Tri-X in rodinal, because I don't know better?

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df cardwell

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Pure STANDING development is a limited technique, if one is processing different formats of film.

If you want to be ABSOLUTELY SAFE:

With 35 mm, one can let the film rest between agitation cycles for up to 10 minutes in developers like Rodinal 1+100, FX-2, PyroCat, and so on. There will be little density difference from top to bottom of the negative.

120 FILM wants shorter cycles. I've never had problems with 5 minute cycles, I've had few problems with 15 minute cycles, and can depend on density problems with 30 minute cycles. Why do 120 films show density
differences more than 35 mm ? Simply because it is a small density difference is more apparent on a larger piece of film.


If one develops sheets in a tray, rest cycles can be longer, in a tube or in a tank, shorter.

I've settled on 5 minute rest cycles for three reasons:

- Most of the potential tonal benefits of standing agitation are achieved: higher shadow density, lower highlight density, accurate midtones.

- Most of the acutance effects possible with that developer and film combination are achieved.

- Nothing bad can happen.



There is no point to use longer agitation cycles to gain acutance with a particular developer. Rodinal will always be more acute than D-76, and less acute than FX-2. If you want to achieve exagerated Acutance FX, yes Rodinal can do it. Let it sit still for an hour. It is easier to get that look from another developer. You don't benefit in revealing more information on the negative, it just takes on a freakish countenance.

There is no point in using longer cycles to change the curve shape. Rodinal will give optimal curve shapes with 5 minute rest cycles. Strongly compensated shoulders, which are the norm with Xtol, are not really possible with Rodinal, so there is no point in attempting to make Rodinal exhaust itself. It is far easier to expect it to give a long scale negative with printable highlights, and design one's printing technique to do so.


But this is all about how I balance my technique. It is important to shoot and process in a way that makes using different formats easy. I have to be productive, and don't have time to waste fussing over experiments: I'm a photographer not a chemist.

Tri-X is a very good partner to Rodinal. You may expect good results with 1+50 ~ 1+200. For me, there is no advantage using a greater dilution than 100. There is often the simple advantage of time with a dilution of 50. SO, I tend to stay between 50 and 100.

.
 

df cardwell

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Gerald Koch said:
With Agfa out of business, isn't experimenting with Tri-X in Rodinal akin to "rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic". Granted there is still some Rodinal in the pipeline but wouldn't it be better to try Calbe R09 instead since its still being made?

I have a feeling there is far more Agfa Rodinal in the USA pipeline than R09.

I have enough Rodinal in stock for 1 ~ 2 years. I have no need to experiment with anything: I know what will happen when I develop my film: every roll, every sheet, every day.

Buying Agfa Rodinal buys me time, which I believe is always a good bargain.

In the next couple years, I will learn if it will continue to be available.
I will have time to see if J & C is reliable; if Calbe stays in business; if it is easier to make my own Rodinal-like developer. I'm happy that I can solve the problem at my own pace, in my spare time. I absolutely do NOT want to switch developers today, tomorrow, or next week... even if they are closely similar in performance.

Over the past couple decades, I've been hurt by products leaving the marketplace ( Kodak Elite, Agfa Portriga ) and seen the futility of relying on 3rd parties to supply essential products. I keep a small stock on hand and experiment regularly. When I find a good product, I take in a small supply at a good price. I dislike anxiety, and am not very good at panic. I have no idea what I'll be printing on in 5 years, but I'm not worried about it.

If there is no paper available, I guess I'll throw my Leicas into the skating pond. Until then, I make pictures.

.
 

Gerald Koch

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Several US suppliers are now out of Rodinal and J&C is temporarily out of R09.

Now looking for the cheapest source for paraminophenol.
 

srs5694

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Gerald Koch said:
Now looking for the cheapest source for paraminophenol.

