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BrianShaw

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I think the people at BlueMoon are very courteous and patient.

… but not getting a lot of help.

Directions/desires being given are too vague and puts the onus on the lab to be clairvoyant. Back in the days when “optical printing” was all we had it was much more effective to specify desired corrections on a proof print, using a grease pencil, and give that to the printer with the neg to have a reprint made to desired specifications. There was a somewhat standardized markup symbology that might still be findable on the internet, but any markup specification might be better than what’s being given.

This approach may be a bit of a lost art but I think it applies to digital printing also so it shouldn’t be.
 

MattKing

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In what way is that not what I said?

"muck up" and "change" are not the same.
My point was variability and flexibility, not screw-up-ability :smile:.
Trust me, I've seen lots of highly variable printing results, in both workflows!
 

mshchem

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So, just because something is printed optically doesn't mean that the operator doesn't have access to a video preview of how adjustments will effect the final print. Kodak had these sort of machines way back.
 

DREW WILEY

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All kinds of misinformed usage of terms occur on this particular thread because it has boiled down to cheap automated snapshot printing in relation to 35mm cameras. That's OK, but not when you make generic claims about entire processes and potentials which stretch well beyond that tiny toad burrow.
 

Don_ih

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"muck up" and "change" are not the same.
My point was variability and flexibility, not screw-up-ability :smile:.
Trust me, I've seen lots of highly variable printing results, in both workflows!

Yet what you did was totally muck up a perfectly fine image.
You could have changed it in an infinite number of ways that would have left it just as appealing as the original - just different.
 
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Nikon 2

Nikon 2

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Yet what you did was totally muck up a perfectly fine image.
You could have changed it in an infinite number of ways that would have left it just as appealing as the original - just different.

If I’m reading this correctly, Don_ih has taken umbrage on this topic...!
 
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MattKing

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I myself took deep umbrage with the "improved" print.

If you are referring to my two examples, who said it was improved?
It was adjusted - and quite radically at that - with minimal effort and time devoted.
All as a demonstration to show how independent of process and workflow the results can be.
 

MattKing

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Any idea how those worked?

Like the world's most complex test strip.
If you had a totally in spec RA-4 line, the display units were calibrated to cause the CRT display to respond the same way to colour filtration and exposure changes that the paper did.
They had a built in analyzer that worked the same way as the automatic printers did, except they first showed the operator a positive image on the screen that matched how the print would appear if it was made at the settings suggested by the analyzer. Then the controls on the machine were used to adjust the image on the screen. The adjustment to those controls was converted into the necessary adjustment to filtration and exposure at the printing end.
If everything stayed fully in calibration, the resulting print was very close to what the operator saw on their screen.
Keeping things accurately calibrated was the challenge - they needed volume to work well and make economic sense.
@Mr Bill would probably be one of the best people here to talk about using these - they were ideal for a large operation like a big portraiture chain.
The machine I worked on didn't offer the screen. It just included the calibration, and the analyzer. And I made lots of test strips - nearly one for each shot on the wedding and portrait rolls I printed for our professional photographer customers.
 

DREW WILEY

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I've never seen em in use. The big labs in this area had millions of dollars worth of equipment in them, but tended to employ certain individuals highly experienced in dealing with color neg portraiture, which was then mostly MF or even LF. The pro photographers generally had at least one frame in the set with a gray card deliberately in it. The operators then took color densitometer cc readings of that, then ran a test strip; or lacking a gray card in an image, went straight to a test strip. The color neg films involved were generally of the predictable Vericolor S or L type, and taken under correctly balanced studio lighting, or corrected outdoor use. It wasn't like a Photofinisher dealing with amateur Kodacolor Gold snapshots all over the map, or high saturation CN neg films like Ektar 100 today. When Ektar 25 came out, they struggled with it.

Chromes were dealt with via internegs or Type R, unless the lab specialized in dye transfer or later Cibachrome. Once in awhile I'd take on a particularly difficult chrome for someone willing to significantly pay for all the extra work involved for multi-masking it or whatever it took, which the big labs couldn't afford the time to do right. Doesn't mean the results were ideal - a badly exposed original is always a "salvage what you can" job. Now those train wrecks can be cleaned up way faster with scanning and digital corrections; but they're still train wrecks - lipstick on a pig.
 

mshchem

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That was the equivalent of almost $200,000, in today's money. 😲 I would imagine that only really big labs had them. It would sweet if one were still in-use somewhere, but I tend to doubt it.

