Thought experiment: What if electronically controled cameras are actually no less reliable

Bill Burk · Feb 5, 2022

Vaughn said:
This is why I prefer cameras that don't take batteries.

- reliability
- maintainability
- availability
- dependability

dang...can't get most of those anymore with my body.

- graceful degradation

Now THAT you get with your body too. It’s the high speed that goes first. But even if 1250 and 500 caps on the Contax IIa, there’s always 250.

Craig75 · Feb 5, 2022

If you buy the "premium" point and shoots there is already people repairing them and new parts being fabricated.

There was a point in time between end of film camera sales and service centres closing where these cameras entered a Black hole but that's all changed in last couple of years.

Truzi · Feb 5, 2022

Regardless of mechanical or electrical, some parts would have to be replace or fabricated by a specialist. The advantage mechanical cameras have in this regard is that one can look at and recreate it, even if it is broken.
To do the same with an IC would require knowing what it was and what it did. If it's a standard part, no problem, but if it was purpose-made for the application then we'd have to hope a schematic of the chip existed so it's function could be duplicated.

I've not really repaired cameras, but do work on cars. From a reliability area, I think the electronic controls can compensate for age and wear better (so long as they don't have some weird malfunction that mechanical items cannot have). In cars I've notice _most_ electronically controlled systems can go longer before maintenance is needed, but that maintenance is often more expensive.

It's a bit of a wash.

I have a number of old Kirby vacuums I am rebuilding. When comparing them to newer fancy vacuums I think we have to give weight to the posters who mention planned obsolescence.
A lot of older quality items were made to be serviced, while newer items are made to be replaced, or to be very inexpensive. I think an electronically controlled camera can be designed and built to be just as reliable, or perhaps more so, as a mechanical camera.
How often that occurs in nature, however, is another story.

BrianShaw · Feb 5, 2022

Truzi said:
It's a bit of a wash.

Yup... and maybe, someday, wise people on the internet will repeat this often that it will become, both, common knowledge and general wisdom.

VinceInMT · Feb 5, 2022

This discussion is similar to the ones I see on other forums that I frequent: old Triumph and Volvo cars, 8-track tape players, reel-to-reel tape decks, tube-based audio, etc. Trying to hold back entropy is a tough game. The bottom line is that any device can be maintained forever if money is no object.

Of course, this all applies to us as well. We get to a certain age and condition and it is no longer worth replacing our parts either.

Sirius Glass · Feb 5, 2022

I prefer mechanical cameras because they are easier to get repaired than some of the electronic cameras due to lack of replacement boards and custom chips.

AgX · Feb 5, 2022

Truzi said:
A lot of older quality items were made to be serviced, while newer items are made to be replaced, or to be very inexpensive. I think an electronically controlled camera can be

Luckily there is new legislation here that facilitates repairability and that urges supply of spares for 10years.

Bill Burk · Feb 5, 2022

At first I thought it was targeted to Tesla then saw it was farmers who wanted to fix their own. Then it made more sense.

grat · Feb 5, 2022

They've all got parts that aren't feasible (or even reasonable) to replace. My Konica T3 has a failed light meter (like many of them). It would be $200 to fix, and the camera was $20 when I bought it. It's just a wire (and a tweak for modern batteries), but it requires disassembling 70% of the camera.

My GX680 is a great little(?!) camera, and I've said before if the CPU dies, it's dead. In reality, there's enough information in the service manual in terms of schematics, logic diagrams, signal diagrams, etc., that a capable team could design and build a replacement part. But it would be thousands of dollars.

Similarly, if Jay Leno's team can take a broken part from a Duesenberg, scan it into the computer, create a 3D model, fix the broken/worn aspect of the model, and produce a brand-new part on CNC equipment, then in theory, any mechanical part could be recreated. But the cost is prohibitive.

grat · Feb 5, 2022

Bill Burk said:
At first I thought it was targeted to Tesla then saw it was farmers who wanted to fix their own. Then it made more sense.

John Deere has been leading the field (so to speak) in non-serviceable farm equipment for decades.

Chan Tran · Feb 5, 2022

Regardless I prefer manual cameras but with electronic controlled.

Les Sarile · Feb 5, 2022

maevery said:
But what if this wasn't the case? What if camera technicians never wanted to learn the skill-set that electronic repair takes?
If there is corrosion on the board, a capacitor has failed, a trace has been broken, all of these things will lead to a failure of the entire camera. But diagnosing these things, and fixing them, is just another skill. If the main chip that controls the cameras setting and contains its code broke, then yes, the camera would be likely unfix-able without donor parts. But any other small basic parts (usually these things are what fails) can easily and readily be fixed, even to this day.

In the trades, you want to spend time and money learning something that is sustainable and pays enough.

Used to repair consumer electronics for next to nothing just for fun (tvs, radios, electronic gadgets etc,) but new technology evolves providing better products cheaper so most prefer to upgrade rather then pay cost of repair. If that wasn't bad enough, a lifetime waranty is assumed because the repair must have have broken something else - no matter how unrelated, and now causes other problems. Also looking for the right parts - direct replacement or compatible, as well as docs are not trivial even with search engines.

Although I haven't worked on many cameras yet, I don't anticipate catastrophic electronic failure since 1.5V/3V powered cameras don't provide enough current to destroy things. Instead I expect, corrosion and vibration related issues to be the main contributors to failure. Capacitor deterioration and battery corrosion probably leading the list followed by impact - at least in the cameras I prefer. So far my repairs have been trivial to fix - shutter won't advance or fire and no meter due to minor cleanup.

