Trying to understand the reasoning behind different schools of thought regarding EV in determining exposure

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Fragomeni

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This is a technical question that’s been coming up for me and I haven’t been able to wrap my head around why there are different understandings of EV and it’s role in exposure. The two schools are essentially that EV is either constant or relative and treated as such depending on how your meter works. I was taught and have always treated it as a constant which has always worked very well for me in how I work. I work primarily in analog processes (film and alternative processes) and I meter using analog and digital spot meters (Pentax V and Pentax Digital). I also use concepts of the Zone System when considering how meter readings relate to tone in the negative and print.

The following is gonna be a little long as I attempt to describe the issue as I’m seeing it. I’m trying to be very specific so that I have the best chance of getting clarity.

With an analog light meter (and the same holds true for the digital variants that I’m familiar with using), settings for aperture, shutter speed, and ISO are all set independently as dials on the meter. They are not mechanically or electronically connected and they do not effect the EV read by the meter. You read the EV measure of light, through the meter, in the area of scene you want to determine exposure for (these meters measure a 1 degree area or light so that you can compare exact illumination of different parts of a scene), and then you place that EV value provided by the meter on the meter’s scale and you get a combination of exposure settings that are correct. Using the Zone System method with this is very simple and involves only shifting where the EV value falls on the scale relative to the zones of the Zone System (Zone V being the measured EV value centered on the scale with lighter and darker zones adjacent to that value).

What I just described makes complete sense to me and has served me well. Using that system and meters that work with it, EV is constant. Changing exposure settings does not effect the EV value read by the meter. This is where I get confused as to why some meters behave differently. Say for example I measure light on an 18% grey card in bright sunlight. I use one of my spot meters and let’s say I get an EV reading of EV 15. I can change the ISO setting on the meter to my heart’s content (maybe I decided to change from ISO 100 film to ISO 800) and none of that changes the fact that the light hasn’t changed and so the EV reading remains the same. Changing from ISO 100 to ISO 800 has no bearing on the light falling on the grey card and I can make that change on my light meter dial and see how the correct exposure settings will change by the 3 stop difference but when I measure the light falling on the card again, the EV value will be the same because the light has not changed. It’s all still correct and the EV value has never changed. To describe the scenario another way, let’s say I set my meter to ISO 100. I measure the grey card and get EV 15 and I see that I can use f-16 @1/125. Now I decide to change to ISO 800 (three-stops faster than ISO 100). I set ISO 800 on the dial of the meter and I measure the light on the grey card again in lighting that has not changed and is exactly the same as when I measured it previously. The meter of course still reads EV 15 because the light is the same and it doesn’t care about the exposure settings I may or may not change on the dials (aperture, shutter speed, and ISO). This makes sense to me.

Now the confusion. Many common digital meters, the kinds that measure incident readings and reflected, will show a change in the measured EV reading when the ISO is changed. Using equivalent lighting and testing criteria as described in the previous example, with the meter set to ISO 100 it will read EV 15. Changing the ISO on the meter to ISO 800 will then cause the meter to denote a change to EV 18 even though the lighting remains unchanged. For some reason, this style of meter is programmed to change the EV output of identically lit scenes when the ISO setting is changed. This makes no sense to me and I’m hoping to better understand why.

If anyone with a solid understanding of why the different treatments are occurring could explain what’s happening and why there is different behavior under the exact same conditions, that would be very helpful and very appreciated.
 

Sirius Glass

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Wot Chan Tran done did sez! what he sez.PNG ==> For your Pentax meters the EV is really LV and is equal to the EV only for ISO 100.

Both the Pentax Spot Meter and the Pentax Digital Spot Meter are based in ISO 100 regardless of the set ISO. So if one takes the 1 degree reading and uses the Zone System adjustments then the f/stop and shutter speed ONLY are correct. That setting is then transferred to the camera and the resulting EV is used to adjust for filters, extension tube, or bellows. Do not take the spot meter reading EV and make the filter et al adjustments on the meter because those adjustments are based on ISO 100 and not on the ISO set on the meter. I learned this at Alan Ross' class at Yosemite when I lost a series of photographs there because I made the mistake of using the EV instead of the exposure itself.
 

Paul Howell

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ISO 100 it will read EV 15. Changing the ISO on the meter to ISO 800 will then cause the meter to denote a change to EV 18 even though the lighting remains unchanged.