When I looked a while ago, the only source I found was Photographer's Formulary. Confusingly, it's listed under the "A" category in their alphabetical ingredients list (as "p-aminophenol hydrochloride"). Note that every "Rodinal-type" formula I've seen calls for p-aminophenol hydrochloride, not p-aminophenol, which PF also sells. PF sells p-aminophenol hydrochloride in 10g, 100g, or 1 lb sizes for $4.95, $12.95, or $41.00, respectively. They've got the other items required for Rodinal-type developers, too, of course, although the best price I've seen for sodium hydroxide is Red Devil Lye from the supermarket. If you use a potassium hydroxide version of the formula, the best price I've seen is from Summer Bee Meadow, which is a hobbyist soapmaking outfit; their price with shipping is less than Photographer Formulary's price without shipping, but they only sell in 2-pound quantities (per order). I just placed an order with them a couple of days ago, but it's not yet arrived, so I can't comment on their reliability from personal experience. The Chemistry Store comes in close behind, and has a somewhat broader selection of other items, if you're looking for more than Rodinal ingredients. I've ordered a couple of times from them, and they're reliable, although they charge a "handling" fee ($3.50, IIRC), which tends to increase prices a bit, especially on small orders.
 

Gerald Koch

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A Rodinal type developer can be made from either p-aminophenol or from the hydrochloride salt. When using the salt you just need to add more sodium or potassium hydroxide. The free base is cheaper and you need less.

The first formula that I used called for the HCl salt and had you make the free base by neutralizing it with sodium carbonate. This also removed the dark brown oxidation products resulting in a creamy white precipitate of the free base. The resulting developer was a pale violet color rather than the brown of today's Rodinal or R09.

BTW, I get potassium metabisulfite from a wine making site for around $6 per kilo.
 

derevaun

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About PF's rodinal formula: I noticed they say its shelf life is six months. That's a little shorter than Agfa's Rodinal, which is closer to six decades :smile: Anyway, what's the deal with that?
 

jim appleyard

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derevaun said:
About PF's rodinal formula: I noticed they say its shelf life is six months. That's a little shorter than Agfa's Rodinal, which is closer to six decades :smile: Anyway, what's the deal with that?

My guess is that they want you to buy more. It's sure to made from the same, if not very close to, recipe as the original.
 

srs5694

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derevaun said:
About PF's rodinal formula: I noticed they say its shelf life is six months. That's a little shorter than Agfa's Rodinal, which is closer to six decades :smile: Anyway, what's the deal with that?

The instruction sheet packed with Agfa Rodinal states that it lasts "at least 6 months once opened" (or words to that effect; I'm to lazy to go check the precise wording just now). It could be that PF is being similarly conservative in its claims. I should emphasize, though, that I don't know this for a fact; I've never used PF's Rodinal-style developer.

Gerald Koch said:
A Rodinal type developer can be made from either p-aminophenol or from the hydrochloride salt. When using the salt you just need to add more sodium or potassium hydroxide. The free base is cheaper and you need less.

Interesting. If using the non-hydrochloride version of para-aminophenol is cheaper but results in a chemically equivalent developer once mixed, I wonder why the formulas I've seen (such as this one and the one in Anchell's Darkroom Cookbook) specify the hydrochloride version. How much less hydroxide mixture would you need? (Enough less to justify mixing up a smaller quantity of the hydroxide solution?)
 

Gerald Koch

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srs5694 said:
Interesting. If using the non-hydrochloride version of para-aminophenol is cheaper but results in a chemically equivalent developer once mixed, I wonder why the formulas I've seen (such as this one and the one in Anchell's Darkroom Cookbook) specify the hydrochloride version. How much less hydroxide mixture would you need? (Enough less to justify mixing up a smaller quantity of the hydroxide solution?)
The molecular weight of paraminophenol (pap) is 109.10 and that of the hydrochloride salt (pap.HCl) is 145.6. The difference in weight is the weight of the hydrogen chloride.

Paraminophenol is what is called an amphoteric substance, ie one that can behave as either and base or an acid. The hydrogen atom on the OH group of pap is sufficiently acidic to form a compound with a strong base such as sodium or potassium hydroxide. This compound is called a phenolate since pap can be considered as a derivative of phenol (commonly called carbolic acid). When everything has reacted in the manufacture of Rodinal what you have is a solution of pap phenolate and potassium sulfite.

One molecular weight (mole) of pap.HCl contains one mole of pap and one mole of HCl (hydrogen chloride). In the Anchel formula half of the potassium hydroxide is used to make the phenolate and the other half is used to neutralize the hydrogen chloride in the pap.HCl. Therefore if you start from the pap free base you would need only half as much potassium hydroxide.

I suspect that the reason that pap.HCl is used is because it is soluble in water whereas pap is not. However, during the preparation of the Anchel formula, as you add the hydroxide the pap free base will first precipitate out of solution and then redissolve as the phenolate. Since this is the case you might as well start with the pap free base.

