Tri-X v HP5+ and Tri-X v Delta 400 - The Naked Photographer Comparison Tests

[grat]

Hang on... Regardless of your opinions, piling on an individual is exactly what I was complaining about-- whether you name them or not. Personal attacks are bad, ok?

Disagreement is one thing-- going after someone for who they are, is just not acceptable.

 

[radiant]

Hang on... Regardless of your opinions, piling on an individual is exactly what I was complaining about-- whether you name them or not. Personal attacks are bad, ok?

Disagreement is one thing-- going after someone for who they are, is just not acceptable.

This I have been questioning before from moderators & Sean and I got that kind of response that they are OK. "Don't be too sensitive" etc. is the response.

I really think this as community problem, because there are so many wonderful people here. It is really really shame that these rare harbors are just left to sink. The moderator activity here is close to nil.

But if you post off-topic content to a thread, those are edited out. Phew, we are golden!

 

[Craig75]

If Greg has been chased off here / felt it was too hostile / rude for him to stay then that's a complete disgrace. He was very nice very knowledgeable guy with an excellent youtube channel to help spread darkroom skills.

I'm not surprised the extremely knowledgeable members of the board are more and more reluctant to share info or answer questions.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

re. Crawley 400 speed film article - here is the pdf provided by John. A reprint from an older version of the British Journal of Photography website.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

"Off topic" covers a myriad of sins. Ad hominem arguments are off topic, for instance. Politics and religion may be off topic. Offensive remarks are off topic. We don't always post a more specific reason for deleting a post.

We don't have enough moderators to read everything, and we're spread out over the globe in various time zones. Except for Sean, we're all volunteers with lives and day jobs, and we check in when we can. A fair amount of our activity is dealing with spam that makes it through the filters, scams reported from private messages, and looking over posts from people who are on post approval. If you see something that looks problematic, please use the "Report this post" button, and we'll take a look at it. We don't delete or edit everything that gets reported, but the number of reports help to alert the team as to where the trouble spots are, especially when they seem to be in an innocuous thread about the quality of ISO 400 films or whether one needs to use a stop bath, which is a surprisingly contentious topic.

 

[Sean]

Hi All,

In addition to what David said, many in this thread are disgusted with what was going on, but looking at our records we have no reported posts in this time frame. I would encourage everyone to report posts if they spot this sort of behaviour. It is anonymous and the best way to bring attention to it. We try to get to them and try to moderate the best we can. Sometimes we get it right, sometimes we don't, but we DO care deeply about these issues.

*Every post contains a "Report this post" link at the bottom of the post.

We have been working harder to bounce disruptive members, but with the volume of traffic here it gets a bit "whack-a-mole" and it seems to come and go in waves. We're working to build out the moderation team to increase coverage as well. Please contact me if you are interested. Some of the qualities we look for in a moderator:

-a long track record as an upstanding member
-cool headed
-is objective when moderating
-would never uses moderation powers for personal reasons
-team player, more likely to seek advice and discuss with the team than making unilateral decisions
-understands moderating or higher action is necessary but a last resort
-wants the tone of the community to be friendly and positive, and wants to lend a hand

Thanks,
Sean

 

[foc]

re. Crawley 400 speed film article - here is the pdf provided by John. A reprint from an older version of the British Journal of Photography website.

Thank you for the download.

 

[pentaxuser]

re. Crawley 400 speed film article - here is the pdf provided by John. A reprint from an older version of the British Journal of Photography website.

Great stuff Tom and much appreciated work by you and the original contributor who had the good sense and foresight to download it as a pdf

pentaxuser

 

[faberryman]

Meh, leave the grandpa alone. He can be hilarious with the CAPITALIZED name and only 8x10" listed, a true living caricature of a film photographer. His profile clearly needs to be labeled properly though, to warn newcomers.

Is this comment acceptable to the community?

 

[faberryman]

He must have asked the moderators to obliterate him as much as is possible or allowed. Same over on the Large Format Photography Forum it appears.

I am a member of the Large Format Photography Forum, and do not remember seeing Greg active there. Were members there critical of his methodology and conclusions? Perhaps he has decided not to participate on any forums.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Personal attacks are destructive. They ruin the thread and the forum.

 

[faberryman]

Pointing out shortcomings in testing methodology, and saying that you have reached opposite conclusions in testing and personal experience are not personal attacks.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Pointing out shortcomings in testing methodology, and saying that you have reached opposite conclusions in testing and personal experience are not personal attacks.

I agree. Disagreement with other's methods are not personal attacks. It's when you attack the person, his character, for example, that it's a personal attack.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Meh, leave the grandpa alone. He can be hilarious with the CAPITALIZED name and only 8x10" listed, a true living caricature of a film photographer...

Yeah, how dare anyone question a poster who knows everything about everything? Like for example the size of 120 roll film (see my post # 118 in this thread).

