Thought experiment: What if electronically controled cameras are actually no less reliable

The alkaline version of the 6 volt battery used by the Canon A series cameras (and many Mamiya medium format cameras) is a favorite for use in many electronic dog collars.
For that reason, there are a lot of sources for them, and they can be very inexpensive.

Sirius Glass said:

It would not take a lot of mental effort to figure out that if one uses a camera which requires batteries, that it would behoove that one to carry spare batteries. This logic is much like film shooters carrying extra film and digital shooters carrying extra memory cards. So warned be-hooved. You have now been-hooved. It is better to be-hooved than be-lost.

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I never carry spare battery for the camera like the A1 or F3. The battery last a long time. I replaced them way before they going dead. In fact all of the ones I replaced would have months of life left in them.

Bill Burk said:

Thanks for the tip that I might be able to stack 4 MS-76 for the A-1

I always carry six of them for my OM-4 which always die when I want to take a shot.

I just don’t always have the 6-volt lying about.

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I don't own an OM-4 but I heard it has problem running down the battery when not in use. If that is your case then it's a defective camera that causes the problem.

Chan Tran said:

I don't own an OM-4 but I heard it has problem running down the battery when not in use. If that is your case then it's a defective camera that causes the problem.

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And I have two of ‘em. I love the idea of the camera. But to find that automatic doesn’t work if I set ASA to anything over 320 (one of them), or that self-timer decides to pretend to take a picture instead of actually taking (same one). Not to mention batteries always dead at beginning of a trip (both). Makes me sour on the whole idea of electronics in cameras. Latest addition is same vintage OM-3, also has the same battery issue, but since it doesn’t rely on battery I don’t miss that shot.

Bill Burk said:

And I have two of ‘em. I love the idea of the camera. But to find that automatic doesn’t work if I set ASA to anything over 320 (one of them), or that self-timer decides to pretend to take a picture instead of actually taking (same one). Not to mention batteries always dead at beginning of a trip (both). Makes me sour on the whole idea of electronics in cameras. Latest addition is same vintage OM-3, also has the same battery issue, but since it doesn’t rely on battery I don’t miss that shot.

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I really liked the OM-4 but the price on them is so high (I meant used in the 21st century, as back in the days I was a Nikon user so the F2 and F3 were for me and not Olympus). But the more I learned about it I think it's not so good a camera.

Retrospekt rebuilt my Polaroid SLR680 for $250, came back better than new. The SLR680 is 35+ years old now. My SLR690 is on good operating condition, I would have sent it in to. You can buy Polaroid film at Walmart now. So-, if there are enough people willing to pay to have certain cameras repaired, there will be places willing to do it. The SLR680 needed a new circuit board. The covering is all new, and Retrospekt returns the camera in a new box. Amazing work.

So if you have a Polaroid-
https://retrospekt.com/collections/repairs

Repairing a high-end P&S would probably require the same level of effort. So, $250 is probably a fair estimate of repairing an AF P&S requiring a new circuit card. Maybe Leica Minilux and Nikon TI would be good candidates for Retrospekt.

Bill Burk said:

At first I thought it was targeted to Tesla then saw it was farmers who wanted to fix their own. Then it made more sense.

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I've been following the Right to Repair as I fully expect it to have global and far reaching consequences and is a problem I professionally first experienced while being employed to fix iPhones oceans away: availability of parts and the economics of repair that go against manufacturers socioeconomic interests.
The Planned Obsolescence people were referring to in this thread stems from this. Take it together with mythos that electronics are harder and dangerous to repair - a lie perpetuated by said manufacturers - and we're here. Less moving parts = more reliable the common logic would dictate. That what was promised, no? But it's not about usability or longevity. It's all about manufacturer today, making a product for you to rent.