EV is not an absolute measurement of how bright the lighting is, which is measured by lumens falling on a surface which is expressed as lux. When you change a given ISO in this case from 100 to 800 which a 3 stop change, your meter changes the EV from 15 to 18 a 3 stop change to give you the proper reading for the lighting and film used.
 

reddesert

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EV denotes a f-stop and shutter speed combination - an exposure. It's not a fixed amount of light.

LV for Light Value denotes an amount of light.

A meter measures LV, and if you set an ISO, then you can find the suggested exposure for that amount of light. Because the LV and EV scales are similar-looking integers, it's easy to think that the meter is measuring EV, and it might even be labeled EV, but it isn't; it measures LV.

This is the same thing as what the other responders are saying, just phrased differently.
 

Sirius Glass

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EV denotes a f-stop and shutter speed combination - an exposure. It's not a fixed amount of light.

LV for Light Value denotes an amount of light.

A meter measures LV, and if you set an ISO, then you can find the suggested exposure for that amount of light. Because the LV and EV scales are similar-looking integers, it's easy to think that the meter is measuring EV, and it might even be labeled EV, but it isn't; it measures LV.

This is the same thing as what the other responders are saying, just phrased differently.

Exactly. My experience in Yosemite was painful because I lost some photographs that I have not been able to get the same light again.
 
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Fragomeni

Fragomeni

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For your Pentax meters the EV is really LV and is equal to the EV only for ISO 100.
Both the Pentax Spot Meter and the Pentax Digital Spot Meter are based in ISO 100 regardless of the set ISO. So if one takes the 1 degree reading and uses the Zone System adjustments then the f/stop and shutter speed ONLY are correct.
EV denotes a f-stop and shutter speed combination - an exposure. It's not a fixed amount of light.

LV for Light Value denotes an amount of light.

A meter measures LV, and if you set an ISO, then you can find the suggested exposure for that amount of light. Because the LV and EV scales are similar-looking integers, it's easy to think that the meter is measuring EV, and it might even be labeled EV, but it isn't; it measures LV.

These replies are starting to help clear this up in my head, I think. So, with whats been said so far, my Pentax spot meters are actually reading LV and not EV despite their labeling EV on the meters. This isn't surprising considering conventions can change over time. So then if I'm understanding, the Pentax meters I'm used to are based on ISO 100 and at that ISO value, LV and EV are equivalent? So LV 15 is the same as the EV 15 reading on the meter. If I change the ISO, the LV reading the meter is actually taking remains constant (LV being constant but EV not being so) which is why nothing changes in the meter. But in reality, if I wanted to understand the actual EV after changing the ISO, I'd have to add three stops to the LV reading to get the actual EV? So since LV remains 15, after a change from ISO 100 to ISO 800, the EV is actually EV 18?
 

Oren Grad

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Here's the definition of EV from the Focal Dictionary of Photographic Technologies:

"Function of the relative aperture and exposure time settings of a camera such that EV = 3.322 x log10(n2/t) where n is the relative aperture and t is the exposure time in seconds."

In other words, EV is a concise expression of the amount of exposure you give the film or sensor; it says nothing about how the film or sensor responds to the exposure. Thus, strictly speaking, ISO setting is irrelevant to EV. EDIT: But see Chan Tran's point below.
 
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faberryman

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Just turn the dial until the thingy lines up. That’s your exposure.
 

Sirius Glass

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Just turn the dial until the thingy lines up. That’s your exposure.

But one has to set the exposure on the camera and then adjusting for any filters.
 

Chan Tran

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Here's the definition of EV from the Focal Dictionary of Photographic Technologies:

"Function of the relative aperture and exposure time settings of a camera such that EV = 3.322 x log10(n2/t) where n is the relative aperture and t is the exposure time in seconds."

In other words, EV is a concise expression of the amount of exposure you give the film or sensor; it says nothing about how the film or sensor responds to the exposure. Thus, strictly speaking, ISO setting is irrelevant to EV.

And because of that you must use different EV value for the same scene brightness if you change the film speed.
 

snusmumriken

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Now the confusion. Many common digital meters, the kinds that measure incident readings and reflected, will show a change in the measured EV reading when the ISO is changed.

Just turn the dial until the thingy lines up. That’s your exposure.

I have much sympathy with both POVs. I threw away a Gossens Digisix: it infuriated me for several reasons, but one was that the sole visual indication of light intensity (EV) was different depending what ISO you selected. Now I just use the two red arrows in my M6 viewfinder, and to hell with it.
 