I have several formulas for various pap developers (not all are Rodinal types) which use either pap or pap.HCl.
 

Gerald Koch

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BTW, the formula said to be the original Rodinal by Elie Shneour uses potassium metabisulfite and sodium hydroxide rather than the Anchel version which uses sodium metabisulfite and potassium hydroxide. The Shneour formula also uses paraminophenol hydrochloride whereas the MSDS for present day Rodinal says it is made from paraminophenol. Years ago Rodinal was much lighter in color while today it is dark brown. This may be due to the use of pap rather than pap.HCl.
 

df cardwell

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When a dealer, or maker, tells you how long something will last, they absolutely MUST err on the conservative side. Especially in the era of the Internet, when bad news, true or not, travels fast.

Rodinal lasts a long time.
 

srs5694

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Thanks for the clear and extensive explanation, Gerald. It clears a lot up. BTW, my copy of Anchell's Darkroom Cookbook, 2nd Edition specifies potassium metabisulfite and sodium hydroxide. I've seen others that say sodium metabisulfite and potassium hydroxide, though.
 

Fotohuis

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Summurized, here is a very close recepture of the Rodinal (last modified in 1992 by Agfa, p-ap ; p-ap.HCl) from the original. This website is made of also a very well known Dutch APUG member, experienced in darkroom stuff.
http://www.photocrack.com/main/index.htm
(Fotochemie --> (Agfa) filmontwikkelaars --> Rodinal)

A closed bottle of Rodinal will last over 10 years and then you can still use it. An opened bottle of Rodinal will last for about 4-5 years. It's dark brown (almost black) then and if you stay at the safe side of about 10ml concentrate/film, it will still work.

For a liquid developer Rodinal is a real exception about lifetime. Most (liquid) developers a gone within two years or earlier.

Best regards,

Robert
 

pelerin

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sterioma said:
So, let me try go step back to my question: anybody ever done Tri-x + Rodinal stand development with roll films? :smile:

Hey,
I can't speak to DF's observation about 120 films but I've had success in 35 with trix, tmy, tmx, apx400, acros, etc. I use 1+120, load three reels in the center of 5 reel/1liter tank, agitate 1 min and stand 60... water stop, tf4, HCA, rinse, etc. Avoiding the top reel seems to elimininate random but recurrent anomalies that I assume are linked to agitation. I do this stand or not. I only skip the bottom reel for stand. Most likely more from superstion than observation. I think that it is important not to over agitate in that initial minute. I can send you small scan if you want to see. Nothing earthshaking is accomplished here but it seems a good technique for that bag of unlabled rolls that are ever and often accumulating in the domke.
Celac.
 

Gerald Koch

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Gerald Koch said:
One molecular weight (mole) of pap.HCl contains one mole of pap and one mole of HCl (hydrogen chloride). In the Anchel formula half of the potassium hydroxide is used to make the phenolate and the other half is used to neutralize the hydrogen chloride in the pap.HCl. Therefore if you start from the pap free base you would need only half as much potassium hydroxide.
Over the weekend I realized that the above statement is a bit misleading since I was speaking only of the pap.HCl. The sentence is better stated as "In the Anchel formula part of the potassium hydroxide is used to make the phenolate and part is used to neutralize the hydrogen chloride in the pap.HCl. The rest is used to convert the potassium metabisulfite to potassium sulfite."
 

bjorke

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I've posted this before, two-hour stand development (NO agitation after the first few seconds) @ ISO 200 on Acros, Rodinal 1+100. I'm planning to do some TXP and Neopan 400 soon.... just been uber-busy
 
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Quinten

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bjorke said:


I've posted this before, two-hour stand development (NO agitation after the first few seconds) @ ISO 200 on Acros, Rodinal 1+100. I'm planning to do some TXP and Neopan 400 soon.... just been uber-busy

Bjorke, is it the detail in the darker parts that would have been lost otherwhise? Strange since one would say the contrast would blow but it's hard to judge unless you know what was expected while making the picture.

cheers!
 

MSchuler

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OT: Examples?

david b said:
Ever seen Ralph Gibson's work? That was his combo.

Has anyone ever put together a list of well-known prints to show what a typical or "archetypal" print using a given developer/film combinations? I have a book called Portraits And Figures: Developing Style in Creative Photography by Terry Hope that shows b&w images by a bunch of photographers with camera and film information but, if I recall correctly, no developer information.
 