I could've be installing original screens, batteries, chips, ports, mainboards and all, all-day long with a huge smile on my face, returning a quality fix to my customer... But I was forced either to cheat (by saying that this HQ refurbished part is a fresh original in a World where original spare part from manufacturer simply doesn't exist) or client was forced to accept a subpar part. Why? Because Apple is a control freak. It wants to be perceived green, but its actual policies are producing a stupifying amount of e-waste each and every day. And people don't see this, they see only the greenwashing, the public image, not the reality. And are worshipping it.

Yes, there was a time you could swap the part out of a donor board, but parts serialization Apple, Samsung, Tesla and other big manufacturers are engaging in makes that impossible (without speciality tools from Communist China while not locked out via firmware, slight pinout change or verification over servers, which is a different Monster altogether, found in gaming and software), because they refuse to work if part ID doesn't match CPU ID.
So if I take your two identical iPhones and swap screens today between them, both won't work to 100% anymore, both phones will register different part ID and both will disable a completely unrelated sensor/systems just to spite, purposefully misquoting and abusing the concept of Security.
Someone was paid to write this behavior in code, to ship it in the final product. That's what your 1k+ USD electronics are doing to you today, it gives more options to manufacturer by taking yours away.


TLDR:
Any skilled machinist can take the broken part out, put it together by soldering, welding or casting. It's there - on the table, it's function is clear and is not obscured or serialized to one unique device. Expensive repair as a service? Probably. Doable in a small modern workshop? Absolutely. Especially in the world of laser scanning that can map the replaceable part very precisely + 3D printing gets better by the day.
3D parts can be cast in metal VERY precisely and on budget. And 3D printing is cheap today. Only limiting factor is the size of the thing. If too small, can be sourced from other bodies, broken in different ways. So there's an option in mechanical world - to make it or to take it. Taking in the realm of electronics becomes harder and harder, more and more obstacles are put into place, legal and all.

But there's the Antikythera mechanism - the ancient and precise analog computer of the movement of the sky found in a shipwreck was reconstructed this way - x-rays and all, and brought back to life literally from the antique world.


We can agree that mechanics and electronics are different things. We can also agree that mechanical things aren't putting sticks in your spokes as are digital things doing today in ways as dirty as described above. Forget the schematics and open source thinking, it's on decline today and will go extinct if Right to Repair fails as a concept.

Yes, this doesn't concern the old cameras that much, but your new toy of today will be the retro of tomorrow. Will a device locked to this degree be fixable in a World like this?
This is rotten to the bone, to the level of culture - discard, don't fix. Lithium ion batteries are dangerous, let's cloud our minds with Safety and Security

EDIT:

BrianShaw said:

I’ve heard this nonsense since the 1980’s. BTW.

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Well, locking things down digitally and making them fail earlier than absolutely necessary because capitalism isn't such a nonsense, no? In all fairness, this probably wasn't around technician minds in 80's when things were open and tech was exciting, open venue for geeks to geek out. Then some of those geeks went ape and started to put sticks in spokes, because capitalism and the world is dancing away happily to this sick tune...

No schematic for mechanical part? No problems - it's physically there, let's copy it. No schematic for a chip? It's a useless piece of rock now. And good luck getting any schematics out of the big manufacturers of today - what once was put in every manual now is "Intelectual property".

That's why people choose old, dirty cars for example. Not because they are polluting assholes by the call - but because their cars won't try to control them, won't ask them for a subscription fee for an airbag to work. The extra exhaust at the pipe is just a sad compromise people feel forced to make.

So... I prefer mechanical, I prefer hands-on experience. That's probably why I'm enjoying film over sitting in front of a screen with DLSR on the side.

maevery said:

The general wisdom for decades is, that electronically control cameras fail easily, and that with no spare parts anymore, that there will be no way to fix them. Eventually in the coming decades there shall be a mountain of 1980s-2000s cameras that all failed, and the robust mechanical cameras of the 40s-70s will live on forever.

