Are you referring only to color films with their standard processing? Because since b&w is developed to a given CI, wouldn't that negate any such contrast adjustments manufactured into the film?
Steve
So, this is contrary to your statement that B&W is developed to a fixed CI.
PE
PE,
It's not. I used "given" for b&w. Anyway, you answered my question. Thanks.
Steve
...You mean the K factor? It is part of the standard, and the most recent standard has made an adjustment in the ranges. I happen to have every exposure meter standard going back to the 1940s. The variations in the value of K has to do principally with the spectral sensitivity of the photo cell? This is from James F. Scudder, C.N. Nelson, and Allen Stimson, Re-evaluation of Factors Affecting Manual or Automatic Control of Camera Exposure, Journal of the SMPTE, vol 77, Jan 1968. Much of the paper is used verbatim in the 1971 exposure meter standard's appendix. Come on Ralph, sweeping statements without any facts to back them up? If you have a particular point about the standard and calibration factors for the manufacturers, then you should explain them...
Ralph,
I have to apologize. I've been reading the posts too quickly lately and not taking time to digest them and I think some of my responses today have reflected that.
Your statement above does interest me though. Okay, so we agree that Zone V falls about 1/2 stop higher than the meter reading. I gather your opinion is that the "incorrect" speed rating that this causes in order to adjust the Zone V placement up is beneficial to exposure. Fine and good. Don't you think it would also be beneficial for people to understand this is how it is working? Adams claims the light meter reading is Zone V and Zone V is 18%. Why not correct this misconception?
Steve
No one has pointed out the flaws in the ASA (ISO) testing regime.
The modern ISO system allows a film manufacturer to use either the ASA/BS system or the DIN system for their tests.
With modern films the DIN system is accurate, but the ASA system is flawed, Kodak use the ASA system, Agfa always used the DIN system, Ilford publish an accurate ISO speed which is based on test more akin to the DIN system.
If Tmax 100 had to pass DIN tests it would be called Tmax 50and Agfa APX100 would be a 200 ASA film in the USA using Kodaks test methods.
Adox/EFKE haven't woken up they still use the pre-1961 system
Iann
Actually, the facts are in the standard and in the spec sheets of the exposure meters, as I already mentioned. Since you have all the standards, check ISO 2720:1974 and look for the calibration constants 'K' for reflection meters and 'C' for incident meters. You will find that the standard suggests a fairly large range for both, 10.6-13.4 and 240-400, respectively. As you may know Sekonic is using a K-factor of 12.5, but Minolta and Pentax are using 14.
As you can see, the standard has a wide range and major manufacturers don't even stick to it. You may call this an outdated standard (1974) but keep in mind that many currently used exposure meters are from that time or were designed with this standard being up-to-date.
Wikepedia suggests an approximation to correlate K to reflectance, which suggests that a K of 10 is around 12%, 12.5 around 16% and a K of 14 is around 18%. That's interesting, because AA was using a Pentax spotmeter! He was also referring to the Kodak Gray Card as an example of Zone V, which has 18% reflectance.
Apart from the meters not seeing percentages and how K = 14 is 13.6% (I showed the math), there is also the question as to the edition of the book and if that information was ever updated. He always had 18% from the first edition of the book (and the older meter's calibration was actually closer to 18%). There’s a question whether he updated that aspect in the later books or simply carry over the earlier value. I still maintain that is what happened with the pre and post 1960 standards and Zone System speed testing. Then there's just the probability that Adams was wrong (He was wrong about the relationship between the meter and the speed point). There’s no way of knowing for sure.Since AA used a Pentax spotmeter, it's not a misconception
but yes, it would be beneficial to understand better how exposure meters are working and what they are telling us.
Adox/EFKE haven't woken up they still use the pre-1961 system
To all who have posted on this thread:
Despite having some relevant academic background, there are parts of it that I currently don't understand, and in fact may not ever understand even if I put the time and effort into understanding that the posts and the subject deserve.
[...] there are parts of it that I currently don't understand, and in fact may not ever understand even if I put the time and effort into understanding that the posts and the subject deserve. [...]
Matt
That's because they formulated their films before 1961...
Ian
I suggest the following reading on the subject of film speed:
http://books.google.com/books?id=HH...AEwCA#v=onepage&q=fractional gradient&f=false
The fixed-density (0.1 > base+fog) was and is an accepted method by DIN, ASA and ISO. I don't see any reason why these methods should return different speeds.
You should check out the earlier discussions about attempting to compare personal testing results with the ISO standard speeds.Another example has to be the new Tmax400-2 which despite having the same 400 ISO rating as the old version has a higher effective film speed in use - closer to box speed according to many users and my own experience..
Grant,
I think you're confusing the ISO film speed with your personal results. You're absolutely right that different developers will create different speed results for the same film, but that doesn't mean there's a flaw in the standard. T-Max films did poorly in the ISO standard developer, so Kodak dd them in D-76 and gave them an EI. This prompted the change ievelopen the 1993 version of the standard where there was no standard developer suggested.
Steve
Steve;
Go here: http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f4043/f4043.pdf (page 9)
or here: http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f4017/f4017.pdf (page 11)
The point is that B&W emulsions vary in development rate and therefore take different processes.
PE
So if there's now no Standard developer then in effect there is no common ISO standard, last time I studied the test methods was back in the late 1980's.
Ian
Sorry, that's not how I interpret the information on their site. If the box says "ISO", they used the standard. And using "confuse" was a poor word choice on my part. Also, for some reason I got it into my head your first name was Grant.Ilford now base their film speeds on practical tests
The ISO also recommends that the film manufacturers set their film speed ratings slightly lower than the speed found through the ISO test procedure to help prevent under exposure.
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