Tripod recommendations needed for a Pentax 67

DREW WILEY · Jun 12, 2019

I wasn't trying to imply that isn't a good head for other applications. It's just not really up to the task for this particular application. I have one of those big old seemingly rock solid Bogen 5lb cast heads and it's problematic even atop a 16lb maple tripod for this specific use. Just go over to the Pentax Forum and read the complaints from people who just don't get it. But it's these 300 mm lenses which have rekindled my admiration for the P67 system. So you could at least try taking one of those Manfrotto-Bogen polygonal plates and quick-release adapter and mounting right atop the tripod top, without any head. It works far better in this case.

GLS · Jun 13, 2019

I use a Gitzo GT3532LS and an Arca-Swiss Z1 ballhead. I have had zero stability issues with the Pentax 6x7 and this setup, although I have not yet tried it with anything longer than 165mm.

jeffreyg · Jun 13, 2019

My 350mm lens weighs in the neighborhood of 3lbs. With the adjustable camera and lens attachments I pictured above it is easy to balance it over the tripod (Bogen 3047 head on a Bogen 3035).

DREW WILEY · Jun 13, 2019

Are any of you even listening? Using a 165 on a P67 is a little league game compared to stabilizing the 300. I should know. I do both all the time. The 165 is a great lens, but a mouse by comparison in terms of torque vector. And long lenses on many other kinds of MF cameras do not pose the same logistical problem either. Tossing around advice based on what you've successfully pulled off with a Hassie or Mamiya or Bronica isn't going to help a lot in this case. Then there's that third category, people thinking they are getting crisp shots when they are really not. If you're going to spend the bigger bucks for the nearly 4 lb 300EDIF, you're wasting most of that investment if you get less than superlative performance. The regular 300, which seemingly hasn't changed optically since Takumar days, is a quite decent lens, especially for black and white work, now obtainable at incredibly low pricing, but still deserves especially solid support. Of course you can improve things with all kinds of secondary struts or even a second tripod; but that's far more of a headache than what I have prescribed.

abruzzi · Jun 13, 2019

I have to agree with Drew. The 300 (not the EDIF) is longer than the 200 and much heavier. It’s way bigger and heavier than the 150 I have (never used either 165 so I can’t compare.)

Edit: for comparison:

300/4: 186mm long, 1430g weight
165/2.8: 98.5mm long, 835g weight.

(And for comedy sake)

800/4: 611mm long, 17700g weight

DREW WILEY · Jun 13, 2019

It's not just the lens weight, but the nature of vibration in the system overall. I've taken pretty good shots with both 300's just rolling up a coat or hat, putting it atop a car roof or fence rail, resting the long lens on it rifle-style, and shooting at a high shutter speed. But a tripod is necessary for most situations, and ironically, any less than an ideal tripod or head setup can amplify vibration. My older brother once sold as well as used Rollei and Linhof gear, but preferred the ergonomics of P67, and would borrow mine. But when selling a Rollei SL66, to demonstrate the smoothness of its mirror and shutter, he'd set the camera on a table, place a dime on edge atop it, and trip the shutter with a cable. The dime didn't even tip over. If you tried that with a P67, the dime would fly off and land in the next county.

Alan Gales · Jun 13, 2019

I own a Wehman which is a light weight 8x10. If I was shooting the Pentax I would use my Ries J100 which is the same tripod that I use for my 8x10. I respect Drew's opinion but I would use my Ries double tilt head. It's more of a platform than a head.

If you want something lighter weight then I would go with a carbon fiber tripod. I'm not a ball head fan either but if I had to use a ball head I'd want one of those FLM ball heads where you can control each axis separately. If you are interested in FLM, Ari is a member here and would be happy to talk to you about FLM heads and tripods.

http://www.flmcanada.com/contact.html

AgX · Jun 14, 2019

-) There are ball heads of various ball diameters. When I referred to them I spoke of those at "same load capacity" as axis heads.
By this I wanted to say "same friction".
Under this prereqisite a ball head should be more stable than an axis head.

-) With long lenses and the inherent leverage one can attach a brace from one tripod leg to the lens. Or use a second, lighter tripod to stabilize the lens.

