Tri-X rodinal and skies ;-(

Deleted member 88956 · Oct 14, 2020

ericdan said:
I mean the film is underexposed two stops. Sorry about that. The grain is really visible in the grey part of the sky on the first print above.

In what you showed grain is visible on ALL prints. Grain quality is as anything subjective impossible to agree on. So to me if there is a difference, it is subtle and not at all as dramatic as you feel about it. I'm not sure what it is you value most in evaluating aesthetics, but there are some great examples of images with grain that may wouldn't even try to call it "brutal" but far worse. Yet such images have their strength. While grain size, shape and sharpness will affect visual evaluation, and it will differ to varying degree from one material/chemistry combo to another, such comparisons are not apples to apples in most cases. Then again, this is how I feel about it, and that does not mean yours is wrong.

ericdan · Oct 14, 2020

vedostuu said:
So you pushed Tri-X to 1600 with Rodinal? Isn't that a winner combo for maximizing the grain?

Yes that’s right. I would like to keep using it at 1600. I like the contrast and shooting flexibility I get with it. Just didn’t like the grain.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 14, 2020

ericdan said:
Yes that’s right. I would like to keep using it at 1600. I like the contrast and shooting flexibility I get with it. Just didn’t like the grain.

However, in your OP you asked for options at box speed. If pushed two stops, grain is going to be big even with a solvent developer.

ericdan said:
What other options for sharp photos at box speed?

ericdan · Oct 14, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
However, in your OP you asked for options at box speed. If pushed two stops, grain is going to be big even with a solvent developer.

Great observation. Thinking one thing, typing another.

removedacct1 · Oct 14, 2020

ericdan said:
Yes that’s right. I would like to keep using it at 1600. I like the contrast and shooting flexibility I get with it. Just didn’t like the grain.

If you want to persist in using Tri-X and insist that you need to push it two stops to get "flexibility" then you have little choice but to learn to like the outcome, which means harsh grain in areas of continuous tone. I swear, you will get MUCH nicer results if you use T-max 400 instead.

Anon Ymous · Oct 14, 2020

400TX at 1600 in stock Xtol is beautiful IMHO.

Lachlan Young · Oct 14, 2020

paulbarden said:
If you want to persist in using Tri-X and insist that you need to push it two stops to get "flexibility" then you have little choice but to learn to like the outcome, which means harsh grain in areas of continuous tone. I swear, you will get MUCH nicer results if you use T-max 400 instead.

The only reason people seem to insist on pushing for some bizarre notion of 'flexibility' is because they seem to be under the impression that you must use the fastest shutter speeds all the time for whatever strange bundle of insecurities 'street' photography is today. Cartier Bresson etc managed just fine with films rated at best around 200...

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 14, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
Cartier Bresson etc managed just fine with films rated at best around 200...

What film does eminent Japanese street photographer and winner of the prestigious Hasselblad award, Daido Moriyama, use and at what EI?

Lachlan Young · Oct 14, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
What film does eminent Japanese street photographer and winner of the prestigious Hasselblad award, Daido Moriyama, use and at what EI?

From what I've been able to find out over the years: whatever was most immediately available - his camera choices tended to be second tier review models given to him by his friends who published him in the various Japanese photo/ camera magazines. An educated guess says Tri-x and Neopan SSS were likely film choices - and I recall reading of the use of D-76 at raised temperatures. I suspect that Eikoh Hosoe (whom he assisted) & William Klein's aesthetics drove his choice of materials. Hosoe seems to have used PX, TX, SSS & developed in D-76 or Konica's Microphen equivalent. You might be amazed at how radically different a negative that is correct for G2 on a diffusion enlarger will look on G4 on a condenser enlarger. I don't think Moroyama has ever worried about pushing film for the purposes of handholding the camera at high shutter speeds

ericdan · Oct 14, 2020

paulbarden said:
If you want to persist in using Tri-X and insist that you need to push it two stops to get "flexibility" then you have little choice but to learn to like the outcome, which means harsh grain in areas of continuous tone. I swear, you will get MUCH nicer results if you use T-max 400 instead.

Saw your media page. TMY in xtol looking smooth! I do very little still life photos. Maybe give TMZ in xtol another try.

ericdan · Oct 14, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
What film does eminent Japanese street photographer and winner of the prestigious Hasselblad award, Daido Moriyama, use and at what EI?

He also shot with a 50mm which means he was farther away. Much less people on the streets then. So he could be farther from his subject. wonder how he would do now with a 35mm in Tokyo and 200 speed film. But then the streets are empty now and he’s HCB.
Seriously though, I’ve had enough blurry shots. I’ve shot Tri-X at 400 with a yellow filter in xtol 1:1

I liked that combo a lot. It was great on vacations in Thailand and Vietnam etc. Not in Tokyo.
Maybe the answer is to shoot different films in different locations. Or at least have different processes. In Tokyo I don’t have much sky in my photos.

ericdan · Oct 14, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
What film does eminent Japanese street photographer and winner of the prestigious Hasselblad award, Daido Moriyama, use and at what EI?

He’s on digital with a massive grain filter now lol. True though. He used high speed film and pushed it. Not a huge fan of his work but I like the feel. You’re right. Street shots could benefit from this combo. Thinking more and more to just use xtol for when I know I need it. Was gonna try and keep things simple. Oh well.

StepheKoontz · Oct 14, 2020

paulbarden said:
I can't imagine a worse combination than Tri-X and Rodinal, especially if we're talking about 35mm format.

