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TIRED OF BW FILM PRICE 'EXCUSES'

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Sirius Glass

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... And the body was rusting out. All of that in 3 years and with excellent maintenance.

You were in Rocherster and Rochester has the best politicians that money can buy. For those of you who have not been blessed with living in Rochester New York or Monroe County, Monroe County has large salt mines. The owners of these mines have invested money in politicians. The politicians know where the butter comes from and therefore rather than using other chemicals for ice and snow or g-d forbid the require that the people in Rochester learn to drive carefully [Note: In the winter in Rochester the traffic lights and stop signs are merely advisory!], Rochester uses one-seventh the road salt of the country. No wonder the brake lines and car body rusted out.

Steve
 

lxdude

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Vintagemustang.com list of V8's for the '65:
F code=260
C code=289 2V
D code=289 4V+
A code=289 4V
K code=289 HiPerf

For the youngsters here, 2V and 4V do not refer to number of valves, but to number of barrels (venturis).
 

CGW

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I say it looks like I should look in an antique car forum for some film photography information and discussion.

Agreed. This and other recent threads redefine "focus issues."
 

Photo Engineer

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Steve;

Interestingly enough, only my Ford cars rusted out in Rochester with one exception, my Chevrolet Vega. No other Chevy product rusted, nor did my AMC cars.

PE
 

Photo Engineer

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Vintagemustang.com list of V8's for the '65:
F code=260
C code=289 2V
D code=289 4V+
A code=289 4V
K code=289 HiPerf

For the youngsters here, 2V and 4V do not refer to number of valves, but to number of barrels (venturis).

Would the K model have the raised hood then?

PE
 

Sirius Glass

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Steve;

Interestingly enough, only my Ford cars rusted out in Rochester with one exception, my Chevrolet Vega. No other Chevy product rusted, nor did my AMC cars.

PE

My '86 Chevy Blazer, may he rest in peace, was so rusty that I named it "Rusty"! It was very dependable and very s-l-o-w, but it never left me stranded. It always got me home.

Steve
 

2F/2F

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Would the K model have the raised hood then?

PE

I already explained that, PE. If you question me, why don't you do some research, rather than continuing to blindly disbelieve it? No factory '65 (or '66 for that matter) Mustang had a "raised hood." And the K-Code engine is no different in size than the other V8's. Factory K-Code-equipped cars had the same hood as every other factory '65 Mustang. Only the Shelby had a very low profile (and purely cosmetic) hood scoop, not a "raised hood." You could have put a standard Mustang hood onto a Shelby with no modifications, so the statement that there was a '65 that needed a "raised hood" is completely incorrect, along with all the other information you posted about Mustangs, including the mileage used as a typical figure for cars of that time, especially Mustangs.

The engines listed above by the other poster are just like I explained them, PE, with the addition of the 260, which is an early V8 option found in the very early '65's (which most people call '64-1/2's, as the car was very early release for it's day).

Your experience with your car, if it is even true, is atypical of the cars of that era, except the aforementioned Cadillacs in bumper to bumper traffic. A more reflective figure should be used to make your point. 7.5 MPG is extreme, and nonrepresentative of most the cars of the '60's. And you should not use your bad experience with one car to start a pointless argument about brand superiority. All auto makers made good and bad cars that fell into various states of disrepair based on who maintained them and how, and where they were driven and how. But history does not support the fact that Mustangs, and Fords in general, were chronic lemons or tough maintenance cases. They were simple, reliable, and economical, yet sporty-looking cars. The '65 and '66 version is one of the most acclaimed through-and-through automotive designs of all time.

Your continued insistence on "facts" that are simply dead wrong makes it even more likely that the 7.5 MPG figure you used to bolster your point is fabricated. These "facts" you argue are:

- There was a single factory engine for '65 Mustangs that can be called "the big engine." - There were, in fact, three "big engines" to choose from, and not one of them was different in block size from the next.
- There was only one optional V8 for factory '65 Mustangs - There were three (plus the early 260-2V, which was replaced by the later 289-2V, but I am discussing true '65's, not 64-1/2's)
- There was a factory '65 Mustang engine that required a "raised hood" - There was not. Plain and simple. If you saw one, it was customized.
- Dealers had chronic trouble tuning Mustangs, and this resulted in them getting nearly half the standard mileage - Mustangs, like most small non-luxury cars of the day, were very easy to work on and very reliable. This is one one of the major factors contributing to their success. You can have as much "style" as you want, but a car will not sell that well for so long if it is a chronic lemon.
 