Kodak used this technology throughout Kodak's processing labs. Obviously not every single image needed intervention. Kodak's in-house photo finishing was phenomenal. I have prints, a roll from my senior prom, I shot on Ektacolor S, best prints you could get, 3 1/2 × 5, glossy. Humans, mostly women, printed each photo.1975. I suspect Blue Moon is capable of duplicating this sort of print.
 

DREW WILEY

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Kodak ruined their reputation with pro labs after the launch of their next generation of high-end lab aids - demanded full payment on it even after they broke faith and cancelled their own contracted side of providing of ongoing maintenance and service. That outright bankrupted one big local lab that was otherwise flourishing. That was in the 80's - early 90's, when Kodak was beginning its corporate free-fall in general.
 

Mr Bill

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@Mr Bill would probably be one of the best people here to talk about using these - they were ideal for a large operation like a big portraiture chain.
Yes, the large chain lab where I worked initially had 4 VCNAs. Three were in constant use; one for each major "production" area. They were so critical to the operation that one was actually held in reserve as a spare. Even with a very expensive Kodak maintenance contract the spare machine was still seen as necessary. (It goes without saying that we did pretty high printing volume.)

These machines, as well as their successor, the PVAC (Pro Video Analyzing Computer, or something to that effect) were part of a manufacturing system.

The VCNA was essentially a sophisticated TV camera system looking at the color negative in the gate and displaying the result on a smallish CRT. There was also a lit area for a reference print. The operator would spin some large dials that were equivalent to changing cc filters in an enlarger as well as "density," which is loosely an exposure adjustment. The machine's display would show the anticipated print result. In a simplified system one might just write down the filter and exposure data, then manually set those into the printer (exposing machine). But one can probably see that this requires both the printing and processing machines to be held in very tight tolerances, and that these must somehow be "married" to the VCNA's setup.

In a say, 1980s implementation of a system, a mini-computer might have kept track of everything. We specifically used Nord package printers equipped with Lucht lamp houses (I roughly described their operation somewhere else on this site.) These lamp houses could automatically change exposure and filtration for each negative, much like a circa 1990s minilab machine. Essentially they used a set of three hard-cutting filters - cyan, magenta, and yellow. (Cyan filter terminates the red-light exposure, magenta filter terminates the green-light exposure, and yellow filter terminates the blue-light exposure.) Each filter is mounted in a "paddle" which is mounted to a rotary solenoid; this allows each filter to be rapidly flipped into the light path at the proper time, under electronic control. When the last filter comes into the light path all light is blocked (hypothetically) and a mechanical shutter is closed. By this means the computer can command any (equivalent) filter and exposure.

For the mechanics of setup one starts with a set of "printer setup negatives" on the specific film type. These include a known exposure series under a proper lighting setup, and correctly-processed film. The lab then makes a set of ideal prints from these with the printer being manually controlled. Adjustments are made until the over and under negatives all give matching prints, and the print data is recorded. The same set of negatives are put into the VCNA (or PVAC) and manually dialed to visually match the display. Now the system has a correlation between the visual appearance of the display vs the actual print exposure. It calculates a so-called "slope adjustment" which largely compensates for reciprocity failure in the print exposure, and is able to interpolate for any variation in the exposure. So the system is basically able to give a correct print exposure based on whatever one needs to dial in on the VCNA.

There is one small part missing from this. Obviously the VCNA system works for a single printer - the one it has been "married" to. But what about multiple printers? So Kodak also made so-called "translators," essentially a color-meter for printers, allowing a number of individual printers to be matched up.

As I said before, the VCNA/PVAC was part of a manufacturing system. Elaborate to set up and maintain. But incredibly capable in the right conditions. FWIW we saw ours as reliable only to within about 5 cc of color - not good enough for our work. So we always ran initial color tests before actually letting a long-roll of color film go to print.

Any pro-lab of decent size would have wanted a VCNA/PVAC (or the cheaper Bremson version, etc.). It all came down, pretty much, to how much time/labor one could save by eliminating one or two initial color tests. And again, it was necessary to keep pretty tight process control on things.
 

mshchem

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Thanks Mr Bill, I always dreamed of a machine like this when I was a kid in the 70's. I didn't have anything other than a Kodak Dataguide. Seemed like Kodacolor-X negatives were the easiest to print. So of course I shot Ektacolor 😁
 
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Nikon 2

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How the Leica renders this scene and why I sent the F2 for a CLA…!
 

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pentaxuser

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How the Leica renders this scene and why I sent the F2 for a CLA…!

Now if you'd only shown us this one at the start we'd have had nothing to talk about for 27 pages 😄

Maybe F2s stop bullets in Vietnam but are defenceless against the colour yellow

pentaxuser
 
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