T-max 3200 in rodinal I shot part of a wedding with that combo and the bride loved it.

grat · Oct 14, 2020

Subtitled "Singing in the Grain"...?

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 16, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
I don't think Moroyama has ever worried about pushing film for the purposes of handholding the camera at high shutter speeds

No doubt it is the aesthetics that drive the technical choices of good artists and not the other way around. "Tri-X 400 pushed to 1600 with yellow filter" seems to be a street photography fad promoted by Eric Kim. However, I guess one reason for street photographers to shoot at ISO 1600 or higher, apart from high contrast gritty aesthetic that push processing gives, is to get more depth of field or save yourself from precise focusing when the light and circumstances don't permit it.

ericdan · Oct 16, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
No doubt it is the aesthetics that drive the technical choices of good artists and not the other way around. "Tri-X 400 pushed to 1600 with yellow filter" seems to be a street photography fad promoted by Eric Kim. However, I guess one reason for street photographers to shoot at ISO 1600 or higher, apart from high contrast gritty aesthetic that push processing gives, is to get more depth of field or save yourself from precise focusing when the light and circumstances don't permit it.

Don’t know Kim. why does he promote yellow filters? Doesn’t make sense to me as they are mostly not available new anymore. What’s he getting out of promoting second hand filters?

grat · Oct 16, 2020

ericdan said:
Don’t know Kim. why does he promote yellow filters? Doesn’t make sense to me as they are mostly not available new anymore. What’s he getting out of promoting second hand filters?

Wait, what? There's a wide variety of yellow filters from all the major manufacturers, most of which are labeled "For B&W Photography".

Deleted member 88956 · Oct 16, 2020

ericdan said:
Don’t know Kim. why does he promote yellow filters? Doesn’t make sense to me as they are mostly not available new anymore. What’s he getting out of promoting second hand filters?

i
Got to check out on line retailers, start with Amazon for Yellow filters then. And Red, Green, Blue. Nothing really changed except now you have a lot cheapos from China in addition to well established brands.

ericdan · Oct 17, 2020

Oh OK, sorry. Here in Japan I never saw any new ones in the stores. Bought a set of yellow orange red and UV used and never looked into it again.

PhotoJim · Oct 17, 2020

I just ordered a pair of Tiffen yellow filters (67 and 77mm) from amazon.ca for my Bronica SQ system, so that I can't forget to move filters from other cameras' bags. They are certainly still available.

#29 deep red seem hard to find, but they were never all that common even back in the day.

relistan · Oct 20, 2020

I realize it's not cheap any more, but if you want Tri-X at 1600 and want controllable contrast for printing, Diafine is a pretty solid way to go. I didn't see anyone mention that earlier in the thread. Rodinal stand developed at 1+100 for an hour is also a pretty good bet if you want to stick with Rodinal. It will lower the contrast but preserve highlights pretty well. Neither of these will be light on the grain at EI1600 if you really need that but should be a bit lighter than Rodinal 1+25 or 1+50

ericdan · Oct 20, 2020

relistan said:
I realize it's not cheap any more, but if you want Tri-X at 1600 and want controllable contrast for printing, Diafine is a pretty solid way to go. I didn't see anyone mention that earlier in the thread. Rodinal stand developed at 1+100 for an hour is also a pretty good bet if you want to stick with Rodinal. It will lower the contrast but preserve highlights pretty well. Neither of these will be light on the grain at EI1600 if you really need that but should be a bit lighter than Rodinal 1+25 or 1+50

You think a lower dilution of Rodinal would make a noticeable difference?

Lachlan Young · Oct 20, 2020

ericdan said:
You think a lower dilution of Rodinal would make a noticeable difference?

Not as much as various poorly controlled claims want you to think. From recollection, the Agfa US Rodinal data suggested that 1+100 with Tri-X at 20 mins (anything over 20 mins with Rodinal is not going to achieve much) hit Agfa's suggested 'normal' gamma, which was not far off the contrast Kodak suggested would be acceptable for EI1600 on a condenser enlarger. Rodinal is not going to give you ideal shadow speed, so treat with caution. Diafine doesn't really get you any more shadow speed than Microphen/ Xtol etc - the claimed EI adds the 1-stop underexposure latitude on & hopes no one will worry too much in low light situations - Diafine originated in the era of the old pre-1960 ASA speed ratings, where you could legitimately claim a 2-stop boost on an ASA 200 film & be within a 1/3 stop of where the same film (400 post 1960) would potentially be in a PQ developer like Microphen (Ilford claimed it could get a 400 speed film to EI 650).

Mainecoonmaniac · Oct 20, 2020

Ralph Gibson loves his photos sharp and grainy. He used Rodinal. If you want something close to the tonality of Rodinal but less grain, try HC-110. Some fine grain film developers have sodium sulfite and the fine grain comes from dissolving the edge of the grain.

ericdan · Oct 20, 2020

I used to use Microphen to push Tri-X but unfortunately that now costs $38 dollars per liter in Japan. Yes, 38! I’ve brought it up a few times here and wrote ILFORD about it. Must be a mistake when ID11 and the rest of their developers are more or less in line with prices outside of Japan. That’s that.
HC-110 was made “illegal” in Japan back in 2015. Used it before I used Microphen.... sad story. Let’s hope xtol stays in Japan.

Tri-X rodinal and skies ;-(

Deleted member 88956

Deleted member 88956

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