and we, unfortunently, have to turn some clients away until we get funds and facilities to accommodate them.

 

[Dave Miller]

"The companies that compensate their employees the most are invariably the most successful."

I think Ed’s quite right.
Now how do I get the concept over to my boss?

 

[Tom Duffy]

Sorry Ed, I'd like to agree, but since globalization it's a different ball game. Which shirt do you buy given a choice a $30 made in another country or a $80 shirt made in this country by a worker with a living wage and benefits? Doesn't really matter what you would do, the rest of America has voted with it's wallet.
Look at the airline industry - United, US Air, Northwest all on the brink of bankruptcy. the newer carriers, with less burdensome wage/benefit packages and no huge pension plan payments are doing much better.
My own field is IT. Companies say "Why pay $60,000 for a starting programmer when I can pay $5,000 for the equivalent in India?" and they're right. This offshoring places a huge burden on domestic IT middle management, but companies don't really care. I haven't had a raise since 2000 and year end bonus has gone through the floor, but I consider myself lucky to still have a job.
My theory on globalization is this: consider the locks on the Panama canal. if one area of water is 20 feet higher than the others (think standard of living), protected by locks, (think preglobalization). open the locks and the world's standard of living is incrementally improved while the old first world has a drastic decline in standard of living. And, as they said in the old Batman TV series, "The worst is yet to come!"
Take care,
Tom

 

[FrankB]

Thanks TPP -

You're right of course. i don't know who Les is, and I'm not likely to be swayed by someone who tries to hold an aura of authority and says "I told you so" when Ilford is vulnerable and heading down and out (ish). I haven't been on this forum long, but if someone says opportunistically says "I told you so", by gum that has to be one of the most irritating and unhelpful statements. They've clearly been repeating themselves ad nauseam. And don't say I didn't tell you so ;*)


We all have valuable experience to learn from: my problem is that the way Ilford and film-based photography is being pushed out by commercial factors, I'm not going to get 30 years out of using film based emulsion let alone 3.

Digital photography and its future dresscoats will be here for a longer time - this thread is about Ilford's traditional material - not about digital as an alternative. That's what I mean about hijacking a thread - it's so easy to insert *digital* as an option when Ilford is in receivership.

What I like(d) about this thread (in all my immaturity - yep - I'm not socially adept am I) is that I can vent my neuroses about Ilford products and learn about Ilford unofficially.

Sorry if I offended anyone - clearly I need to brush up on my social skills. Time to go back to working in the darkroom (all alone now ;>)

Tom, I have to say that I think you're way off base here. Les is one of the most unassuming people I know. Any "aura of authority" you may perceive is passed to him by choice by those who know of his experience and expertise rather than paraded by him. In particular, suggesting that Les find a different forum to express his views is (in my opinion), completely out of order.

Les, as Tony has stated, has very close ties with a lot of the Ilford staff. The redundancies at Ilford so far have affected a number of his friends, which puts it very much closer to home for him than most of the rest of us. I don't agree with all of his points, but I will listen with respect to any views he cares to put forward.

This is a free forum where everyone (including both yourself and Les) has the right to express their views. We do, however, try to keep it civil. That is one of the key differences between APUG and most of the other forums on the 'net.

As Mr Callow says, the ignore feature is provided for your convenience should you disagree particularly strongly with a member's views.

Regards,

Frank

 

[John Cook]

One purpose of this thread seems to be to speculate about the future of Ilford. Based upon simple laws of capitalism, that should be obvious.

Law One: No consumer is willing to pay one cent more for a product than he has to.

Law Two: All investors, including simple everyday folks with tiny bank savings accounts, will always put their money where it earns the highest rate of return.

Law Three: Entrepreneurs, in order to satisfy both groups, must keep their overhead as low as possible.

Law Four: Politicians get elected with a majority of the votes. Since there are more workers than business owners, successful politicians tend to gravitate toward labor’s point of view.

It takes a few years, but to stay in office, lawmakers continue to award their constituents tougher safety standards, tighter pollution controls, higher welfare payments, etc. And of course the bill for all of this is sent to the “big, wealthy corporations who can best afford to pay it”.

After a while, the economic conditions become “mature” and it becomes absolutely impossible to operate a business at a profit. The manufacturers are forced to seek greener, cheaper, pastures elsewhere off shore. This is exactly what has happened here in the extremely liberal People’s Republic of Massachusetts. Best welfare in the USA, but no jobs. The Rust Belt, you know. Also pretty well describes the business climate in the UK.