Claire Senft

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I think that in order of rank from the most influential to the lesser influential
the rank may look like this.

1. Film. There is a wide variety of speeds and each with a built in propensity to show certain types of charateristics gradation, film speed, resolution, graininess etc. Of course the task at hand and what you like are very important.

2. Paper I believe is the next most important choice. This choice will be heavily impacted by the choices made in selecting a film. How well do you feel does this paper reproduce the negative being printed?

3. Film developers will give quite a wide variety of speed, graininess, sharpness etc to the film you have chosen. Also important is the degree of development that you apply.

4. The characteristics of the enlarger's light source as to how it responds to the first three items.

4. Paper devloper will also change the look of the print produced.

I am not a user of either Rodinal or Tri-X. I believe that Tri-X, in its different varietie, offers very nice gradation as long as the degree of enlargement is not so high as to cause the user of Tri-X to find fault with the display of sharpness or grain. I think that some photographers much appreciate the display of grain being apparent and rendered with sharpness from using Trix-X developed in Rodinal. Making 16x enlargements from Tri-X negatives developed In Rodinal is not a method to promote smoothness when the print is viewed from close range. Fine grain devlopers are a good prescription for rendering Tri-X with easy to observe mush.

So, the question to ask yourself is: For what I want to accomplish and how I like things to look are either Tri-X, Rodinal or the combination of both my best choice?
 
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Quinten

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Claire Senft said:
I think that in order of rank from the most influential to the lesser influential
the rank may look like this.

1. Film. There is a wide variety of speeds and each with a built in propensity to show certain types of charateristics gradation, film speed, resolution, graininess etc. Of course the task at hand and what you like are very important.

2. Paper I believe is the next most important choice. This choice will be heavily impacted by the choices made in selecting a film. How well do you feel does this paper reproduce the negative being printed?

3. Film developers will give quite a wide variety of speed, graininess, sharpness etc to the film you have chosen. Also important is the degree of development that you apply.

4. The characteristics of the enlarger's light source as to how it responds to the first three items.

4. Paper devloper will also change the look of the print produced.

I am not a user of either Rodinal or Tri-X. I believe that Tri-X, in its different varietie, offers very nice gradation as long as the degree of enlargement is not so high as to cause the user of Tri-X to find fault with the display of sharpness or grain. I think that some photographers much appreciate the display of grain being apparent and rendered with sharpness from using Trix-X developed in Rodinal. Making 16x enlargements from Tri-X negatives developed In Rodinal is not a method to promote smoothness when the print is viewed from close range. Fine grain devlopers are a good prescription for rendering Tri-X with easy to observe mush.

So, the question to ask yourself is: For what I want to accomplish and how I like things to look are either Tri-X, Rodinal or the combination of both my best choice?


Thanks for your answer and it indeed is a whise point to consider my pictures may look just fine on small prints (I like the grain) but what will happend when I start printing bigger, might have some less usable negs for that.
 

bjorke

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More on Stand Rodinal 1+100

Last night I ran a roll of 35mm Tri-X and a roll of 120 HP5+ as a 2.5-hour stand development - DEAD stand, no agitation after the initial "getting-to-know-you" shakeup when adding the developer.

I have not yet printed any neg, they're hanging to dry.

Initial visual-inpsection impression is that the "normal" range of values would be to shoot the Tri-X at around ISO1600 (2 stops hot). Yeah, they're contrasty. The HP5 didn't seem to gain quite so much in terms of ISO

More as it, err, develops
 

sterioma

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bjorke said:
Last night I ran a roll of 35mm Tri-X and a roll of 120 HP5+ as a 2.5-hour stand development [...] Initial visual-inpsection impression is that the "normal" range of values would be to shoot the Tri-X at around ISO1600 (2 stops hot).

This looks interesting :smile:
Waiting........

Stefano
 

pelerin

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bjorke said:
.
<snip>
Initial visual-inpsection impression is that the "normal" range of values would be to shoot the Tri-X at around ISO1600 (2 stops hot). Yeah, they're contrasty. The HP5 didn't seem to gain quite so much in terms of ISO

More as it, err, develops

The Agfa data I have read (and I think Pat Gainer's testing) indicates that HP5+ in highly dilute Rodinal "tops out" below a Gamma of .6, ...seems to be supported by your results.
Celac.
 
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