CMoore · Feb 5, 2022

Cameras with "Electronic Controls" also have LOTS of mechanical parts that can Fail/Break
As others have said, it all depends on what breaks or goes bad.
A simple resistor or cap with known value is probably ":Easy"
More sophisticated proprietary parts might be a nightmare.
The medium that parts are mounted on CAN be micro thin and hard to work with , especially when it comes to de-soldering.
There is no definitive answer
It Depends

wiltw · Feb 5, 2022

maevery said:
The general wisdom for decades is, that electronically control cameras fail easily, and that with no spare parts anymore, that there will be no way to fix them. Eventually in the coming decades there shall be a mountain of 1980s-2000s cameras that all failed, and the robust mechanical cameras of the 40s-70s will live on forever.

But what if this wasn't the case? What if camera technicians never wanted to learn the skill-set that electronic repair takes?
If there is corrosion on the board, a capacitor has failed, a trace has been broken, all of these things will lead to a failure of the entire camera. But diagnosing these things, and fixing them, is just another skill. If the main chip that controls the cameras setting and contains its code broke, then yes, the camera would be likely unfix-able without donor parts. But any other small basic parts (usually these things are what fails) can easily and readily be fixed, even to this day.

What do you think about this thought experiment? Do you think electronic cameras are scapegoated for problems even mechanical cameras suffered from? Or do you believe that because electronic cameras all have some level of irreplaceable chips, they will inherently never be as reliable as a mechanical system.

The problem is that component level repairs are done less and less by techs, in part because individual parts are not available thru manufacturer, but also because the multilayer circuits on which components are mounted can be exceedingly difficult to remove the old component and solder in the replacement component and make good contact thru all the layers.
Also, the original manufacturer may not ever make available a circuit schematic to be able to replace components that meet the exact same specs as the part that fails, with the specialty parts that might not be generally available.
So an entire 'module' might only be the way to repair, and once active manufacturing stops the tech has only the scavenging of same part from a used unit.

wiltw · Feb 5, 2022

AgX said:
Luckily there is new legislation here that facilitates repairability and that urges supply of spares for 10years.

Mandate for EU. It makes me wonder what the budget priced product manufacturers in Far East will do...Yungnuo, Godox, etc., as they provide no replacement parts even for things currently being sold!

https://www.boredpanda.com/eu-recog...oogle&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic

4season · Feb 5, 2022

Some of the challenges of repairing newer cameras have nothing to do with integrated circuits failing due to age, but simply the greater level of complexity, and possible need for costly and specialized tools and skills which are only applicable to one specific product, assuming they can be acquired at all.

But fortunately, there are many repairs which remain within reach of the hobbyist: For example, I can vouch for the efficacy of this Pentax MZ/ZX gear replacement procedure:
http://m.ipernity.com/#/doc/five/album/677141
But don't hold your breath waiting for someone to offer the service to others, because the procedure is labor-intensive, and not many people would be willing to pay enough to make it commercially viable.

mshchem · Feb 5, 2022

I've got plenty of electronic cameras film and, well, the other kind. They're going to be going for many years to come. Don't worry.

Bill Burk · Feb 5, 2022

Chan Tran said:
Regardless I prefer manual cameras but with electronic controlled.

A-1 is a doorstop when the weird battery dies

AgX · Feb 5, 2022

There is no weird battery in the A-1.
In case you refer to its 6V battery, in can be substituted by 4 SR44 size cells of any chemical system.

grat · Feb 5, 2022

Bill Burk said:
A-1 is a doorstop when the weird battery dies

It's a 6V silver or lithium battery of a fairly standard size. What's weird about it?

Chan Tran · Feb 5, 2022

Bill Burk said:
A-1 is a doorstop when the weird battery dies

Sure but anything can fail. But I have not have problem with dead battery unexpectedly in my over 40 years of using cameras. Also what so weird about the battery for the A-1? I can get it easily. By the way I do have an A-1 but I don't think I would ever use it. I use my F3 most of the time for film. I use the F5 but it's too slow.

Sirius Glass · Feb 5, 2022

Chan Tran said:
Sure but anything can fail. But I have not have problem with dead battery unexpectedly in my over 40 years of using cameras By the way I do have an A-1 but I don't think I would ever use it. I use my F3 most of the time for film. I use the F5 but it's too slow.

It would not take a lot of mental effort to figure out that if one uses a camera which requires batteries, that it would behoove that one to carry spare batteries. This logic is much like film shooters carrying extra film and digital shooters carrying extra memory cards. So warned be-hooved. You have now been-hooved. It is better to be-hooved than be-lost.

Paul Howell · Feb 5, 2022

I've had CR5s die after a few rolls, had almost a full charge then in short time no charge, I assume it was a problem with the individual battery, I was on the road, popped in a new battery that lasted about 10 rolls which was normal for the Sigma SA9 I was using at the time.

Bill Burk · Feb 5, 2022

Thanks for the tip that I might be able to stack 4 MS-76 for the A-1

I always carry six of them for my OM-4 which always die when I want to take a shot.

I just don’t always have the 6-volt lying about.

VinceInMT · Feb 5, 2022

My only digital camera is my iPhone. I take it with me on all my distance running and twice this winter it has shut down due to temperature. I suppose running at -5 F is beyond it's operational norms. I don't know if my Minolta SRT 100 would fair much better with its nearly 50-year old grease.

Thought experiment: What if electronically controled cameras are actually no less reliable

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