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2F/2F

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2F/2F I don't understand your insistence about a fuel consumption figure. They can vary wildly. Half a world says "your mileage may vary" because it does vary a lot. :wink:

7.5 MPG is a low MPG for the average '60's car, which PE was using to make his point about how improvements in technology and rises in price have sort of counterbalanced each other. His point is well taken, but the figure used is just ridiculous for a Mustang. It makes me think he just pulled it out of the air solely to make his point. Then the arguing about the details of the car that are 100% wrong on his part, yet he keeps going.
 
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Photo Engineer

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Look 2F, I am not disagreeing with you, merely recounting my experience with two lines of Ford products. I switched to AMC cars at the recommendation of my father who switched from Pontiac to AMC. I owned AMC cars until they went out of business and switched to Chevrolet. I never went back to Ford. I really don't care if they are superb cars or were superb cars. I can tell you that the story I related was true. The high gas mileage was due to repeated faults in the tuning of the carburetor and to the fact that it was always gumming up. Those facts were told to me by friends and the mechanics at the two dealers that I had service the car. Now, I ask a question of you? What car did you own in 1965 and are you relating stories about the Mustang from reading articles?

PE
 

michaelbsc

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Would the K model have the raised hood then?

PE

Not exactly sure, but most likely the high performance option was for "power pack" cylinder heads. These had oversized intake valves.

This was a factory option on 292 engines, and most likely on 289 engines as well. No guarantee you could buy it for a Mustang though. I didn't keep track of that level of detail.

I think all of the raised hoods you are thinking about were dealer mods or aftermarket mods. The idea behind them being a larger mixing venturi in the intake manifold.

By the time the 302 Boss came out the factory had learned they were missing a lot of revenue by not offering all that stuff.

My favorite was my mom's Galaxy 500 with the 390 4 barrel. Big sleeper; little old lady car with a big block.

MB
 

Photo Engineer

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Well, we are missing the gist of the thread. To go back to that, due to the economic slump, Kodak has closed and "mothballed" an entire building which I reported here earlier. They still pay taxes on it but it produces nothing. IDK what happened to the bulk of the workers there, but that allowed Kodak to ramp up production in the remaining room while they were still responsible for taxes on the mothballed building. This balanced costs and allowed them to expand again in the future if they needed to. But, if costs go up, the consumer bears it all.

PE
 

michaelbsc

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Well, we are missing the gist of the thread. To go back to that, due to the economic slump, Kodak has closed and "mothballed" an entire building which I reported here earlier. They still pay taxes on it but it produces nothing. IDK what happened to the bulk of the workers there, but that allowed Kodak to ramp up production in the remaining room while they were still responsible for taxes on the mothballed building. This balanced costs and allowed them to expand again in the future if they needed to. But, if costs go up, the consumer bears it all.

PE

I've seen other laces do similar things, specifically mothball - but not decommission - facilities in anticipation of rebound. The probable expectation is that the facility will get re-purposed if it can be made profitable on another product.

As someone pointed out, there are a gazillion uses for "coating film" besides photography. But I doubt the production equipment is much good for anything besides film. The conveying equipment could be put to use for lots of stuff. And the building is a building.
 

2F/2F

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Now, I ask a question of you? What car did you own in 1965 and are you relating stories about the Mustang from reading articles?

PE

This sounds like a backhanded attempt to discredit me rather than a genuine question, but I will bite anyhow. I am a car nerd, the same way many people are stamp nerds or any other kind of nerd. How do you know anything about World War I or the formation of the nation? Because you were there? Please!

I know about old cars the same way anybody knows about anything that happened in the past. Research: historical reading, discussion with peers and parents...and, most importantly, personal experience. I grew up among car nuts. I remember being a little kid riding in a '65 coupe (modified to be fast and scary as balls, and yes, with a standard hood), two different '65 Fairlanes, and a '64 Mercury Comet, among other old cars of various makes (a Volvo P1800 among them - the kind of car that you truly work on all week just so you can drive it on Sunday - the main problem? English-made twin carbs). One of those Fairlanes was purchased new, so my father happened to know that the odometer had gone around three times on the original engine, BTW. Abnormal, but true. When the car got wrecked by a drunk whil epaked in front of our house, he put the engine in the replacement Fairlane, while was an oil burner.

Plus, I had two of my own '65 2+2's for years. One had the K-Code engine. I sold it when it became too valuable to warrant keeping. This is in addition to an original L-6/4-speed 2+2 that I also had that had been converted to a 302 factory Hi-Po mill. The K-code was unrestored original in good condition, and the other one I had "restored" to super clean condition, though not as original. Both had standard hoods. Both got no less than 13 MPG in the city unless I was tearing about. And both only needed maintenance (brakes, clutch, tires, alignment, etc.), never repair.

