Thought experiment: What if electronically controled cameras are actually no less reliable

maevery · Feb 5, 2022

The general wisdom for decades is, that electronically control cameras fail easily, and that with no spare parts anymore, that there will be no way to fix them. Eventually in the coming decades there shall be a mountain of 1980s-2000s cameras that all failed, and the robust mechanical cameras of the 40s-70s will live on forever.

But what if this wasn't the case? What if camera technicians never wanted to learn the skill-set that electronic repair takes?
If there is corrosion on the board, a capacitor has failed, a trace has been broken, all of these things will lead to a failure of the entire camera. But diagnosing these things, and fixing them, is just another skill. If the main chip that controls the cameras setting and contains its code broke, then yes, the camera would be likely unfix-able without donor parts. But any other small basic parts (usually these things are what fails) can easily and readily be fixed, even to this day.

What do you think about this thought experiment? Do you think electronic cameras are scapegoated for problems even mechanical cameras suffered from? Or do you believe that because electronic cameras all have some level of irreplaceable chips, they will inherently never be as reliable as a mechanical system.

ph · Feb 5, 2022

the common problem is that manual work is not as well paid and prestigious as having a grand sounding title with a long education certifying ones ability to read ,recall and reason. Hence these professions are dying. They rely on skills requiring years of traning, with trainees on as tight budgets as university students but no prospect of MSc or PhD fanfares and high wages and prestige at the end.

Apart from the lack of craftsmen, changing economies. preferences, fashions amd markets tend to eliminate potential customers for camera repair shops (apart from dealing with guarantee issues). Some of the factors contributing to lack of customers are:

Phone videos and photos compete with digital cameras and phones rapidly get technically outmoded and changed before needing repair.

Owners of 126film and 2x8 equipment have much less urgent need for having their VPExaktas and Paillard stuff kept alive.

And in parallell with changing use, the global access to cheap "slave condition labour" means that buying new has displaced repairing.

The mechanical parts can be made by relatively simple processes, the electronic bits less so. Old style resistors have been replaced by surface mounted equivalents, and multi level circuit boards do not necessarily like a soldering iron- A good example of failing electronics is the Leica R8 early version displays as well as the demise of one of their earlier integrated circuits. and the cabling in one of their compact cameras. If a maker with the legendary quality obsession of E.Leitz GMBH (admittedly merged with the competition and bought by a fashion firm) cannot prevent displays, ICs and cables from early failure, this leaves little hope for lesser producers.

p.

AgX · Feb 5, 2022

In a recent thread on this topic we discussed this "general wisdom". And it became clear that the typical camera repairer cannot rebuilt any broken part of a pure mechanical camera. And already here there is the issue of something being economical feasible. If a mechanical part must be outsourced for custom making this can be more expensive than using a donor camera.

RalphLambrecht · Feb 5, 2022

maevery said:
The general wisdom for decades is, that electronically control cameras fail easily, and that with no spare parts anymore, that there will be no way to fix them. Eventually in the coming decades there shall be a mountain of 1980s-2000s cameras that all failed, and the robust mechanical cameras of the 40s-70s will live on forever.
I Recently posted in the thread discussing the very same thing. In my experience electronic cameras I have a bad rep where is my chemical cameras need far more maintenance and repair them what their reputation suggests.
But what if this wasn't the case? What if camera technicians never wanted to learn the skill-set that electronic repair takes?
If there is corrosion on the board, a capacitor has failed, a trace has been broken, all of these things will lead to a failure of the entire camera. But diagnosing these things, and fixing them, is just another skill. If the main chip that controls the cameras setting and contains its code broke, then yes, the camera would be likely unfix-able without donor parts. But any other small basic parts (usually these things are what fails) can easily and readily be fixed, even to this day.

What do you think about this thought experiment? Do you think electronic cameras are scapegoated for problems even mechanical cameras suffered from? Or do you believe that because electronic cameras all have some level of irreplaceable chips, they will inherently never be as reliable as a mechanical system.

__Brian · Feb 5, 2022

This discussion is similar to one that popped up on RFF. Someone stated that in 20 years replacing a processor on a Digital camera could be done because you can load a soft-core into an FPGA (I am paraphrasing as I've worked with soft-cores in FPGAs). My answer- not without the source code of the original processor- would be next to impossible to emulate an ASIC.

Surface mounted parts would need to go to a board factory for the repair, it takes specialized skill working under a microscope to replace some of these.

1960s style components, tracing the failed discrete component- desolder and replace- "might be possible". A custom IC or obsolete IC goes out, probably not.

