Underrated film cameras

[henryvk]

Snobbery is offensive to Americans. Many of us are descended from immigrants who were booted out of their own countries by people "better than them". It's why we find our European counterparts to be so eminently punchable.

lmao

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_and_removal_from_the_United_States

 

[markjwyatt]

Well, let's just say that Leica cameras are not underrated and so should probably no longer be talked about in this thread. Aren't there already 50 or 60 threads dedicated to arguing about Leicas?

The OP linked article was actually about under/correctly/over rated cameras, not (as the title implies) about only under rated cameras. I am sure Leica fits into one of those categories. The OP thread also only referred to Mamiya C330 and under rating, so if you want to take a really narrow view you can not talk about any cameras other than the C330 (including C33, C3, C2, C@@, C220, etc.). I think most of us use the source article as the material for the discussion.

 

[Chan Tran]

I can't see how they considered the Mamiya C330 as underrated. The used price is quite high compared to the original purchase price. I actually think it's slightly overrated.

 

[grat]

lmao

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_and_removal_from_the_United_States

Yes-- because pointing to modern events under particularly conservative government policies nullifies the past.

It's also a false equivalence, as most (not all, and that's where I have some very strong disagreements with current policies) deportees are not legal immigrants, and most of the immigrants to the US in the late 19th and early 20th centuries weren't thrown out of their countries for being illegal immigrants.

And that brings us back to "eminently punchable".

 

[grat]

I can't see how they considered the Mamiya C330 as underrated. The used price is quite high compared to the original purchase price. I actually think it's slightly overrated.

As a C33 owner, I tend to agree. But the C series is (nearly) unique in being a TLR with interchangeable lenses and suitability for remarkably close-up work.

 

[Don_ih]

The OP linked article was actually about under/correctly/over rated cameras, not (as the title implies) about only under rated cameras. I am sure Leica fits into one of those categories. The OP thread also only referred to Mamiya C330 and under rating, so if you want to take a really narrow view you can not talk about any cameras other than the C330 (including C33, C3, C2, C@@, C220, etc.). I think most of us use the source article as the material for the discussion.

In case you didn't notice, there are completely acceptable reasons to judge Leica cameras as overrated or properly rated. The consensus seems to be that they are not underrated. No amount of arguing will change the minds of either camp regarding the actual value of those cameras. I'd consider that time to move on.

 

[henryvk]

Yes-- because pointing to modern events under particularly conservative government policies nullifies the past.

It's also a false equivalence, as most (not all, and that's where I have some very strong disagreements with current policies) deportees are not legal immigrants, and most of the immigrants to the US in the late 19th and early 20th centuries weren't thrown out of their countries for being illegal immigrants.

And that brings us back to "eminently punchable".

Your whole point is complete nonesense to begin with. 19th century immigrants to the US, the time of mass immigration, were not "booted out" of Europe but fled economic hardship and lack of opportunities in the then largely agrarian societies. To add insult to inury, nearly every European alive likely has an ancestor who was booted out of somehwere for failing to subscribe to the right denomination, so the small subset of US immigrants, those who were actually persecuted for their religious beliefs, are not exactly special compared to their European cousins.

You, sir, live up to the American stereotype of knowing nothing about anything *and* being proud of it.

 

[Don_ih]

But were their cameras over or underrated?

 

[grat]

But were their cameras over or underrated?

Well, snobbery certainly plays an element, and I think that's been well demonstrated. Immigration policies aren't really the thing to talk about here, nor are assumptions about education or history.

So let's go back to assumptions about cameras.

Most German cameras are overrated, over-complicated, and expensive to own and repair. Discuss.

 

[Sirius Glass]

My problem with the Leicas (and the Hasselblads), is that they can't possibly live up to the hype, and the current prices aren't justifiable. A Bronica SQ-A is not a 500CM-- but it's much, much closer in performance than the price difference would suggest.

My only rangefinder (Konica IIIA) was incredibly cheap until a month or two ago, when it suddenly jumped in price-- and is still, waaaaay less expensive than a comparable Leica-- and yet, it's frequently compared, in favorable terms, to the Leicas. I joke that it's like a Leica, but not as much.

If you fall for the hype, that is one you entirely your mistake. Hasselblads and Leicas are will made camera systems with options and flexibilities. If you had listened to me fifteen years ago when I posted on this website many many times that professional photographers were dumping great equipment at low prices to get the latest digital camera that would be obsolete in a month or two, you too could have had a Leica a Hasselblad with several lenses for less money that the top of the line digital Canon or Nikon. Some listened to me and cashed in, most laughed at me and now they are making up excuses why those same cameras should be avoided. The excuses are just excuses, not reasons. Your stated reasons are just excuses. In general the people who have listened to me over the years are much better off than those that did not. Which group do you choose to be in?

 

[Colin Corneau]

Wow....some powerful I-told-you-so energy happening ^^up there^^

 

[Don_ih]

In general the people who have listened to me over the years are much better off than those that did not.

That's true of me, too. People who do what I say always benefit. Part of being superior and clairvoyant.

 

[Sirius Glass]

That's true of me, too. People who do what I say always benefit. Part of being superior and clairvoyant.

plus I am incredibly handsome, intelligent and humble.