FWIW, the only cars that have given me maintenance headaches (and I have owned at least a dozen cars from the '50's and '60's) have been newer GMs ('90's in my case), and those from the dark ages of American automobiles, the '70's, '80's, and '90's, such as a my grandmother's '79 Fairmont. (Nicknamed "The Pumpkin" in reference to "Cinderella" because of an electrical problem that rendered the headlights useless.)

Nobody in all the Ford clubs and shows, books, etc. has ever mentioned anything about any of the optional carburetors being hard to tune or sucking down the gas so severely. As I said, if it had been that much of a problem with the model, they would not have done so well or been so highly lauded by drivers and critics alike, and the problem would certainly be common knowledge among old car nuts. ("You want my advice, son, get rid of that 2V. It is nothing but a headache.") There are always exceptions, but my point was that exceptions should not be used as evidence for general statements. You also should realize that your dealers could have very well likely been feeding you a line about that model of carb being a problem child, simply because they had to tell you something about your repeated visits in your lemon.

And I have said I agree with your point about rising costs being offset by increased mileage. I just thought your example was a gross exaggeration. I just don't understand why you insist on making so many adamant yet completely incorrect statements about the '65 Mustang, rather than simply stating that your experience with your car was likely the exception, rather than the rule, of '60's cars. It makes the whole story highly suspect and works against your original point by discrediting the information used to make it. If your statements are debated with real information, and you respond as you did, by simply sticking your feet in the mud and beginning to shovel out crap information as if nobody reading it knows any better, all it does it further discredit your information and work against your original point. I was trying to improve your argument, yet ran into a wall of misinformation as a defense.
 
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Leigh Youdale

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Gentlemen, gentlemen!

I think we've run into a pissing contest here, if not exactly WW3, and it has nothing to do with the original post. A cup of tea and a good lie down is indicated.
 

Diapositivo

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(a Volvo P1800 among them - the kind of car that you truly work on all week just so you can drive it on Sunday - the main problem? English-made twin carbs).

2F/2F, if everybody was as nitpicking as you seem to be with some little bit of information, it would be easy to dispute your statement that one must truly work on all week on a Volvo P1800 so you can drive it on Sunday. One might also dispute the implied assertion that "English-made" twin carburettors cause problems.

So one could make a post (which I don't intend to do :wink: ) to specify that your Volvo P1800 might have been a lemon but not all of them were, and that your English-made twin carburettors caused problems, but not all such carburettors cause such problems. One might even question your credibility as a Volvo-owner or suggest that your mechanic told you that the problems were the carburettors when the problem was that he didn't read the service manual for that carburettor model.

But I won't do such a post because I understand that this is not an academic essay, is just a friendly conversation between "shutterbugs". Everybody can make a sweeping statement, or exaggerate a bit, or just have an unfortunate car "copy" and retain a bad opinion of the entire make (as we all do when we are disappointed by a product).

And we are all friends here, aren't we? (Yes we are).

Fabrizio
 

brucemuir

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My old man had a 64 1/2 mustang and he returned it within 6 months.
His legs were too long for it.

It was p*ss yellow in color. Wish I still had it today.
 

Steve Smith

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CGW

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SOS Mods.

Can we shut this wildly OT crankfest down, please.
 

removed account4

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Is that a quarter ounce troy or avoirdupois?

Really, that sounds like a pretty high concentration either way. I didn't realize it was that much per gallon. It's definitely worth the trouble to reclaim it at that level given the price of silver.

I just recently bought one of those silver magnet gizmos. I'm saving up my used fixer in a covered 5 gallon bucket until I have enough to process. Hopefully the silver magnet will work even after the fixer has started to precipitate out those yellow-colored solids. I don't think that stubborn and almost impossible to clean precipitate contains any silver. I believe the silver should still be in solution.

i believe it is 1/4 oz troy but either way it is a lot of $$$$
people just put down the drain. nowadays, silver is way-up in price
so for just a few dollars spent one could use the proceeds after
whatever time it takes to load up a cathode with silver flake ...
to pay for film or paper, or silver nitrate, new lens, new camera ... whatever ...
i think it is comical that people complain about costs of film + paper when it
isn't much really ( much less than the new hassy body+ lens they just bought ! )
and there are obviously things one can do to cut one's front
end cost but they don't bother for whatever reasons they have ...

if you have any trouble with the magnet skip, just drop me a line!
 

Photo Engineer

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In post 110, I tried to get back on track with this thread. Interestingly enough, there is a parallel between the car exchange and film making which was central to some of what I was originally thinking.

