Underrated film cameras

[Huss]

..
First of all ask yourself: “Who doesn’t look on eBay for price fixing”? And “who is interested in making money now and don’t want a lot of trouble and haggling?”.
That’s good as a starting point.

You forgot to add "and who has what I am looking for?'

 

[Helge]

You forgot to add "and who has what I am looking for?'

That’s a very difficult question to answer.
That $100 Hasselblad might pop up in the strangest of places.
You have to have a sixth sense for these things. Sometimes it can be a good idea to have a look in a thrift-shop in a wealthy neighborhood.
Other times it’s out in the countryside, at a flea market.
When you are visiting an elderly person it pays off to ask.
Just as with actual photography it’s a way of seeing, going that extra mile and not being afraid to take a chance.

 

[Huss]

..
When you are visiting an elderly person it pays off to ask....

Hypothetically speaking, an old person has a Leica M3 that you know in the 'real world' is worth $1000.
They have no idea as it's been so long, and forgotten. You offer them $10. They happily accept.
You ok with that?

 

[Mike Lopez]

If you fall for the hype, that is one you entirely your mistake. Hasselblads and Leicas are will made camera systems with options and flexibilities. If you had listened to me fifteen years ago when I posted on this website many many times that professional photographers were dumping great equipment at low prices to get the latest digital camera that would be obsolete in a month or two, you too could have had a Leica a Hasselblad with several lenses for less money that the top of the line digital Canon or Nikon. Some listened to me and cashed in, most laughed at me and now they are making up excuses why those same cameras should be avoided. The excuses are just excuses, not reasons. Your stated reasons are just excuses. In general the people who have listened to me over the years are much better off than those that did not. Which group do you choose to be in?

Ah, the hubris is back! We missed you when you vanished after being challenged in that other thread.

 

[Mike Lopez]

Sorry, hard to hear you over the sound of you patting yourself on the back. You might sprain something.

The fact that people were dumping film cameras by the ton due to the hype of Digital Solves All Photography Issues, does not change the fact that many cameras are commanding prices far above their relative worth to less expensive, but similarly capable, cameras.

Don't worry--he folds like a cheap tent when challenged.

 

[Helge]

Hypothetically speaking, an old person has a Leica M3 that you know in the 'real world' is worth $1000.
They have no idea as it's been so long, and forgotten. You offer them $10. They happily accept.
You ok with that?

That would depend entirely on the person, their situation, our relationship and what I sense they think it’s worth.
$10 is highly unlikely.

But it’s important to remember that these cameras prices is just hot air.
They have been payed off decades ago and the hole in the bank account eroded away even further back.
The designer and assembly line workers are dead or retired.
Any value they have today, is purely speculative. A sociological construction.

That said, I have had the chance to get some really choice gear a couple of times, where I couldn’t morally justify doing it, because I could see they needed the money far more than I needed to take some damn photos.

I have even helped them find out the value and find buyers on two occasions.
Never more gratitude than a “thank you” though.
Funny how entitled people feel about the value of stuff they didn’t even know they had and they possibly didn’t even buy.

Also if I got something cheap, I also always sell it cheap. If I sell it.
I hate gouging.

 

[Huss]

But it’s important to remember that these cameras prices is just hot air..

What's the difference between 'these camera prices' and prices for anything else?
All are driven by market factors, whether you like it or not.

Which is exactly why the only way 'you' are getting your deals, is by random luck over an undetermined time frame.
If you need a camera 'now' you will be paying that hot air price.

If you don't need a camera because you already have some, then you are not determining the market price.
Until you sell. And if you sell, let's see what price you will be asking for your cameras! I'm betting you will be asking that 'hot air' price that you despise so much!

 

[Huss]

I've always thought the Pentax LX was a very underrated camera. It's one of the few cameras I would call "elegant". Never got the attention the Big Two did, but it was a real sleeper.

..

