Thoughts on the Bronica S2?

You need to get the lens farther into the helical for more distance. My 127mm Ysaron in shutter reaches from about 12ft to way beyond infinity with the helical alone. Extension tube C-B threaded into the helical gives a range from about 2.5' to somewhat shy of infinity with this lens. I probably missed it but what is the focal length of your lens?

choiliefan said:

You need to get the lens farther into the helical for more distance. My 127mm Ysaron in shutter reaches from about 12ft to way beyond infinity with the helical alone. Extension tube C-B threaded into the helical gives a range from about 2.5' to somewhat shy of infinity with this lens. I probably missed it but what is the focal length of your lens?

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120mm. Those minolta tubes, if they fit, would do the job.

Here's an example of what the set of four extension tubes look like. Price isn't too bad either especially with best offer and free shipping: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bronica-Ex...799469?hash=item2167c3b36d:g:x~QAAOSwGYNd-RVd

choiliefan said:

Here's an example of what the set of four extension tubes look like. Price isn't too bad either especially with best offer and free shipping: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bronica-Ex...799469?hash=item2167c3b36d:g:x~QAAOSwGYNd-RVd

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Thanks!

Before reading this thread I never gave the S2(a) cameras much thought. Now after reading more I'm becoming confused about the models S2 and S2A and the preceived differences. There is a lot of internet chatter about serial numbers, advance knob shape, flash sync position, butterfly shape? on the strap lugs, and a few others I forgot. Then looking at some S2A's on ebay if I'm believing what I read about what constitutes a S2A it seems many of them on ebay are actually S2's? Do the sellers just not know, or do they know and the chatter on the internet just that? If a serial number is below 150000 and doesn't have the suffix S2A can it still be a S2A?

Anyone with great knowledge about the differences care to share what to look for to find a true S2A?

wjlapier said:

Before reading this thread I never gave the S2(a) cameras much thought. Now after reading more I'm becoming confused about the models S2 and S2A and the preceived differences. There is a lot of internet chatter about serial numbers, advance knob shape, flash sync position, butterfly shape? on the strap lugs, and a few others I forgot. Then looking at some S2A's on ebay if I'm believing what I read about what constitutes a S2A it seems many of them on ebay are actually S2's? Do the sellers just not know, or do they know and the chatter on the internet just that? If a serial number is below 150000 and doesn't have the suffix S2A can it still be a S2A?

Anyone with great knowledge about the differences care to share what to look for to find a true S2A?

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I think I read somewhere that not all S2A are indicated on the camera. I think before I bought one there are slight differences to the body where you can tell if it's a S2 or S2A. I think one is the flash connector and the winding knob.

If anyone is interested.

The shots from the Bronicastein were developed and judging by the negatives it seems to have worked. This makes the Bronica S2 line quite valuable and unique to me as I can adapt all sorts of lenses to it.

Anyone got a lead on cheap large format lenses?

I agree wholeheartedly.

wjlapier said:

Before reading this thread I never gave the S2(a) cameras much thought. Now after reading more I'm becoming confused about the models S2 and S2A and the preceived differences. There is a lot of internet chatter about serial numbers, advance knob shape, flash sync position, butterfly shape? on the strap lugs, and a few others I forgot. Then looking at some S2A's on ebay if I'm believing what I read about what constitutes a S2A it seems many of them on ebay are actually S2's? Do the sellers just not know, or do they know and the chatter on the internet just that? If a serial number is below 150000 and doesn't have the suffix S2A can it still be a S2A?

Anyone with great knowledge about the differences care to share what to look for to find a true S2A?

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As you have discovered, the differences are subtle and not well known (it is a 60+ year old camera system!), and one cannot expect all those eBay sellers to know either. I often see mis-labelled s-series models on that web site. To compound the issue, I have read that the cosmetic changes (knob, flash sync, strap lugs, etcs) changed just prior to the S2a, meaning there are S2's that look like the S2a, and do not have the larger toothed gears in the wind mechanism (which is probably the main reason most people want the S2a). That is probably the reason they put S2a in the SN, which they later dropped after the S2 was out of production for a while.

One seller insisted that the camera was a S2A because of the research Japanese sellers do. The 90000 number without the S2A he insisted was a S2A. I got the impression the 90000 series numbers were reserved for Japan only sales--I think I read that somewhere too.

Internet info:

"Note that Bronica used different serial numbering conventions throughout the models. S2's had these formats:

CB50***, CB53***, CB55***, CB57***, CB60***, CB74***, CB75***, CB78***.

S2A's were of these formats:

CB9****S2A, CB10****s2A, CB11****S2, CB15****, CB16****, CB17****."

But the 90000 serial number camera I enquired about didn't have the S2A after the number. It also has the "butterfly wings" on the lugs. And has a black handle on the advance crank.