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I'm a bit late to the party here, but I have to respectfully disagree that this has been general wisdom for decades -- I think it's a more recent thing.

Back when I started getting serious about photography (around 1991), and working for magazines in the early 90s, I don't recall any pro photogs sticking to their old mechanical gear -- they mostly shot with Nikon F4s or F3s, and there might have been a few Canons about. Though as students we were directed to shoot with all-manual cameras -- and there were plenty of K1000s, just as there were still plenty of Volkswagens -- I know plenty of advanced photographers who, just as today, were looking to buy new and expensive gear. Oh, sure, I knew a few crusty folks who stuck with their Spotmatics, but I always suspected that was a matter of economics rather than principles.

I think the mechanical-is-better argument is more a modern one, fueled by nostalgia and the old K1000s and FM2s that so many photographers used to use.

Though my mainstay camera has always been mechanical (Pentax KX), I have long made the argument that electronic shutters have advantages, especially for older cameras, as they are mechanically simpler and more likely to deliver correct timing even without a CLA. I own several such cameras and they work well.

Personally I prefer manual-focus and manual-wind cameras to AF/AW. My N8008 is a magnificent camera, but it's too much like shooting digital for my tastes. I prefer something more rudimentary, though I'm not much bothered as to whether the camera is electronic or all-clockwork, and an aperture-priority mode is certainly a convenience.

In my experience, reliability is pretty much a toss-up, although a broken camera with electronics is more likely to be completely borked. That said, my uncle sent me his Mamiya 1000 DTL; all mechanical but the shutter timing is way off at slow speeds and I don't think the meter works. Probably fixable with a CLA, but having had both mechanical and electronic cameras fixed, I doubt the costs will be much different. An electronic camera might need a donor circuit board and the Mamiya might need a donor photocell. I think both are in the same boat.

Also, I've found that some of the supposedly unreliable cameras -- my Nikon FG springs to mind -- are actually quite reliable. It's actually my favorite Nikon.

Do you think electronic cameras are scapegoated for problems even mechanical cameras suffered from?

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Well, I'd say they are scapegoated for more problems than mechanical cameras, when that isn't actually the case.

Aaron

Ivo… I’ll have to read your lengthy post in detail later. It looks rich in thought. In skimming I saw one really key thought in a single phrase. “I prefer”. That’s the bottom line to the entire discussion.

I think consumer-grade film cameras are the only technology area where electronics are considered less reliable than mechanical equivalent — which may speak more to “consumer grade” than to “film camera”.

BrianShaw said:

Ivo… I’ll have to read your lengthy post in detail later. It looks rich in thought. In skimming I saw one really key thought in a single phrase. “I prefer”. That’s the bottom line to the entire discussion.

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Sure thing, mechanical/electronic/digital gear is a matter of preference. The rest that's said in my lengthy post - factual.

Nodda Duma said:

which may speak more to “consumer grade” than to “film camera”.

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This and absolutely! Many electronic things fail not because of poor design, but of poor choice of materials. Let's remember Capacitor Plague for a quick refresher.

__Brian said:

Surface mounted parts would need to go to a board factory for the repair, it takes specialized skill working under a microscope to replace some of these.

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SMD components, especially the ones that came about during the 80s and 90s, can be easily done at home with a hobbyist setup. No microscope required. It takes a little practice and a pair of tweezers but it’s very much doable. The components you’re describing that require very specialized tools really only came about during the late 2000s.

Under the right circumstances, imo electronic cameras are more reliable than mechanical cameras. The issue really is the custom IC’s that are no longer available but with the right community effort, it is possible to reverse engineer them and we’d have a steady supply of parts again. Anything that was off the shelf can still be sourced or a suitable alternative is available.

The amount of electronic parts that are somehow still in production even though they haven’t been recommended for new designs for decades is staggering. You can still buy a 7400N logic gate, still in its original form unchanged from the 1960s, today from any electronic supplier. I have no idea why it still exists but Texas Instruments wants to keep it around for some reason.

mehguy said:

The components you’re describing that require very specialized tools really only came about during the late 2000s.