Simple control mechanisms such as an electronic shutter: you could probably design a replacement board using a microcontroller to take over the functions.

Much easier to work on mechanical cameras. My Minolta Electroshot sits in a display case, the control board is just a mess. Capacitors leak. My Minolta AL-E that arrived with non-working meter, found the broken wire and managed to resolder it. I am not good at soldering, do not do it much. Hard part was reaching in and getting the broken wire, stripping it, and working in confined compartment space.

Cameras such as an FE2 or N8008s- using CPUs, hard part would be getting the source code of the device.

Would someone pay $500 to get a Minolta Electroshot repaired? Or a Kodak Retina Reflex? Certainly not a Nikon N8008s.

You can still buy Shutter Cocking Racks for the Kodak Retina IIc, IIIc, IIIC, and IIC from Microtools. They had them made. I bought one, and repaired my Retina IIC with one. $25 for the part, and a few hours to get the shutter in phase with the cocking rack. That was not easy!

AgX · Feb 5, 2022

__Brian said:
Surface mounted parts would need to go to a board factory for the repair, it takes specialized skill working under a microscope to replace some of these.

Surface mounted parts can be repaired even at a home workshop, but dedicated soldering tools are most beneficial, especially at desoldering. The real issue at our field is that these parts are mounted typically not on rigid boards, but on foils.

Alan Edward Klein · Feb 5, 2022

My NIkon N6006 wasn't used for around twenty years until recently. It worked perfectly. All the PASM settings worked, rewind, exposure control, metering, zoom control, etc. I checked the shutter settings and they were perfect. I was really pleasantly surprised that everything worked so well. I can't believe they're listed for around $35 to purchase, including the lens. What a buy.
Tmax 400 shots: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/albums/72157716777378896

BrianShaw · Feb 5, 2022

Before you go too far into another thought experiment on this topic, research the definitions of three important, related but different, words:

- reliability
- maintainability
- availability
- dependability

Which one is being referenced in this so-called conventional wisdom?

I’ve heard this nonsense since the 1980’s. BTW.

Don_ih · Feb 5, 2022

It's an attitude issue, actually. We've been trained for decades that electronic devices are to be discarded when broken since the new replacement will be "better", anyway. It never occurs to most people that their point-and-shoot camera can be fixed - it's not something that even hints at registering in the mind. Into the trash it goes.

BrianShaw · Feb 5, 2022

It’s also a design attitude. Manufacturers design for specific levels of replaceable units and establish a supply chain for those parts… for a finite period of time. Planned obsolescence. Then, hopefully, aftermarket suppliers fill the gap until the it’s no longer popular or profitable. Few things are forever.

ic-racer · Feb 5, 2022

We've been trained for decades that electronic devices are to be discarded when broken

My training is in electrical repair.

Alan Edward Klein · Feb 5, 2022

Here's a hijnt I;ve found useful and have used a number of times. Some credit cards extend warranty periods. Check to see if yours does and buy stuff with them. Often they extend warranties by one year. So if you have a one-year manufacturer's warranty, it becomes effectively two years. I bought my Dell computer once with a one-year warranty. It broke about a month before the end of the second year. I called American Express about the problem and they authorized me to have the Geek Squad repair it for around $300. MY friend got a new Nikon when his broke. Later model. Some credit cards even provide coverage due to breakage or theft. There may be a limit in value. Also, these cards provide travel insurance included on all things purchased with their cards, a great way of saving from buying separate travel insurance. Again, check the card. The free cards usually don't carry these freebies.

benjiboy · Feb 5, 2022

Just about every camera that has been mentioned has lasted far beyond the manufacturer's original design brief because all consumer products are envisaged by the manufacturer's design and materials engineers to have a particular future length of service life otherwise if they lasted forever, they would never sell any more cameras.

Paul Howell · Feb 5, 2022

So your point and shoot stops working, who do you send it to? I can get a Spotmatic serviced but not LX.

Alan Edward Klein · Feb 5, 2022

benjiboy said:
Just about every camera that has been mentioned has lasted far beyond the manufacturer's original design brief because all consumer products are envisaged by the manufacturer's design and materials engineers to have a particular future length of service life otherwise if they lasted forever, they would never sell any more cameras.

Their stuff is designed to last one day longer than the warranty period.

benjiboy · Feb 5, 2022

Electronic components in modern consumer products are designed to fail after a period of time, it keeps the wheels of commerce and industry turning.

drmoss_ca · Feb 5, 2022

BrianShaw said:
Before you go too far into another thought experiment on this topic, research the definitions of three important, related but different, words:

- reliability
- maintainability
- availability
- dependability

Which one is being referenced in this so-called conventional wisdom?