One of the easiest sites to find confuses the S2a for an S2 and it's only the last line of the article that corrects it. I suspect the truth is somewhere in between, allowing for the fact that there's probably been a single source which has been corrupted as it propogated it's way around the web.

My 'S2a' has the later wind knob, a serial number of CB154xxx and doesn't have S2a after the serial number.

Or you can go ahead and buy one and don't care if it's a S2 or S2A, and you don't have to worry. You can usually find S2 at a lower price than S2A.
They work just the same. If you treat it like you should treat an old camera...with some care, it does not matter which version you have. The S2A is likely to break just as much as the S2 - they are both old cameras.
I have one S2 and one S2A and they work just the same and look the same. The internal mumbo jumbo is not important.

Buy one and have fun...take a lot of pictures and be happy If it breaks it breaks. Shit happens. Old cameras are always a gamble.

/Anders

Kiruna69 said:

...go ahead and buy one and don't care if it's a S2 or S2A....

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I have to agree, a working S2 is way better than a broken S2a. The bigger reason to get the S2a is that it's not as elderly.

I have a broken S (needs a C&L and new curtains), a recently broken S2 (mirror frame cracked where the cloth strap that pulls it down is attached - gears are fine) and a working S2a.
I'm planning to refurbish the "S", it's a little lighter, and has a mirror pre-release. And a funky focus system.

GRHazelton said:

Thanks for the correction, and for the pictures, which show the difference! The S2a gears look far more rugged than those on the S2.

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Actually, to me, the teeth look longer and more mechanically "sticky" and more mechanically breakable in the S2A, both versions being steel.

Seems like I read somewhere that the later gears were hardened by a process called nitriding.

A J Chicago said:

Actually, to me, the teeth look longer and more mechanically "sticky" and more mechanically breakable in the S2A, both versions being steel.

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At some point, only 1 tooth holds the load on a strait gear train - this is typical of gear systems. The load is transferred from one tooth to the next, so it oscillates between 2 teeth sharing the load to the full load on one tooth. The smaller sized tooth has less material attaching it to the gear base, thus it has a lower shear load than the larger tooth.

Smaller teeth are smoother and more efficient (less drag/friction). Larger teeth are stronger. It's an engineering compromise.

choiliefan said:

Seems like I read somewhere that the later gears were hardened by a process called nitriding.

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I seem to recall reading that the S2 gears were brass, and the S2a's gears were steel. Just so my S2a gears hold up!!

My S2(a?) is still doing great. I did have to redo the light seals in the back. No biggie. Pulls 220 film just fine. The finder is a bit OOF at infinity but the images turned out great ( sharp ) so it's something to live with for now. I'd like to have a split image screen in it someday if it's possible. And maybe have someone go over it to see why the finder is OOF at infinity.

wjlapier said:

My S2(a?) is still doing great. I did have to redo the light seals in the back. No biggie. Pulls 220 film just fine. The finder is a bit OOF at infinity but the images turned out great ( sharp ) so it's something to live with for now. I'd like to have a split image screen in it someday if it's possible. And maybe have someone go over it to see why the finder is OOF at infinity.

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Check flickr.com There is a thread dealing with this, it is a nasty combination of foam spacers and foam bumpers on the mirror return (I think) preventing the mirror and screen from being where they ought to be. Wretched foam rears its ugly head everywhere!

wjlapier said:

My S2(a?) is still doing great. I did have to redo the light seals in the back. No biggie. Pulls 220 film just fine. The finder is a bit OOF at infinity but the images turned out great ( sharp ) so it's something to live with for now. I'd like to have a split image screen in it someday if it's possible. And maybe have someone go over it to see why the finder is OOF at infinity.

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Here's a video that, although is in an Asian language, at least clearly shows what needs to be done to get to the foam below the focus screen frame and the foam behind the mirror. Need a "screwdriver for the job"... long, tiny head, and preferably magnetic. I used a little, nonmagnetic one made to replace the screws in glasses frames. DON'T DO IT! Lol. I can't tell you how many times I lost and found those tiny screws and washers, but I found them! If you ever do it, while you're in there it would be a good idea to get a BrightScreen from Rick Oleson and brighten up the viewfinder 4 to 5 times brighter, with split image enhancement if you want. Just Google search "Rick Oleson bright screen" and you'll find it. At Rick's site you'll also find schematic instructions for replacing the screen and the foam behind the mirror and under the focus frame. I think the necessary foam, cut to proper size, comes with the new screen "kit."

Removal of the screen and mirror looks do-able. I contacted Rick Oleson and he sent me the instructions to install foam and one of his screens. I have a couple of cameras with the split image screens and they are great.

Wish me luck prepping the S2(A?)!