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And the truth is - if you have a steady hand, patience and donor boards, even those post-2000's iPhone-sized (sub milimeter) SMD components are replaceable at home and on the cheap - all you need is a microscope, a soldering flux, precision tweezers, hot air station/soldering iron combo and possibly a preheat plate to aid soldering by uniform heating from the bottom.
The reality is - sourcing that toolset, acquiring that skill for a single fix would be just economically stupid, but there's an option and it's not that difficult.

The most difficult problem is identifying the cause of failure when manufacturer won't share any info, any diagnostics tools, any schematics and parts - all are sourced from mythical places in China. And to source the needed part when manufacturer won't provide you with one. And to fight against parts serialization via reprogramming (ID copy/paste) tool. A stupid, needless, damaging game of cat and mouse.

When I repaired iPhones, my daily task was all from screens, buttons and ports (easy) to microchips (a tad harder): Backlight chips, Audio chips, Power ICs, USB IC's... I could fix your iPhone 7 Plus touch and audio problems in an hour or two by changing respective chips (but the cause still remains, it's a flexion caused fault - a por choice of body material I'm powerless against). I could fix your iPhone 6S Backlight problem by replacing blown sub-milimeter fuse hidden under a layer of epoxy-like material in a similar turnaround time.

No math and electronics degree needed. Good, I miss those qualities.

Sometimes I have repaired electronics, in particular analog audio electronics like older guitar effect pedals and amplifiers. (And my cable modem at the start of the pandemic, but that was just a blown power filtering capacitor.) My experience is that integrated circuits hardly ever fail unless they are exposed to an over voltage. Electronic failures are often electro-mechanical: slightly cold solder joints that go bad, flex connectors, broken wires, dirty or open-circuit potentiometers.

The problem is diagnosing the problem. This can be simple in a modest analog circuit like an amp, but very difficult on a complex board, especially if you don't have a repair manual or voltage test points. That's why a repair technique often is "replace the board." It's not because the biggest chip on the board is bad, but because figuring out what actually is bad is too complicated. So I don't necessarily see the fact that some electronic cameras have proprietary ICs as dooming them. Those ICs are likely to last a very long time. In expensive electronic cameras where people are complaining about unrepairability, like the Fuji GA645something, the problems seem to have a lot to do with displays and flex connectors.

Ivo Stunga said:

all are sourced from mythical places in China.

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China really is a godsend in this case. The array of obscure and long since been discontinued IC’s that still pop up on the market somehow over there is quite stunning and really an invaluable resource. I know their handling practices of said IC’s is not ideal but quite honestly it’s good to have the option. Just order a few if you’re worried you get a dud

I’d really love to take a trip to Shenzhen someday. It would really be a sight to behold.

What is the oldest electronic thing you own? I'm sure some of you have hi-fis from the 80s, an old TV with a remote control that still powers up. Your house appliances stil work after decades of constant use. Cars from the 80s have electronics (few but still there) that still work.

Back to cameras. Your infinitely repairable mechanical camera...how repairable is it really? What's the latest wait time and cost for repairing an F2? Or a Leica? I'll tell you on the Leica, £300 and a 6 months wait for an overhaul. I'll accept the £300 but if the 6 months ever become longer I might as well bin the thing.

My father's Praktica is infinitely repairable. It practially has 3 moving parts and a spring in there. Yet it broke. It will cost me £80 to fix that £2 camera, *if* the repairer gets round to sourcing a donor camera to fix it. And then it will be fixed with used old parts. Think about this...if you change your car tyres and you buy used ones, how long do those last?

Not just that, the number of people repairing cameras is getting smaller and smaller every day. The wait times longer and longer. The prices going higher and higher. How long before your camera becomes theoretically repairable but practically junk?