For the last half-decade, Ilford’s operating costs have exceeded their gross revenue by about one million dollars per month. Who in his right mind would want to purchase that insanity?

I suspect the answer is that the venture capital boys are patiently waiting, as Ilford slowly twists in the wind and her selling price continues to drop. When the time and price are right, they will pounce, buy up the equipment, formulae for the top-selling 10% of the product line and hightail it for Asia.

 

[FrankB]

Alternatively, Bill Gates might wake up one morning, realise that not everything in life revolves around ones and zeroes, buy Ilford from his pocket change, reinstate the staff, invest heavily in R&D, start an aggressive advertising campaign, go toe-to-toe with the digital hordes, reverse the trend, secure traditional photography's future side-by-side as a viable alternative to digital processes, sponsor high-profile international fine-art printing competitions....

Nurse, nurse, my medication, quickly!

For a moment there the future almost made sense...

 

[Dave Miller]

Tom, I have to say that I think you're way off base here. Les is one of the most unassuming people I know. Any "aura of authority" you may perceive is passed to him by choice by those who know of his experience and expertise rather than paraded by him. In particular, suggesting that Les find a different forum to express his views is (in my opinion), completely out of order.

Les, as Tony has stated, has very close ties with a lot of the Ilford staff. The redundancies at Ilford so far have affected a number of his friends, which puts it very much closer to home for him than most of the rest of us. I don't agree with all of his points, but I will listen with respect to any views he cares to put forward.

This is a free forum where everyone (including both yourself and Les) has the right to express their views. We do, however, try to keep it civil. That is one of the key differences between APUG and most of the other forums on the 'net.

As Mr Callow says, the ignore feature is provided for your convenience should you disagree particularly strongly with a member's views.

Regards,

Frank

Very succinctly put Frank, a veiwpoint with which I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[donbga]

For example, I have a friend called Pradip Malde who produces the most exquisite platinum prints who did a body of work called Prayer and Despair but when I took a friend who was a wonderful photographer in his own right to see the show he thought it was rubbish, I loved it.

I'm not sure if 'Prayer and Despair' is Pradip's latest body of work but if it is the stuff that he showed here in Atlanta last October it is pure crap IMO. I wasn't alone in my reaction, most everyone I spoke to that viewed the work during his artist talk was disappointed, bored and confused with his work. I don't even think he prints palladium prints any longer and has switched entirely to Piezography (which really doesn't bother me).

His work from several years ago was very good, much of it abstract, but his latest stuff seems to demand that the viewer read a lengthy and convoluted artiist statement to even get a clue as to what his visual intent might be.

Don Bryant

 

[Ed Sukach]

Okay, explain Ken Lay. Or Iacocca. Or Eisner. Or Cheney.

Be careful that you don't reverse the relationships between cause and effect.

I won't.

How successful are/ were the COMPANIES under their management? ... and how well were their employees compensated?

There is no doubt that all of these guys have made barrels of money for themselves ... but that is not "management of a company".

The slide never really starts until they start screwing their employees ...

Cheney ... nah ... too political to discuss.

 

[Ed Sukach]

One purpose of this thread seems to be to speculate about the future of Ilford. Based upon simple laws of capitalism, that should be obvious.

Law One: No consumer is willing to pay one cent more for a product than he has to.
Law Two: All investors, including simple everyday folks with tiny bank savings accounts, will always put their money where it earns the highest rate of return.
Law Three: Entrepreneurs, in order to satisfy both groups, must keep their overhead as low as possible.
Law Four: Politicians get elected with a majority of the votes. Since there are more workers than business owners, successful politicians tend to gravitate toward labor’s point of view.

For the moment, I's stick to your "Laws".

1. I don't think so. Last time I looked I still have both Hassleblads. I can obtain transportation for a LOT less than I have .. I could have bought a YUGO. To say that people NEVER pay more is a gross oversimplification.

2. An Investor who lasts longer than lunch time will consider a LOT more than "rate of return". I stayed out of the stock market when everyone else was investing like crazy and receiving high returns. A friend of mine invested heavily in Polaroid stock. Care to guess who's smiling now?

3. Successful entrepreneurs, the last time I looked, did not consider their employees as "overhead" ( I can hear the gasps from here!) Employee salaries and compensation should properly be "Operating Expenses"... and employees represent MAJOR investments in time and training. They ... oh the hell with it... I don't wish to get "deep" here.
Possibly I stayed from my point ... do you realize how high some entrepreneurs' overhead is? Check out the walnut credenzas and silver tea services ... and the company Country Clubs. Of course, the workers in the dust will NEVER get the right tools to do the job...