I just got myself a S2 kit:
Body, 50mm, 75mm, 105, 135mm, 200mm lenses, couple hoods, two 6x6 backs, wlf, prism, loupe, pistol grip, strap, sport finder (well ...), close-up lenses for the 200mm, a polaroïd back





the fun story there, is that I was intensely looking for a Rolleiflex SL66 these last couple weeks and was this close to buy one with two backs for 8000 kr , but then add some 300 kr for shipment from Germany, plus 20% norwegian vat + customs processing fee, but this morning on the local norwegian ads site I spotted this kit for 10.000kr. Went to check the working of the body, condition, lenses. It wasn't used for years and before not much it seems.

Now, I am mostly a Salyut shooter. I mean Salyut, not Kiev-88, it's not exactly the same feeling. Since I am back to purely *mechanical* film MF, choice is scarce: Salyut/Kiev, Bronica S (and C), Mamiya RB67, Hasselblad 500, Rolleiflex SL66.
I prefer to avoid leaf shutter lenses, so Hasselblad is out, and RB67 too.And just the name Hasselblad does irk me, like the name Leica in 35mm RF.
I prefer a camera I can carry along anywhere, so Mamiya RB67 is out too there, a bit too big.
I was left with Bronica S or Rolleiflex SL66. I want the SL66 because the bellows and tilt, and it's said to be more reliable.

But after finding that Bronica kit I just bought it.

An important point I think with these mechanical bodies, is that you must be a tinkerer, used to disassemble and fix things. Because servicemen are a specie in extinction and so few that it would take lot of time in shipment and money to fix.

The Salyut/Kiev are excellent for a tinkerer because you can find easily bodies for parts, the technical manuals are available, and in case you fail , you can still find many repairmen in Ukraine and Russia. Can keep one or two bodies going, while another is getting serviced for the usual stuff once in a while (curtains banding, worn winding, whatever).

The Bronica S2 seems to be another beast, I have no clue how much I could fix myself, but the idea is to buy some jammed body for cheap in order to learn.
In case the one I have now gets broken, I can buy some other body from Japan for reasonable price.

Also, as an amateur, I will not be shooting tons of rolls at a fast rate like mad. I think it's a reason some of these mechanical boxes got bad reputations back in the time: they could'nt keep with very intensive use.

The rest I suspect is gossips and memes being repeated to agony, like it is the case about the Kiev-88.

the S2 compared to my main Salyut, in similar kit: a normal lens (the Nikkor 75mm on the Bronica, the Vega-12 90mm on the Salyut, prism). I have no problem no handhold, the S2 is a bit more fat but easy for the hand. Could easily spend the day walking around with. I do it with a Salyut and a Kaleinar 150 mm.






shutter noise: different but equally loud. Not for a church, and if by the lake watching birds you can take only one shot, after what all birds fly somewhere else, but at least you got the one shot. The Bronica isn't louder than the Salyut. I guess the venerable Hasselblad 1000f is in the same category.

What I don't like with the Bronica is the prism, the Arsenal prism for the Salyut is a delight, but the one for the S2 I just don't know what the japanese were thinking, it's dim and the eye diminutive. I think I will hack a frankenstein by removing the base plate/mount of both and screwing the Arsenal on the Bronica base.

GRHazelton said:

I seem to recall reading that the S2 gears were brass, and the S2a's gears were steel. Just so my S2a gears hold up!!

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DId you miss this post in this very thread?

This is a commonly repeated comment that is NOT TRUE. It was started a long time ago, and that statement has been repeated everywhere on the internet.

All Bronica S gears are steel, which is necessary to take the winding stress of the detente at the end of the wind cycle. They changed the shape of the gears under the highest stress on the S2a.


S2a on the left, S2 on the right.

The gears engaged to the wind knob (removed above) drive the gears circled, the entire load is taken on 1~2 teeth (typical of gears). Bronica enlarged the teeth on the S2A to accommodate a larger brute load.Typically the S2 gears were fine, but since it takes 4+ rotations of the wind knob to cock the camera, if you were in a hurry, you would wind on very rapidly and slam into the end stop (which has a significant detente to overcome). Because the amount of wind is variable depending on how much film has been shot (# revolutions of the wind know reduces slightly as the film is wound on) there is a tendency to wind hard till it stops (unlike a hasselblad that winds with exactly one revolution every time)

Just want to start correcting the "brass" gear story.

Congratulations, Antonio! They're beautiful beasts! As you said, you may have to "tinker" and change out the rotted foam rubber under the focusing frame and behind the mirror. Check the focus at infinity. Do both at the same time!... and while you're at it, change the focusing screen to a BrightScreen, split image focusing screen from Rick Oleson. Make it 4 to 5 times brighter. Screen comes with replacement rubber and instructions. There are better, but not for the value.

thanks AJ! I am certainly going to have lot of fun with this S2. Your pictures about the inner of the S2 and S2a is very instructive. I can see why back in its time the S2 had the bad reputation for jamming under heavy professional use.
As for the focusing screen I was indeed thinking of the Rick Oleson ones, as they are know around, but also I was thinking of trying one of the late Kiev-88 split focusing screens I have around.