 

[Colin Corneau]

Anyway, much as it would be a cavalcade of fun to argue about 19th century European immigrants and such, to keep with the original question:

I've always thought the Pentax LX was a very underrated camera. It's one of the few cameras I would call "elegant". Never got the attention the Big Two did, but it was a real sleeper.

I could also add in much of the Minolta line -- especially the XK or the Dynax 9. Pretty amazing cameras, really.

 

[btaylor]

You, sir, live up to the American stereotype of knowing nothing about anything *and* being proud of it.

Okay, as an American that's f--ing funny! So true. It's one of our best qualities

 

[grat]

If you fall for the hype, that is one you entirely your mistake. Hasselblads and Leicas are will made camera systems with options and flexibilities. If you had listened to me fifteen years ago when I posted on this website many many times that professional photographers were dumping great equipment at low prices to get the latest digital camera that would be obsolete in a month or two, you too could have had a Leica a Hasselblad with several lenses for less money that the top of the line digital Canon or Nikon. Some listened to me and cashed in, most laughed at me and now they are making up excuses why those same cameras should be avoided. The excuses are just excuses, not reasons. Your stated reasons are just excuses. In general the people who have listened to me over the years are much better off than those that did not. Which group do you choose to be in?

Sorry, hard to hear you over the sound of you patting yourself on the back. You might sprain something.

The fact that people were dumping film cameras by the ton due to the hype of Digital Solves All Photography Issues, does not change the fact that many cameras are commanding prices far above their relative worth to less expensive, but similarly capable, cameras.

 

[grat]

Okay, as an American that's f--ing funny! So true. It's one of our best qualities

Except of course, that it's based on two assumptions-- one of which is that I don't know what I'm talking about. The other is the idea that you can lump all 330 million American citizens into one stereotype.

There are incredibly ignorant, and arrogant people throughout Europe and the USA-- and the correlation between "ignorance" and "arrogance" seems to be fairly high no matter where you are. This isn't really the place for that discussion, however, except as to how it relates to snobbery about particular cameras.

 

[Huss]

..In fact, in most cases, there are very few great photographers who are all that great at writing in general.

Wut, I insulted by that, I feel. Because, well, you do know pictures taking with Leica - wow weeeheee the best.

 

[Huss]

..

There are incredibly ignorant, and arrogant people throughout Europe and the USA-- and the correlation between "ignorance" and "arrogance" seems to be fairly high no matter where you are. ..

The term for that condition is "ignagorance".

Proud to not know diddly squat.

No matter what you think, we all are ignagorant in one way or another.
Pick a topic that you don't care one whit about...

 

[btaylor]

Except of course, that it's based on two assumptions-- one of which is that I don't know what I'm talking about. The other is the idea that you can lump all 330 million American citizens into one stereotype.

There are incredibly ignorant, and arrogant people throughout Europe and the USA-- and the correlation between "ignorance" and "arrogance" seems to be fairly high no matter where you are. This isn't really the place for that discussion, however, except as to how it relates to snobbery about particular cameras.

grat- It was a joke- apparently unsuccessful :-(

 

[grat]

grat- It was a joke- apparently unsuccessful :-(

Some weeks, I should probably avoid the internet. This is one.

 

[markjwyatt]

Some weeks, I should probably avoid the internet. This is one.

 

[grat]

 

[Craig75]

I dont even see what people are arguing about...

Underrated cameras list followed by a lot of excellent extremely good value Nikons and some pentaxes.... which are the usual recommendations here when someone says suggest to me a good cheap slr...

 

[Helge]

If you fall for the hype, that is one you entirely your mistake. Hasselblads and Leicas are will made camera systems with options and flexibilities. If you had listened to me fifteen years ago when I posted on this website many many times that professional photographers were dumping great equipment at low prices to get the latest digital camera that would be obsolete in a month or two, you too could have had a Leica a Hasselblad with several lenses for less money that the top of the line digital Canon or Nikon. Some listened to me and cashed in, most laughed at me and now they are making up excuses why those same cameras should be avoided. The excuses are just excuses, not reasons. Your stated reasons are just excuses. In general the people who have listened to me over the years are much better off than those that did not. Which group do you choose to be in?

That’s all nice and dandy but:

A. These cameras where never exactly inexpensive, and very rarely just gifted off or thrown out.
So you had to be pretty sure of what you wanted and if you really wanted it.

B. Many people picked up the interest just after prices started to climb again.

Most people who own Leicas and Hasselblads tend to be savy, going on greedy regarding what their equipment is worth.
Those bizzaro world deals was out there, but they where pretty rare and you generally had to be an insider to get them.
The “old geezers” generally just hold on to the gear if they can’t get what they want for it.

But. And there is a big but:
Those great deals are still out there, if you have enough patience, know where to look, how and who to ask.

Just looking the obvious places, you’ll quickly grow tired or have to pay whatever random, speculative number “the market” has decided something is “worth”.

First of all ask yourself: “Who doesn’t look on eBay for price fixing”? And “who is interested in making money now and don’t want a lot of trouble and haggling?”.
That’s good as a starting point.