4. Another oversimplification. Remove the funding necessary to run a political campaign, the advertising, the "spin" people clouding men's (and women's) minds ... and even then ... as the last Presidential election shows, it MAY not be necessarily so. In a direct, PURE, democracy with instant, infallible communications, and a totally dedicated citizenry ... you could very well be right. Where can I find one of those?

 

[Les McLean]

I'm not sure if 'Prayer and Despair' is Pradip's latest body of work but if it is the stuff that he showed here in Atlanta last October it is pure crap IMO. I wasn't alone in my reaction, most everyone I spoke to that viewed the work during his artist talk was disappointed, bored and confused with his work. I don't even think he prints palladium prints any longer and has switched entirely to Piezography (which really doesn't bother me).

His work from several years ago was very good, much of it abstract, but his latest stuff seems to demand that the viewer read a lengthy and convoluted artiist statement to even get a clue as to what his visual intent might be.

Don Bryant

Don

Prayer and Despair was made several years ago it was platinum and it was the last work of his that I've seen, it was also the last time I spent time with him. He brought the show to Edinburgh where he taught in the university which is where I met him. I had heard that he was experimenting with Piezography and I'm sad that it's not so good. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[doughowk]

If I was told I had to evacuate due to another hurricane & could only grab a few things before leaving, I would take a hand-made silver gelatin print over a millionth copy of a digital print. If it is all about the image, why not just grab the prettiest? If the end product is all that matters, we would buy only items manufactured on an assembly line. When I have a cup of coffee in the morning, which cup do I get - the manufactured cup or one hand-made by a potter? There is an aesthetics to life lived to the fullest; and it doesn't include digital essentially because the hand of man - or even nature itself - is nowhere present in a digital world.

 

[noblebeast]

Good point Doug!

And as far as Jon Cook's Law Four, It is a yes, but no, proposition. Yes, in our so-called Representative Democracy the Labor class would seem to have more votes than the business and CEO classes, but no, the moneyed elite fund and therefore choose for the rest which of their candidates the majority get to vote for. So it's a Win-Win for the board of directors and a Lose-Lose for their employees.

And the post also ignores the fact (yes, fact, not theory or belief) that the past thirty years has seen a giant increase in the salaries and bonuses of CEO's. In the Seventies the average CEO made about sixty times what the lowest paid employee in the company made. That figure has risen to 350-400 times what the lowest paid employee makes - and that does not include the low wages inherent in outsourcing. The cost of doing business, for large corporations at least, has gone up because of huge executive salaries and perk packages and not standard payroll. The minimum wage of 1970 bought almost twice as much in goods and services than today's will. And I've noticed that with all that expense the companies are saving on outsourced labor the cost of what they produce hasn't come down at all, but the executives "earn" really nice cash and stock bonuses for getting the value of the company's stock to go up a few percentage points, because it is much more important to keep the stock holders fat and happy than to keep the employees paid well enough that they can feed and clothe their families. Of course, all of the above rant speaks primarily to experiences here in the USA, but I'm sure it's not so different in the other industrialized nations.

Joe

 

[papagene]

At the insurance company I used to work for, the previous CEO who retired about a year ago got $20 million bonus package and a $1 million/year retirement package. All the while people were being laid off outright or outsourced.
Ah, the American way.

gene

 

[Ed Sukach]

Let me try to choose from a list of excuses ... Sleep deprivation, pressure of business, dealing with models ... nah, I won't go there.

I just remembered the source - I wasn't the one who was first .... :

"I have seen thousands of businesses fail. I have yet to see one fail because they paid the help too much."

Care to guess who the author was?

A Scot who was well known - famous - for keeping track of each and every penny... but at the same time, nearly mystically aware of the effect and value of each and every investment - Andrew Carnegie.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I guess that's why Carnegie employed Pinkerton guards to suppress labor strikes and bring in replacement workers---so they wouldn't have to pay the help too much. Actually, he usually had Henry Clay Frick do his dirty work.

The result? One of the world's greatest art collections--http://www.frick.org/

 

[Fintan]

I buy a lot of film on a website called www.7dayshop.com and they have the follwing text beside some of their Ilford products.

"We have expanded the best selling range of Ilford black and white films due to strong demand from our valued customers."

I dearly hope this is true.

 

[sergio caetano]

What about Ilford at Photokina ? Does somebody know what they are showing ? (besides products made in Switzerland...)