Sirius Glass

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I have much sympathy with both POVs. I threw away a Gossens Digisix: it infuriated me for several reasons, but one was that the sole visual indication of light intensity (EV) was different depending what ISO you selected. Now I just use the two red arrows in my M6 viewfinder, and to hell with it.

That would not help when one needs a spot meter reading of a particular area.
 

MattKing

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I have much sympathy with both POVs. I threw away a Gossens Digisix: it infuriated me for several reasons, but one was that the sole visual indication of light intensity (EV) was different depending what ISO you selected. Now I just use the two red arrows in my M6 viewfinder, and to hell with it.

Next time, send it my way. My Digiflash is a wonderful meter.:whistling:
I expect that all this confusion arises because too many people have messed up their thought processes by spending too much time with the Zone System and thinking about candles and how much light is coming from the moon! :angel:
For a large portion of the photographic world though, the film speed is set once and all that is needed from the meter is an indication of what setting combinations should be used on the camera.
 

Chan Tran

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And thus the Pentax meter is not correct by not changing the EV number when you change the ISO. So unless you set the ISO at 100 the shutter speed and aperture combination is not the same as the EV number on the dial.
 
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Fragomeni

Fragomeni

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Here's the definition of EV from the Focal Dictionary of Photographic Technologies:

"Function of the relative aperture and exposure time settings of a camera such that EV = 3.322 x log10(n2/t) where n is the relative aperture and t is the exposure time in seconds."

In other words, EV is a concise expression of the amount of exposure you give the film or sensor; it says nothing about how the film or sensor responds to the exposure. Thus, strictly speaking, ISO setting is irrelevant to EV. EDIT: But see Chan Tran's point below.

This is exactly my baseline of understanding. Although the clarifications around EV vs LV are I think the root of this confusion. I actually remember the same being told to me years ago but I guess that drifted from my memory until now.

And because of that you must use different EV value for the same scene brightness if you change the film speed.

Yes, your (and other's) explanations are helpful. I've been thinking about EV essentially as LV and seeing it labeled on the meter as EV is where my confusion was. This was clarified to me years ago but I didn't remember until I saw your explanation so thank you.

I have much sympathy with both POVs. I threw away a Gossens Digisix: it infuriated me for several reasons, but one was that the sole visual indication of light intensity (EV) was different depending what ISO you selected. Now I just use the two red arrows in my M6 viewfinder, and to hell with it.

Haha, I feel your pain.

I expect that all this confusion arises because too many people have messed up their thought processes by spending too much time with the Zone System and thinking about candles and how much light is coming from the moon! :angel:
For a large portion of the photographic world though, the film speed is set once and all that is needed from the meter is an indication of what setting combinations should be used on the camera.

Haha, let's avoid a tangent here. All of these things are tools and serve their own purpose within the context of specific work. For context in my case and why this is coming up now, I'm working with the daguerreotype process and have been referencing an exposure table made many years ago. The tables instructions state to set the meter to ISO 100 and then consult the table relative to the EV reported by the meter. This was the original author's attempt to streamline exposure in a process that the concept of ISO does not apply to in the same ways that it applies to conventional film (there is no constant speed and the speeds you get change primarily based on sensitization time, density, temperature, sublimation rate of iodine under various conditions, and of course the phases of the moon). The author was actually describing a relationship of LV to exposure at a specific sensitization level of the plate which is what my meter was reading at all along because of its representation of LV which is confusingly labeled EV. Woof. All in a good days fun I guess.
 

Bill Burk

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I think it would help to have a light meter and camera that support Exposure Value.
 

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craigclu

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It's been some years now but I recall my Rolleiflex days and EV models being handy to use with my L-398 meter of the time. I was reading this thread to remind me of those functions. I don't recall any complications and it felt intuitive at the time..... Need to dig some old gear out and refresh the process in my head.
 
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I have blissfully managed to spend my entire photographic career ignoring EV completely. All I need is a meter that reads consistently and linearly and some set of calculating rings/wheels to find a set of possible aperture and shutter speed combinations for the value I choose to base my exposure on.

In other words, I don't really care what the numerical value that the meter shows on its display is as long as I can use it as input for the exposure calculator.

Heck, I could probably get by with a meter that just gave me shutter speeds for f/32. I'm rarely a stop one way or the other from there anyway.

I use Pentax digital spot meters and like the ability to read small areas of the scene and the simplicity of the exposure calculator.