Anyone who's (not "whose") interested to see an effective way of dealing with Drew ought, should they be sufficiently patient/persistent, review the following thread link:

https://www.largeformatphotography....hp?71322-f64&p=1321449&viewfull=1#post1321449​

Someone like Greg whose valid posts/work are under attack needs to not concede. After a sufficient number of steadfast replies, it becomes obvious to readers which posters blow smoke.

...If you see something that looks problematic, please use the "Report this post" button, and we'll take a look at it. We don't delete or edit everything that gets reported, but the number of reports help to alert the team as to where the trouble spots are...

In my opinion, this approach is itself problematic. It's Sean's Web site to administer as he sees fit, but laxity in enforcing rules only encourages violations. The number of reports is irrelevant. Either a behavior is allowed or it isn't. There's no difference whether one or one thousand members notify the moderation team. If someone violates a rule, whether one moderator or more is "on duty," immediate action is appropriate. I have seen multiple clear examples of religious and political transgressions take place outside the Soap Box that were ignored despite being reported, often multiple times over a span of days. Only after I intentionally called out these things in the threads did moderators act, and a few times not even then. When "police" ignore the rules, there are no rules.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Having quickly read through the Crawley article, his main experience seems to be that ILFORD DELTA 400 and HP5+ are closer in performance than he expected, although I'm not sure the criteria are fully explained.

 

[eddie]

I think it's a shame when people, who are trying to contribute, leave because their contribution gets caught up in the crossfire of a pissing contest.

 

[BrianShaw]

Context is everything, as are personalities (unfortunately).

 

[DMJ]

I think we cannot expect the moderators deal with every single issue given the traffic of this site. I also think that too much moderation can borderline censorship if not done carefully. How about ignoring personal attacks or off topics comments and let the thread stay on topic ? Could a vote system be implemented so we can optionally sort comments in descending order from most voted ? Most people visit this forum looking for technical answers so a voting system can help sorting the replies on topic leaving the endless discussions at the bottom and less visible.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I would personally prefer the forum to remain discussion based rather than change to a 'Q&As'.

 

[faberryman]

I think we cannot expect the moderators deal with every single issue given the traffic of this site. I also think that too much moderation can borderline censorship if not done carefully. How about ignoring personal attacks or off topics comments and let the thread stay on topic ? Could a vote system be implemented so we can optionally sort comments in descending order from most voted ? Most people visit this forum looking for technical answers so a voting system can help sorting the replies on topic leaving the endless discussions at the bottom and less visible.

You don't need a voting system. If you find someone annoying, just put him on Ignore.

 

[eddie]

I think a voting system would make this place instagram-like, with people searching for "likes" and "thumbs-ups".

 

[DMJ]

I don't think so, there are many forums with a like option and don't look anything like Instagram and people don't like sharing their pictures here. I see too often members asking other member to please show a picture. And don't we "quote" and agree to comments ? It's the same as liking.
The vote and sort system should be optional so the member can decide how to see a thread.
To be honest, I don't know what is best for this particular forum but I do participate in other forums that have more features for the user and work great.

What Sean and the moderators propose? Can any sort of web technology be implemented to solve this very important issue ?

 

[DREW WILEY]

I can intermittently post technical details and raise question marks about methodology rather quickly while just taking breather breaks from other tasks. Call it multi-tasking if you wish. Fiddling around to post web images would be disruptive to my schedule. I am highly involved in images. It's called printmaking, and might not be synonymous with what some people here regard as a common denominator of visual information. So be it. People who are seriously interested in samples of my work can arrange an appointment somewhere. I'll even frame it prior to shipping. Tire kickers not welcome.

If others like to share pictures on the web, that's fine. But where is there any rule stating it's mandatory to participation on this particular forum?

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

We've discussed "like" buttons and such, but every discussion forum of this type that has instituted such a system, in my opinion, has gone downhill, because it attracts people looking for clicks rather than substantive commentary.

Regarding "enforcement of the rules," one of the things that gives this place it's character, for better sometimes, and sometimes for worse, is that we value the forum ethos over a set of rules. We don't try to hammer down everything that seems to be outside the norm, and we sometimes moderate subjectively on the basis of the impact of a discussion or post on the community ethos, and we consider whether deleting a series of posts or editing a thread will actually make things better or whether it will stir up even more controversy. We don't want people to feel that this is a police state, because that's not a good forum ethos either, and sometimes rafts of people have washed up here from other forums where there is a sense of excessive moderation.

There are some topics or individual posters who might be under observation for some time before we act on them, because we can imagine various outcomes, and we want to see where the discussion goes and give people a chance to redeem themselves upon reading responses from other members of the community, and sometimes we may have to ignore a minor problem to take care of some larger issue. If we had more moderators, we could devote attention to more issues.

We also try to take a range of views into account, including those we may individually disagree with, and what one person sees as actionable, another may not. We don't often vote on moderation decisions, but try to maintain a consensus.

 

[MattKing]

As someone new to the Moderation gig, but a long time supporter of the ethos that David refers to, I can assure you that it looks easier than it is.
It is fun though dealing with the spammers directly!