I’ve heard this nonsense since the 1980’s. BTW.

Ummm, that's four words.

Jim Jones · Feb 5, 2022

High quality high priced mechanical cameras from many decades ago may be worth repairing now and well into the future for those who value the experience of using or at least owning outdated equipment over the better performing and much less expensive cameras of today. For example: my first Leica (lllf with Elmar 1:3.5) cost me about a month's pay overseas in 1953 as a junior U. S. Navy enlisted man. It would have cost 85% more in the United States. For a month's pay today I can buy a medium grade DSLR camera with zoom lens, auto exposure and focusing, hundreds of exposures on one tiny card, and more. The Leica was much more compact and possibly that lens was slightly sharper. I loved that Leica. I love the photos the modern DSLR easily produces even more than anything done with the Leica. The Leica now rests in display with several other long retired mechanical cameras. Today I'll take a Nikon D5300 outfit to photograph basketball games in a small-town gym. Probably ISO 1600 will be the a good balance between sports mage quality and motion stopping, rather than the ASA 25 Kodachrome that was a favorite for daylight in the Leica. In 1953 the cost per Kodachrome transparency was maybe 9 cents in 1953 money. Now the same old card has recorded perhaps tens of thousands images, and cost what a few rolls of Kodachrome cost in the "good old days."

benjiboy · Feb 5, 2022

Paul Howell said:
So your point and shoot stops working, who do you send it to? I can get a Spotmatic serviced but not LX.

If your point and shoot stops working Paul, you put it in the bin, and buy another.

MattKing · Feb 5, 2022

Those of us who were around and active in photography when the move to electronic solutions ramped up can most likely recall how much we welcomed the improvements that accompanied those changes.
It was exciting to be able to take advantage of those changes.
People didn't buy those new cameras with an expectation that they would last decades - in many cases they already had cameras that had lasted decades, and they wanted to replace those cameras.
If you offered a fully mechanical camera designed for long term use and reparability into today's market, it would cost a fortune and wouldn't be bought by very many people.

Bill Burk · Feb 5, 2022

All the fun in electronics repair is working on high end audio Hi Fi.

Paul Howell · Feb 5, 2022

benjiboy said:
If your point and shoot stops working Paul, you put it in the bin, and buy another.

Point is that in terms of reliability if a camera cannot be or not within economic reason be repaired it has limited reliability. As my point and shoots go bad I do just that toss in the recycle bin and move on. Tossing a point and shoot is one thing, will be another when my Minolta 9 dies.

gone · Feb 5, 2022

The little bitty Nikon FG SLR's are almost impossible to revive when they expire. These cheaper cameras are not made to fix, they're made to replace, while the pro cameras w/ electronics rarely break.

The issue is that mechanical camera repair skills and electronics are two separate fields. I'm a machinist/certified mechanic from the earliest days of NAISE certification, but have no knowledge of the innards of electronic components, and don't want the knowledge either, it doesn't come up enough in my life.

Even w/ autos, we only had one person that did automatic transmissions. Again, it was a highly specialized thing that seldom showed up in our shops, so the rest of us didn't need to have the knowledge or skills for that. I mostly did the electrics, differentials, and A/C installations and repairs, and we all took care of the rest of things. You can't know it all, which is why people specialize.

Chan Tran · Feb 5, 2022

Electronic controlled cameras are not less reliable than their mechanical counterpart. I do agree that although just about any circuitry in an old camera can be duplicated rather easily in functionality but not in form factor. With that I mean that you can relatively easily build a circuit board that duplicate the function of these old cameras using new component but the difficulty is that they don't fit into the camera. So if an electronic component in these camera fails it may be very difficult to replace while fabricating the parts for a mechanical one isn't as difficult.

Vaughn · Feb 5, 2022

This is why I prefer cameras that don't take batteries.

- reliability
- maintainability
- availability
- dependability

dang...can't get most of those anymore with my body.

Electronic cameras. Any device with affordable design specs is still going to fail eventually. And it is going to cost more than the device is worth to fix it, unless drop-in replacement parts are cheaply available - and no further major improvements to the device are possible in the near future.
If a company exists in a market of steadily improving devices, it does not make a lot of sense to stock up on replacement parts of devices that will soon be replaced themselves. As consumers we blast manufacturers for 'planned obselesence', while the manufacturers tear their hair out over the ficklelness of us consumers who as a whole, who don't want to pay for the highest quality, and would rather toss the old and buy the new and improved.

Thought experiment: What if electronically controled cameras are actually no less reliable

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