Filters get read through or the factor gets applied after deciding on the initial exposure. For what it's worth, one can use the exposure calculator rings on the meter to apply the filter factor as well; just twist the LV ring by the appropriate number of stops or use an adjusted EI for a given filter (Sirius, I don't really understand what problem you had...).

Bellows extension factors and adjustments for reciprocity failure I carry with me as tables. Again, a kind of exposure calculator that I can just plug in a value and read the adjusted result. My exposure record has all the steps needed to find the final exposure in the proper order: initial metered exposure without any changes, then filter factor, bellows extension factor and reciprocity adjustment. At no point in my determination of a final exposure do I concern myself with EV...

Best,

Doremus
 

Sirius Glass

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I have blissfully managed to spend my entire photographic career ignoring EV completely. All I need is a meter that reads consistently and linearly and some set of calculating rings/wheels to find a set of possible aperture and shutter speed combinations for the value I choose to base my exposure on.

In other words, I don't really care what the numerical value that the meter shows on its display is as long as I can use it as input for the exposure calculator.

Heck, I could probably get by with a meter that just gave me shutter speeds for f/32. I'm rarely a stop one way or the other from there anyway.

I use Pentax digital spot meters and like the ability to read small areas of the scene and the simplicity of the exposure calculator.

Filters get read through or the factor gets applied after deciding on the initial exposure. For what it's worth, one can use the exposure calculator rings on the meter to apply the filter factor as well; just twist the LV ring by the appropriate number of stops or use an adjusted EI for a given filter (Sirius, I don't really understand what problem you had...).

Bellows extension factors and adjustments for reciprocity failure I carry with me as tables. Again, a kind of exposure calculator that I can just plug in a value and read the adjusted result. My exposure record has all the steps needed to find the final exposure in the proper order: initial metered exposure without any changes, then filter factor, bellows extension factor and reciprocity adjustment. At no point in my determination of a final exposure do I concern myself with EV...

Best,

Doremus

That is because you are not using a camera such as Hasselblad which allows on to set the exposure and adjust the shutter speed and aperture ganged together showing the EV. Once set, then one can adjust the EV for filters, then change the shutter speed and aperture with one movement. You really need to get a good camera [READ: Hasselblad] it understand.

When I used the EV numbers from the Pentax Digital Spot Meter and the adjusted for the Orange or R23 filters the exposures were severely under exposed using ISO 400 film because of design assumptions by Pentax. When I instead used the shutter speed and aperture on the Hasselblad alone or adjusted for the filters, the expose was correct.
 
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Yeah, I've seen and worked a bit with cameras that have EV-ganged shutter speeds and aperture, but ended up always setting things separately anyway simply because that's what I do with everything else. I understand your mistake now.

These days all I use are LF lenses in regular shutters with independent speed and aperture settings. I'm plodding along with my "inferior" equipment somehow though :smile:

Doremus
 
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Wot Chan Tran done did sez! View attachment 304004 ==> For your Pentax meters the EV is really LV and is equal to the EV only for ISO 100.

Both the Pentax Spot Meter and the Pentax Digital Spot Meter are based in ISO 100 regardless of the set ISO. So if one takes the 1 degree reading and uses the Zone System adjustments then the f/stop and shutter speed ONLY are correct. That setting is then transferred to the camera and the resulting EV is used to adjust for filters, extension tube, or bellows. Do not take the spot meter reading EV and make the filter et al adjustments on the meter because those adjustments are based on ISO 100 and not on the ISO set on the meter. I learned this at Alan Ross' class at Yosemite when I lost a series of photographs there because I made the mistake of using the EV instead of the exposure itself.

So let me see if I understand this right. when I use my Minolta IIIf lightmeter, I usually only look at aperture and shutter speed after setting the ISO to the film's ISO. SO if I leave it on EV instead of aperture, the EV will change as I change the ISO?
 
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That is because you are not using a camera such as Hasselblad which allows on to set the exposure and adjust the shutter speed and aperture ganged together showing the EV. Once set, then one can adjust the EV for filters, then change the shutter speed and aperture with one movement. You really need to get a good camera [READ: Hasselblad] it understand.

When I used the EV numbers from the Pentax Digital Spot Meter and the adjusted for the Orange or R23 filters the exposures were severely under exposed using ISO 400 film because of design assumptions by Pentax. When I instead used the shutter speed and aperture on the Hasselblad alone or adjusted for the filters, the expose was correct.

EV is so simple you screwed up your pictures in Yosemite. :redface:
 
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