Meanwhile, my 21 year old plastic fantastic Canon EOS 300 works. If it dies I will spend £2 on ebay + £5 postage to buy another one. I'm keeping the M4 too though.

Maybe the future is large format. Wood and cloth and metal, the only dependency being the shutter and you can even do without that given slow enough film.

film_man said:

What is the oldest electronic thing you own? I'm sure some of you have hi-fis from the 80s, an old TV with a remote control that still powers up. Your house appliances stil work after decades of constant use. Cars from the 80s have electronics (few but still there) that still work.

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I concur with this statement. I feel electronics are more reliable than we give them credit for. The old adage of “electronics=unreliable” really isn’t true.

film_man said:

Your infinitely repairable mechanical camera...how repairable is it really?

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Not all cameras come with red dots. You can do some CLA on your own and stop at a point you feel comfortable - who knows, maybe that's enough! A loose wire, dried clockwork, dirty prism, rotted light seals, sticky mirror - all are pretty much accessible with minimal intrusion, doable on your own and only costs are courage and willingness to learn something today.

My other OM-1n body arrived with water damage from eBay. Got it cheap, kept for parts + it came with lens in great condition, go figure. Have done said CLA on my working OM-1n, some contact cleaning + voltage dropping adapter for a silver chemistry cell, and camera works like magic in +30°C and in -25°C [knocks on wood]. That said, it'd be about time to do it again as a preventative measure...

Ivo Stunga said:

Not all cameras come with red dots. You can do some CLA on your own and stop at a point you feel comfortable - who knows, maybe that's enough! A loose wire, dried clockwork, dirty prism, rotted light seals, sticky mirror - all are pretty much accessible with minimal intrusion, doable on your own and only costs are courage and willingness to learn something today.

My other OM-1n body arrived with water damage from eBay. Got it cheap, kept for parts + it came with lens in great condition, go figure. Have done said CLA on my working OM-1n, some contact cleaning + voltage dropping adapter for a silver chemistry cell, and camera works like magic in +30°C and in -25°C [knocks on wood]. That said, it'd be about time to do it again as a preventative measure...

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You are talking about servicing though. What if you have to actually repair it? Not that I have time for either of those tasks. You could indeed spend two weeks trying to figure out how to repair a camera, then another two weeks looking for the part etc etc but time has value in itself, maybe not money but time not spent being with the family or out doing other things. If your thing is repairing old cameras cool, if not then it doesn't matter if it has a red dot or not, it is just as broken and not economically/practically repairable.

Servicing can fix your issue, it happens quite often. Especially if say Light meeter doesn't work due to poor contact that's improved by servicing and you now have a working meter...

Or we pay to those who are into tech and both parties win.

mehguy said:

I concur with this statement. I feel electronics are more reliable than we give them credit for. The old adage of “electronics=unreliable” really isn’t true.

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As long as electronic cameras work, use them. I have a Konica Big Mini. It works really well, and it is my toss in a bag camera for some quick trips. Once it stops working, it likely goes out to the garage. An electronic camera can be had very cheaply (not a Konica Big Mini in most cases), but I would not suggest paying premium pricing for one unless it is something really special.

mehguy said:

I’d really love to take a trip to Shenzhen someday. It would really be a sight to behold.

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There''s video in YouTube of a guy putting together an iPhone from parts sourced there. That WAS an amazing insight!

But here's another one I wanted to share of problems and practicalities fixing electronics today. Some phones rendered unfixable because proprietary stuff, "security" and locking things down that has and will make your future repairs unnecessarily harder - if not impossible. Even with Shenzen around.

The only camera that I've ever owned that failed was my Contax TVS. I loved it. camera, Gave me great pictures in India and Sri Lanka back in the day. Then it went haywire. I'm still thinking of buying another . They are rather inexpensive, but how long will that one last? I did here that it may be possible now to get it repaired, but I can't justify another camera at the moment.