I have the LX and disagree. I think it is very overrated UNLESS your thing is extremely long exposures. It is very nice to hold and fondle - feels much denser than the other Pentax manual focus SLRs with smoother edges - but it suffers from a worrisome record of reliability and fragility. Something I don't see at all with the Nikon F3 and Canon F1. It also is severely lacking in other ways such as not having AE lock.
In regular shooting my Pentax P30T is actually better - easier and quicker to load and it has AE lock! Its LEDs in the vf are also easier to see in daylight. As it takes the exact same lenses, it can be argued to be the better camera. It also costs about $20 in perfect shape, and if it breaks, hey it was only $20!

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

What a load of camerasturbation.

Who really cares if a camera is over-rated, under-rated, or accurately rated? If it works for you, and does the job you need it to do, and lets you make the images you want to make with it, then that is ALL that matters. If you're happy with a Holga, or a Petri, or a Minolta, or a Nikon, or a Leica, or a Linhof, or a Hasselblad, then that's what counts. Just make some damn photos and get over it.

 

[Huss]

What a load of camerasturbation.

Who really cares if a camera is over-rated, under-rated, or accurately rated? If it works for you, and does the job you need it to do, and lets you make the images you want to make with it, then that is ALL that matters. If you're happy with a Holga, or a Petri, or a Minolta, or a Nikon, or a Leica, or a Linhof, or a Hasselblad, then that's what counts. Just make some damn photos and get over it.

It can be helpful for many to know what cameras are overrated, as it can point them to something better for their use and budget.
This especially applies to new photographers. Right now my local shop said the Canon AE1 is selling for $350-$400! Because new photographers fell for the hype and think it is all that.
And the shop thinks that price is ridiculous, but that is what the market bears.

So, this isn't camerasturbation, but can be seen as an educational tool.

 

[eddie]

Hypothetically speaking, an old person has a Leica M3 that you know in the 'real world' is worth $1000.
They have no idea as it's been so long, and forgotten. You offer them $10. They happily accept.
You ok with that?

I've been fortunate to have been gifted a few nice items over the years (Rolleiflex 3.5f/ Kodak Retina IIIc kit/LPL 4550XLG, with Heiland Splitgrade System). The owners were aware of their value (or I informed them, in the case of the Rollei). They all said it was more important to give them to someone who they knew would use them than sell, regardless of price. The motivation for moving a piece of equipment often has more to it than money.

 

[eddie]

It can be helpful for many to know what cameras are overrated, as it can point them to something better for their use and budget.

When the rating comes from an internet source, and you don't know the level of knowledge of that source, is it really that helpful?

 

[BobD]

Right now K1000s are one of the "flavor of the month" cameras and clueless buyers are paying too much for them. Especially the last China model with plastic body parts and a viewfinder guaranteed to bleed black goop.

The early K1000 models are much nicer (if not abused) and more solidly built but the newbies don't know how to ID those. Or, better yet, get one of the more upscale K models like the KM, KX, K2 etc. for less than a K1000.

 

[Don_ih]

When the rating comes from an internet source, and you don't know the level of knowledge of that source, is it really that helpful?

For the majority of people, there is no better authority available than possibly unqualified but confident internet source. At least here, there is discussion (mostly bickering about irrelevant issues) among a number of possibly unqualified but confident internet sources....

 

[eddie]

For the majority of people, there is no better authority available than possibly unqualified but confident internet source. At least here, there is discussion (mostly bickering about irrelevant issues) among a number of possibly unqualified but confident internet sources....

There are people here who I'd trust with a recommendation. It's because I've seen the quality of the work they've shared, and read their posts which show their commitments to photography. "Unqualified but confident" is not an endorser I'd heed.

 

[Don_ih]

"Unqualified but confident" is not an endorser I'd heed.

It's possibly unqualified but confident. Someone without the time or energy or dedication required to research the poster would not be able to tell the difference between qualified and unqualified, if the post reads confidently enough - you know, seems competent. Also, competent large format shooters might be completely ignorant about the majority of miniature cameras. Medium format photographers might know nothing about large format. But a certain kind of personality will voice its opinion no matter its level of knowledge.

 

[eddie]

This site is ostensibly for dedicated photographers. What percentage of members would you trust with a recommendation?

 

[Huss]

When the rating comes from an internet source, and you don't know the level of knowledge of that source, is it really that helpful?

That's why threads like this are so helpful.

 

[Huss]

This site is ostensibly for dedicated photographers. What percentage of members would you trust with a recommendation?