AgX · Jun 14, 2019

I found it hard to compare tripods unless actually standing next to each other.

guangong · Jun 14, 2019

Have I only been imagining that I have been successfully using my 300mm Olympic Sonnars with my Linhof Ball Head for 50 years? I should mention that the Sonnars and my 300mm Pan-Tele Macro Kildare have rotating collar with tripod socket,which centers weight, thus reducing torque. However, friends who have extra long lenses without collars have made them with PVC pipe from Home Depot. I do also use pan-tilt heads...depends upon how I am using lens. But nothing beats a ball head for subjects moving erratically.
Also, for 35mm and MF cameras, the mirror can be raised before releasing shutter in order to reduce vibration. This is even possible with Leicaflex SL and SL2 if deft and light fingered.
My Olympic Sonnar is so over engineered, I doubt if any other 300mm lens come close to it in weight.

guangong · Jun 14, 2019

Kilar, not Kildare. Victim of iPad auto correct.

jeffreyg · Jun 14, 2019

I forgot to mention in my posts that I have used my "gizmo" bracket with my 350 + a 2x (Hasselblad) with very good results including a subject a mile or so away. I think what works with it is that the weight can be equally distributed over the tripod with all three legs supporting about the same weight. The tripod : Bogan 3035 with a 3047 head which can take approximately 15-20 lbs.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

http://www.sculptureandphotography.com/

DREW WILEY · Jun 14, 2019

Weight-bearing is not the whole issue! The dampening properties (or lack thereof) of the tripod system are also important, because torque and vibration issues are additive. That's why I like both the mass and absorbing qualities of big wooden tripods for this kind of application. Thin metal tripods are the worst, especially if used with a type of metal head with a pinch point which further amplifies any vibration present, ball heads being the worst in an engineering sense. All this is just common sense. I do sometimes use a big carbon fiber tripod for this P67/300 combintation, but have it equipped with a center hook for hanging a bag of rocks if I need to give it supplementary weight in the wind or on spongy ground. I carefully tested all kinds of options. Even when I used a 4lb cast Bogen pan/tilt head atop myh big wooden Ries tripod and seemed to get good crisp shots, upon comparison with enlargements from my current way of doing it, with the camera bolted right to the tripod platform and no intervening head, the improvement in image precision is quite evident. Because anything you add above that platform is somehow going to act as its own torque vector in combination with the overhanging lens weight itself. This is basic. But some of you think you can make gold out of lead, or invent a time machine that defies the laws of physics. All kinds of things work, but some things work better than others. ... I might add, in response to J., that working with a long lens on a Hassie vs P67 might be analogous in certain respects, but when it comes to getting bounced around by potential vibrations, a Hassie is like riding a calf in a rodeo, while a Pentax 6x7 is like riding a bull !

guangong · Jun 14, 2019

DREW WILEY said:
Weight-bearing is not the whole issue! The dampening properties (or lack thereof) of the tripod system are also important, because torque and vibration issues are additive. That's why I like both the mass and absorbing qualities of big wooden tripods for this kind of application. Thin metal tripods are the worst, especially if used with a type of metal head with a pinch point which further amplifies any vibration present, ball heads being the worst in an engineering sense. All this is just common sense. I do sometimes use a big carbon fiber tripod for this P67/300 combintation, but have it equipped with a center hook for hanging a bag of rocks if I need to give it supplementary weight in the wind or on spongy ground. I carefully tested all kinds of options. Even when I used a 4lb cast Bogen pan/tilt head atop myh big wooden Ries tripod and seemed to get good crisp shots, upon comparison with enlargements from my current way of doing it, with the camera bolted right to the tripod platform and no intervening head, the improvement in image precision is quite evident. Because anything you add above that platform is somehow going to act as its own torque vector in combination with the overhanging lens weight itself. This is basic. But some of you think you can make gold out of lead, or invent a time machine that defies the laws of physics. All kinds of things work, but some things work better than others. ... I might add, in response to J., that working with a long lens on a Hassie vs P67 might be analogous in certain respects, but when it comes to getting bounced around by potential vibrations, a Hassie is like riding a calf in a rodeo, while a Pentax 6x7 is like riding a bull !

