TWO new film converting machines at Harman.

[MCB18]

127 again, it's not easy without spending a *lot* of money getting machinery together. Hand rolling isn't an option for people like Harman...it's different for the cottage industries which order 127 backing paper (probably from Harman) and hand roll.

As far as I know, Shanghai is the only place offering fresh backing paper and they have an MOQ of 1,000 rolls, which I can’t meet unfortunately. Otherwise I would offer 127 film as well.

 

[Agulliver]

Harman have sold 127 backing paper in the recent past, during the ULF when they also sell the 46mm film. Though I admit I don't recall the backing paper being available the last time around. What they lack is any machinery to put the two together on 127 spools.

 

[MCB18]

Harman have sold 127 backing paper in the recent past, during the ULF when they also sell the 46mm film. Though I admit I don't recall the backing paper being available the last time around. What they lack is any machinery to put the two together on 127 spools.

They sold blank 100 ft rolls of 120 backing paper for like $250 at one point… they don’t anymore because no one bought it.

 

[Agulliver]

I'm sure they sold 127 backing paper too. I do occasionally buy 127 as I have a few older 127 cameras that have come my way. So I'd love for HP5 or FP4 to be available factory produced. But I just don't see it happening. The market is in 35mm and to a lesser but significant extent 120.

 

[MCB18]

I'm sure they sold 127 backing paper too. I do occasionally buy 127 as I have a few older 127 cameras that have come my way. So I'd love for HP5 or FP4 to be available factory produced. But I just don't see it happening. The market is in 35mm and to a lesser but significant extent 120.

It’s never getting factory produced. Best you can hope for if you don’t want to put in work is someone finding a source for 127 spools and cutting down 120 backing paper to make it, which is pretty much how all 127 made today is manufactured.

 

[Agulliver]

It’s never getting factory produced. Best you can hope for if you don’t want to put in work is someone finding a source for 127 spools and cutting down 120 backing paper to make it, which is pretty much how all 127 made today is manufactured.

Yep totally in agreement. The only "factory" which might consider it in the future is Ferrania, who did mention that they'd saved 127 confectioning machinery along with the 135 and 120 but it will not be a high priority and I shall not be holding my breath. We're not ever going to be getting factory fresh HP5, FP4 or Delta films in 127....or indeed 220.


What Harman are doing, though, is cementing their position as a major player in 135 and 120 film...their own three brands and contract coating and/or finishing for other brands.

 

[MCB18]

Yep totally in agreement. The only "factory" which might consider it in the future is Ferrania, who did mention that they'd saved 127 confectioning machinery along with the 135 and 120 but it will not be a high priority and I shall not be holding my breath. We're not ever going to be getting factory fresh HP5, FP4 or Delta films in 127....or indeed 220.


What Harman are doing, though, is cementing their position as a major player in 135 and 120 film...their own three brands and contract coating and/or finishing for other brands.

If I could ever find 127 spools I would totally make 127, but I have no clue where to get the spools. I have plenty of paper tho.

 

[Agulliver]

@MCB18 127 spools come up on eBay, Etsy and I've seen some photographic film dealers offer them from time to time. It depends on how many you want to buy at one go, I suppose. eBay and Etsy sellers usually only have a small number at a time.

 

[MCB18]

I mean, yeah, but they also cost like $1-2 per spool… not really a good price I think

 

[Agulliver]

Seems a bargain to me? I suppose one could 3D print them but that would cost more.

 

[koraks]

3D print them but that would cost more.

No way. It's like 2g of filament and 50wH of energy. Total cost...IDK, 0.15 or so?

 

[MCB18]

No way. It's like 2g of filament and 50wH of energy. Total cost...IDK, 0.15 or so?

Was about to say, I can print them for like 0.10c at the library… problem is idk how good the tolerances would be, or if I could make the flanges light tight

 

[brbo]

No way. It's like 2g of filament and 50wH of energy. Total cost...IDK, 0.15 or so?

Now we just have to find a business with a 3D printers that would print 1000 spools for $300 (hey, that's a 100% margin!). Shouldn't take them more than a second or two...

3D printing = (very) low series. And it's not about (material) costs.

Was about to say, I can print them for like 0.10c at the library… problem is idk how good the tolerances would be, or if I could make the flanges light tight

Here.

 

[MCB18]

Honestly I think SLS would be the way to go for this. You can probably get a bunch from China for a reasonable price, and from what I hear, SLS has much better tolerances than FDM.

 

[Agulliver]

I don't really know how 3D printing works but a 127 spool weighs a lot more than 2g. Or does the mass of filament not equal the mass of the finished product?

I've had a friend 3D print stuff for me and it seems a rather expensive endeavour.

 

[koraks]

I don't really know how 3D printing works but a 127 spool weighs a lot more than 2g.

A 120 Kodak spool weighs about 3.75g. I assume a 127 spool would be in the same order of magnitude.

At JLC3DP prices start at around $0.30 for SLA resin, which would be appropriate for this application. It's a small and simple part, lead time not critical and the numbers would likely bump you down to attractive rates. For a couple of dozen to a couple of hundred items, this would most likely be a perfectly suitable option indeed.

3D printing = (very) low series.

I don't care what JLC considers as small series or what the technology is intended for; all I know is if you ask them to print 1000 parts, they'll do it for you.
Of course, at numbers starting at 1000 and upwards, other manufacturing technologies start to become attractive, especially if model shape isn't too complex.

Btw, I was responding to the comment about 3D printing costing more than the $1-2 you pay on eBay when you manage to find a lot of 5 spools or so. As an eBay substitute in this specific case, 3d printing is totally viable.

I've had a friend 3D print stuff for me and it seems a rather expensive endeavour.

IDK what your friend is doing to make it expensive. I've got a 3D printer sitting here that I use from time to time. It's not an expensive endeavor in terms of materials & energy especially for small parts.

 

[Agulliver]

It seems expensive because the filament is costly....and I know where she's getting it from so I know she's not paying over the odds. She's also never charged me for anything, just tells me how much it cost in case anyone else wants the same thing. Some of it has been photo related, some not.

I do think we can agree that a 127 spool is totally viable 3D printed. Unlike, say, a super 8 cartridge. A 3D printed 127 spool would be reliable and strong enough. And even at $1 per spool for an old factory made one, I don't see how that's extortionate. The issue with rolling your own 127 will always be backing paper.

 

[brbo]

I don't care what JLC considers as small series or what the technology is intended for; all I know is if you ask them to print 1000 parts, they'll do it for you.

Pretty interesting! I would never have thought that a 3D printing farm would do somewhat large series for such low margin items. JLC3DP would actually do from 1 to 10.000 127 spools for $0.3 per spool. Means that spool cost/availability should be of no concern for those that want to make 127 film.

 

[koraks]

It seems expensive because the filament is costly

A 1.1kg roll of PLA costs around €25 here. This will print 275 cores assuming they're 4g a piece. That's a little over 9 cents in material cost per core.

I would never have thought that a 3D printing farm would do somewhat large series for such low margin items.

I hear you; I thought the same way you did until a few years ago, but then became aware of people running 3D printing 'farms' that just dumbly churn out the same stuff all the time. It works out in the end; the labor cost in production are minimal, leaving mostly energy, material and capital investment. All of these are very manageable especially for a larger player in China. Then again, if we're going to talk labor ethics, sustainability etc. I'm sure things will turn very unpleasant very quickly. and you might wonder what the true social and environmental cost of those cheap items are. But of course, we generally avoid this.