I was on the floor at the car dealer in 1965, with the mechanic, as he swore about the Mustang carburetor, and there was the earlier point made about heavy salt in Rochester eating at cars. This is correct and what helped contribute to the problems I had. Being there is better than reading about it. Look at the films "The Longest Day" besides "Saving Private Ryan" and compare the Normandy landing. They are both "true" but one is sanitized. People can look at the same action from a different perspective. I meant no disrespect to anyone, nor did I wish to argue, I only put forth my experience.

Now, lets compare that to making film. Well, I have been on the floor in the coating room more times than I can count. I have made melts for the coaters, and watched production coating machines work. When I say people will have trouble getting a line started from scratch, I am often disbelieved but this is true. Coating is a skill and an art as is emulsion making and product design. Look at TIP so far and their problems. And, they supposedly have the equipment and people to do it!

So, this art and science is expensive to maintain and reproduce. Film and paper prices will go up, and probably rapidly as we lose the base of good qualified engineers and as equipment ages.

So, to add to all I said about the price of petroleum products, I add the art of film making from start to finish.

PE
 

2F/2F

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2F/2F, if everybody was as nitpicking as you seem to be with some little bit of information, it would be easy to dispute your statement that one must truly work on all week on a Volvo P1800 so you can drive it on Sunday. One might also dispute the implied assertion that "English-made" twin carburettors cause problems.

So one could make a post (which I don't intend to do :wink: ) to specify that your Volvo P1800 might have been a lemon but not all of them were, and that your English-made twin carburettors caused problems, but not all such carburettors cause such problems. One might even question your credibility as a Volvo-owner or suggest that your mechanic told you that the problems were the carburettors when the problem was that he didn't read the service manual for that carburettor model.

But I won't do such a post because I understand that this is not an academic essay, is just a friendly conversation between "shutterbugs". Everybody can make a sweeping statement, or exaggerate a bit, or just have an unfortunate car "copy" and retain a bad opinion of the entire make (as we all do when we are disappointed by a product).

And we are all friends here, aren't we? (Yes we are).

Fabrizio

My P1800 comment was intended to be facetious, not literal. It's an old idiom here in the States that you use when a car takes a lot of work to maintain and tune properly.

And I said "English-made" not to say that English products are crap, but because I forgot the name of the maker of the carbs.

So, what I was saying is "the kind of car that is truly a chore to maintain, due to it's carburetor setup/design, as opposed to the common and relatively simple single-downdraft-carbs found in other cars of the day."

Multiple carb setups can really be pains to tune, and these particular carburetors seem to fall out of adjustment more often than your run-of-the-mill Holley carb. Once they are in tune they run great, and the adjustment is not necessarily difficult to perform...but it needed to be done constantly.

It is, of course, true the newer cars are "technically" better than those of the '60's. I wasn't arguing against that. I was simply arguing that 7.5 MPG was a rather extreme case of low mileage.

If anyone thought I was making nationalistic slurs against the English people, I apologize. I was not doing that in any way.

My point was simple. 7.5 MPG is a low figure, even for the '60's. Then the flood of bad information started flowing in response to my very simple, and very correct, original point. The misinformation just kept on coming, post after post, as if I had no idea what I was talking about. I'm no expert, but please. The things I stated are common knowledge to most old car enthusiasts.

P.S. I just looked up the P1800 carbs, and the name of the company that made them is SU. They are side-draft designs.
 
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Steve Smith

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SU carburettors are very simple and shouldn't give any trouble.... until you try to balance a pair (or four). I recently had to buy a new needle for the SU in our 1948 Morris Eight and was surprised at the number of different profile needles available. I was even more surprised by the number of people who would obsess over them and measure the diameter at sixteen points over their length in order to plot graphs for comparison!


Steve.
 

CGW

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Any chance of closing this embarrassment? Moderators???
 

lxdude

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The SU carbs, once balanced, can hold balance well if they are in good shape. If they are constantly going out of tune they may just be worn, and need a rebuild. Sometimes a thicker piston damping oil will buy some time. They are a CV type (constant velocity aka constant vacuum), with a piston which moves to maintain the correct intake velocity, which is connected to a metering pin to provide the correct amount of fuel. It's a simple, straightforward design suitable for both standard and high performance applications.
I've worked on SU's on Jaguars (both double and triple setups) and Volvos (double setup) and they were checked and adjusted at regular tune-ups only. Even the vibration of a Harley didn't shake an SU out of tune, in my experience. Most carbureted motorcycles use a CV type, sidedraft or downdraft (on my Honda V4, they're semi-downdraft Keihins), one per cylinder, with excellent results and reliability. Most problems with keeping them in tune on bikes have been due to problems with the linkages rather than the carbs themselves.
 
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