I really enjoy your comparitive analogy of Hassy vs Pentax.
All my experience with 300mm lenses is with Hasselblad 2000FCM, Leicaflex, Nikon F and Visoflex. Should also mention that I use 400mm Telyt ( another heavy chunk of glass and metal) with all these cameras, including Hasselblad with both ball head and pan-tilt, depending upon application. My Gitzo is heavy metal...long before fiber carbon...bought so long ago I have no idea what model. I do remember that at the time it was very expensive.

Proud Male · Jun 14, 2019

I have had great success with the SLIK line. They issued the U212SX years ago and this year I called SLIK America to get some information on a SLIK 500 I was interested in from Ebay. In about 10 minutes the SKIK guy at SLIK America to double my SLIKs by buying the 500 and fixing up/restoring my old tripod.

Apparently, they make a real long term commitment to their customers. Giving him the number of my tripod made almost 30 years ago led to a repair list that I had seen on the internet. see It must have been luck that had Glen answer the phone as he was the one who did the repairs that I saw on Youtube. Glen assured me he could walk me through any problems I encountered. He also was nice enough to note items I would likely not need to replace. As much as I like U U212 it fails in comparison with my 500. The new Tripod weighs 5.5 pounds which I will grant is an issue for many of you. But I use a power wheelchair and she rarely complains about the weight that we put on her. The 500 is quite a bit heavier then the U212 which I guess would weigh around 4 pounds. But all that beefiness will provide you with truly great stability. I think other good products also offer the ability to open up even wider, then lock back into position..I guess my 500 will putlast me -- SLIK makes them that good.

Finally, the best part I have noticed is that you can find heavily discounted New Condition SLIK 500s for around $100 to $150. I got a super deal after a few months of watching for a new one for $50. It was from a store that only sells items that have some freight damage to the boxes, unopened until you get yours. Mine was still sealed in SLIK shrink wrap and there was no damage to the Tripod. I get the same 3 year warranty as well. Get yourself a SLIK 500, and it will handle your 300 mm lenses.You will have to judge if your camera itself will handle the weight.

DREW WILEY · Jun 14, 2019

Any 5 lb tripod is featherweight with respect to the current topic, and generally not in the league of what is realistically needed in this particular instance concerning 300mm P67 lenses. The bigger problem is the nature of attachment at the top. Have you ever even worked with a Pentax 6X7 with a 300mm lens on it, Proud Male? Doesn't sound like it. That Slik might be fine for shorter P67 lens usage. Have you ever thought of making a mounting attachment directly to your power chair?

AgX · Jun 15, 2019

Concerning Slik, I had a nasty experience when I approached a guy from Slik Japan at Photokina complaining on a lock.

John51 · Jun 15, 2019

When making an adapter bar to spread the weight with heavier lenses, is a ring on the lens end really needed?

With the camera mounted on one end of the bar, the lens would only need to rest on some form of cushion. Maybe shaped as a semi circle.

DREW WILEY · Jun 15, 2019

I've done it both ways, John. But since the 300 EDIF comes already equipped with a lens ring, I take advantage of it.

AgX · Jun 16, 2019

John51 said:
Maybe shaped as a semi circle.

A semi circle typically yields only one point of contact, a V will yield two points, thus vertical and lateral control.

markbau · Jun 17, 2019

DREW WILEY said:
Let me put this in perspective. The shortest regular Tele lens for the P67 is 150mm; the 165 is only slightly heavier, and the 200 only 20% heavier. All of these take a 67mm filter and work well with common tripods like a Gitzo Reporter or Tiltall with good midweight pan-tilt heads. But once you go to the next focal length of 300, you're talking about double the lens wt and 82mm filters, a whole new ballgame! I wasn't kidding when I stated it takes a more solid support than many 8x10's, because all that wt and torque is forward off-center, and you've got a potential vibration amplification problem due to the big SLR mirror slap. Mirror lock-up really helps; but for some subjects like wildlife you might want to keep your eye on the action. That Manfrotto 405 head is a useless TOY for this kind of application. I'm not trying to be rude, but save you wasting money or being disappointed.

Thanks for the honest answer. I have never gotten a sharp photo with the 300mm on a tripod. Unbelievably, when I have handheld it, I've got some sharp photos. I avoid the lens now but am thinking of going with the later one with the tripod mount or giving it one last chance with the Manfrotto lens support. I don't think Pentax has ever made too many mistakes but not having a tripod mount on the older 300mm was one of them! You may have just saved me $1000!