Who would you trust for a recommendation? Where would you go? Your camera store with the pros there selling a K1000 for $300?

Or a site like this that says 'hey check out the Pentax KX. Like the K1000 but better, for 1/3 of the price'.

Discussion on threads like this are useful.

 

[btaylor]

Hypothetically speaking, an old person has a Leica M3 that you know in the 'real world' is worth $1000.
They have no idea as it's been so long, and forgotten. You offer them $10. They happily accept.
You ok with that?

I shiver to think you are bringing up the dreaded "I will pay you $10 for a Leica" thread!

 

[Helge]

What's the difference between 'these camera prices' and prices for anything else?
All are driven by market factors, whether you like it or not.

Which is exactly why the only way 'you' are getting your deals, is by random luck over an undetermined time frame.
If you need a camera 'now' you will be paying that hot air price.

If you don't need a camera because you already have some, then you are not determining the market price.
Until you sell. And if you sell, let's see what price you will be asking for your cameras! I'm betting you will be asking that 'hot air' price that you despise so much!

They are not currently produced products. No one is going bankrupt if the product is sold at less than production and marketing cost.

So it’s an antique in that sense.
But an unusual one as it supports and is part of a concurrent infrastructure and ecosystem of consumables and services.

So yes, some kinds of market forces... But market forces is not magic or special.
They can be just as “sick” as planned economy. Especially in small insular markets.

That’s one of the problems with eBay, and could be a problem with guys like the Finnish Camera Rescue.
IE that they get a crypto monopoly and pseudo cartel structures emerge.
To the benefit of very few and the detriment of most.

Random luck is fine if you are not in a hurry. Don’t put yourself in a situation where you are in a hurry more often than you absolutely have to.

Some of my favorite buys was on a lark, by blind luck. Not so much luck because of the price, more because I never would have gone for that particular item, if it wasn’t served right in my lab by luck.

This is of course just my word here, but I have never received substantially more for a camera than I payed.
I have paid “too much” sometimes, because I was caught by the moment or really, really wanted the thing, but on the few occasions when I sold said item, I’ve never tried to milk it.
On the contrary. I’ve often bought a camera, found a fault with it and sold it for substantially less.
Camera owning should never be speculation. What you really should be spending money on is film, paper and development.
The rest is just there to support that, for the good of us all.
One should be cognizant of that when selling.

 

[Huss]

I shiver to think you are bringing up the dreaded "I will pay you $10 for a Leica" thread!

That will get a summer bump in a few days...

 

[eddie]

Who would you trust for a recommendation? Where would you go? Your camera store with the pros there selling a K1000 for $300?

In the old days it would be photographers I knew. It often resulted in a loan for first hand experience. As for camera stores, if you had a good relationship with the store, it was a good source, also often resulting in a test drive.
I think the feel of a camera is important to the user. Something as simple as the size of one's hands can have an effect on how comfortable it is to use.
I have to admit I haven't bought a camera in a long time. In the last 10 years I think I've added four (Fuji GW/GSW IIs, a Holga Pano, and a 5x7 camera). I'm not a collector, nor do I believe a "better" camera will make me a "better" photographer.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Sorry, hard to hear you over the sound of you patting yourself on the back. You might sprain something.

The fact that people were dumping film cameras by the ton due to the hype of Digital Solves All Photography Issues, does not change the fact that many cameras are commanding prices far above their relative worth to less expensive, but similarly capable, cameras.

does not change the fact that many cameras are commanding prices far above their relative worth to less expensive, but similarly capable, cameras. And there is little we can do about that.

 

[Helge]

Tell you what are underrated cameras: The 2.8 Kodak Retinas.
Especially the Automatic III.
Wonderful little rangefinders.

Smaller leaf shutters has the advantage of not straining the conceptual mechanism more than what is reasonable.

Stuff like the Yashica Lynx 1000 or the Lynx IC 14 make central shutters with fifties and sixties materials work faster and move more mass than they like. Resulting in more wear and less reliability.

The Minister I and II are especially small and charming. With my II having the smoothest release I have ever felt on a mechanical camera.
That allows even real slow speeds to work handheld, somewhat making up for the slower lens.