DREW WILEY · Jun 17, 2019

Like I already stated, I have both 300's and routinely get very sharp shots from both. But if you can afford the substantially higher price for the 6X7 300EDIF, it's worth it, especially for color photography. For use with the 6x7 body, I use both the collar and camera thread itself, unitized on a solid bar. But when adapting a Nikon body to this big lens, the lens collar alone is quite sufficient. I don't own a Pentax 645, so don't know the effects in that case.

Proud Male · Jun 21, 2019

DREW WILEY said:
Any 5 lb tripod is featherweight with respect to the current topic, and generally not in the league of what is realistically needed in this particular instance concerning 300mm P67 lenses. The bigger problem is the nature of attachment at the top. Have you ever even worked with a Pentax 6X7 with a 300mm lens on it, Proud Male? Doesn't sound like it. That Slik might be fine for shorter P67 lens usage. Have you ever thought of making a mounting attachment directly to your power chair?

No, as I had to retire at 45 due to health issues I cannot afford that type of equipment. However, I doubt you ever created a 14 dimension data base including the necessary coding to squeeze out sparcity -- look at all the non-filled space there is in our simple 3D universe, then consider the implications of 11 more dimensions.

When you are talking about ball heads supporting this weight, simple physics decrees that there is going to be significant vibrations, because the strength of movement in multiple dimensions along the ball is gained by sacrificing the dimensional locks you get with a heavy duty 3 way pan head.

In no way was I trying to say the Zomie would hold that weight. I am not sure I would trust it with my remote flashes outside -- it really is flimsy. But my SLIK 500 has the ability to extend the angle the legs will go out. If you take it and set the legs so that they go out at 45 degrees versus the more normal 25 to 30 degrees tripods go out, you are going to have a very solid platform. It's legs are far thicker and stronger than my very old SLIK U232. I do not work for SLIK, but I love their product support. For example I just ordered parts last month for a tripod they have not made in over 20 years. The ability to repair verses replace plays a significant role when you are trying to do something we both truly like -- getting great shots.

The wheelchair I use is now close to 20 years old, but it has been repaired several times. It weighs nearly 400 pounds with part of that weight being a great suspension. I can jump a 5 inch gutter with it, which makes it truly great in my book. But the springs that make that possible make it more like a rocking chair than a stool. It can easily be tilted back and forth and even a little side to side. That means I cannot get a good shot mounted from it. But, I do not need to raise my tripods up to 6 feet (my 500 can go up to 5'8" with the post all the way up and the legs at normal spread. Widen the legs out a bit, and I can easily roll up to it by removing 1/2 my center post. Of course I cannot hike around like you folks, but weight isn't a factor -- my chair never complains about 10 pounds more for a heavier tripod and several lenses.

Thanks for your suggestion.

DREW WILEY · Jun 21, 2019

OK, springs, I understand. For many years there was a fellow who shared my office who was the brother of one of the three founders of what soon became the whole ADA movement. We we a major supply house for contractors, and that included a number who specialized in access remodeling, both commercially and residentially. Then a warehouse manager's wife, who also once worked with us, became wheelchair bound, and he tricked out her chair so they she could outrun him on his bicycle during their weekend outings together. I still run into them sometimes doing that, though they're both in their 70's now. For quite awhile he had access to a specially equipped yacht and began a club for handicapped persons where they actually became the sailors. He's retired from that now, but someone else has stepped in and the necessary funding still arrives; yachting isn't cheap! My best friend from high school made his living before retirement tricking out chairs. But I am afraid of "self-driving" automobiles. I saw those all the time when I commuted the freeway - a car driving itself right into someone else's car while the driver was futzing with a cell phone or laptop or trying to read a book at the same time.

Sirius Glass · Jun 21, 2019

I found that Induro tripods https://www.indurogear.com/, in particular their carbon fiber tripods are much less expensive than Manfrotto and Giotto tripods and can handle 35mm, MF and LF camera equipment with ease and great convenience. I have used them for years.

Tripod recommendations needed for a Pentax 67

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