This Bodes Bad Things For Film & Papers

[MattKing]

....we're still in the analog place.....

While this is certainly true, the reference to inkjet printers helps provide context and makes it clear that the factors that are behind the rise in price for darkroom paper aren't exclusive to the darkroom paper market.

 

[mshchem]

While this is certainly true, the reference to inkjet printers helps provide context and makes it clear that the factors that are behind the rise in price for darkroom paper aren't exclusive to the darkroom paper market.

I suspect that the costs of producing cut sheets of inkjet paper is expensive too. Not like a light sensitive photo paper. Still important to remember that converting the big rolls into perfect lovely sheets is a chore.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I suspect the profit margin on both inkjet paper and the inks themselves is rather obscene. It's basically just specially sized paper - no silver, no gelatin. I once saw the distribution cost of inks for high volume machines. They were marked up about a thousand percent by the time these the hit retail pricing. What they almost give away are the printing machines themselves. Once you've got that, you're hooked into refilling it over and over again. RA4 color printing is more economical.

Of course, even raw book paper has gone up quite a bit in the past several years.

 

[koraks]

Of course, even raw book paper has gone up quite a bit in the past several years.

This is a large part of the issue; paper has just gotten very expensive. A large part of the reason is that it's an energy-intensive product to manufacture. Energy ain't cheap no more.

 

[pentaxuser]

You mention Photrio being a large forum, but I think it is still a very small representation of the overall number of photographers. I imagine there are probably still quite a few people doing darkroom printing, relatively speaking. Keep in mind, also, that many schools still have darkrooms and film photography and darkroom printing classes.

That might well be the case in Texas and the U.S. in general but I see no or little evidence of this in the U.K. Harman tried to set up a grid for communal darkrooms which could be used but that seems to have gone by the wayside due, I suspect to there being so few of such darkrooms and no sign of it increasing

Of course it may be that in matters analogue it is largely the U.S. that sustains b&w darkroom paper

pentaxuser

 

[bfilm]

That might well be the case in Texas and the U.S. in general but I see no or little evidence of this in the U.K. Harman tried to set up a grid for communal darkrooms which could be used but that seems to have gone by the wayside due, I suspect to there being so few of such darkrooms and no sign of it increasing

Of course it may be that in matters analogue it is largely the U.S. that sustains b&w darkroom paper

I don't know about secondary schools, but I think darkrooms are still fairly common in colleges and universities in Britain and Europe.

Kaiser and Kienzle in Germany are still finding customers for their enlargers. Rodenstock in Germany are still finding customers for their enlarging lenses.

And the recent recogniton by the German UNESCO commission of analog photography as an intangible cultural heritage comes with an obiligation and commitment to its preservation.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

This is a large part of the issue; paper has just gotten very expensive. A large part of the reason is that it's an energy-intensive product to manufacture. Energy ain't cheap no more.

Energy isn't as expensive in North America as Europe. And America is a big wood and paper manufacturer, as Canada is. German electricity is three times the cost as the US.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Well, certainly less towns want stinky pulp mills. The type of trees good for pulp grow fast. Forests good for constrution lumber are badly overcut or burned over already; but that's a different story. Good quality book paper has at least doubled in the past decade. Here in the West, diminishing snowfall has significantly reduced hydroelectric generation of energy; so more expensive natural gas is being used, and alas, filthy coal in some areas. Energy pricing is also gamed to a real extent, but I won't go there due to it being another controversial tangent. And now common sense cooperation with Canadian sources has been severed .... A lot of factors in play.

 

[koraks]

Energy isn't as expensive in North America as Europe. And America is a big wood and paper manufacturer, as Canada is. German electricity is three times the cost as the US.

The question is not how the cost of energy compares globally, it's how it develops over time. The global differences are relevant only if you want to account for real production locations. Even then, a discussion about price or cost in the past vs. now is still about historical developments more so than about geographic differences.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

The question is not how the cost of energy compares globally, it's how it develops over time. The global differences are relevant only if you want to account for real production locations. Even then, a discussion about price or cost in the past vs. now is still about historical developments more so than about geographic differences.

This is a large part of the issue; paper has just gotten very expensive. A large part of the reason is that it's an energy-intensive product to manufacture. Energy ain't cheap no more.

Except for a day or so, the price of oil globally today is the lowest it's been in five years. So other things would account for higher prices than global energy costs. These would included local energy production costs and other factors..

 

[DREW WILEY]

When there's a glut of oil, there's no incentive to produce more. Plus a lot of ours goes to export. It's all gamed anyway. The refiners determine the real world pricing for most of us, not the drillers. I was chatting with a Chevron friend of mine a week ago, who has been assigned to Nigeria for the the next two yrs - great job. He works 26 days on, 26 days off, and can travel anywhere he wants on their flight tab during his times off.

 

[GregY]

While this is certainly true, the reference to inkjet printers helps provide context and makes it clear that the factors that are behind the rise in price for darkroom paper aren't exclusive to the darkroom paper market.

the rise in the price of everything recently is not exclusive.....

 

[John Wiegerink]

.............but I thought the prices of everything, including eggs and meat, were suppose to go down in the U.S. after Jan. 2024? Have I been had? I'll just continue to buy and do the things I really enjoy and cut back on stuff I can live without. Life is just to damn short when you're my age to not enjoy my hobbies. Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead!

 

[DREW WILEY]

Well, there are plenty more false promises still going for free; so some things haven't changed.

I just thawed another box of 8x10 color film. It won't do me any good when I'm dead.

 

[mshchem]

This is a large part of the issue; paper has just gotten very expensive. A large part of the reason is that it's an energy-intensive product to manufacture. Energy ain't cheap no more.

Hey Koraks,
So you know what is going on with Fuji and color paper. Does Fuji manufacter the resin coated paper base? I would be surprised if they do today, but at one time Kodak did. I think trees, cellulose, was the reason why George Eastman started the Tennessee operation that today is Eastman Chemical, (which Eastman Kodak sold off because it was just a commodity business).
If you want Estar these folks have nearly all you want (it's been in high demand)

 

[koraks]

So you know what is going on with Fuji and color paper. Does Fuji manufacter the resin coated paper base? I would be surprised if they do today

Indeed, they don't anymore. They used to*, but stopped probably around 15 years ago. They now purchase the paper base from the company virtually every manufacturer buy from. I don't think Kodak is in their supply chain.

*To clarify, it depends a bit on how you define 'manufacture'. AFAIK Fuji never actually made the actual paper base from cellulose fiber in their European manufacturing plants. They did do the PE-lining in-house. I think that's what they stopped doing several years ago.

 

[mshchem]

Indeed, they don't anymore. They used to*, but stopped probably around 15 years ago. They now purchase the paper base from the company virtually every manufacturer buy from. I don't think Kodak is in their supply chain.

*To clarify, it depends a bit on how you define 'manufacture'. AFAIK Fuji never actually made the actual paper base from cellulose fiber in their European manufacturing plants. They did do the PE-lining in-house. I think that's what they stopped doing several years ago.

Oh ,I didn't mean to imply that Kodak was making anything for Fujifilm. (Well other than some color negative film.)
I remember the old Kodak literature showing paper production at Kodak. That's ancient history.

I believe RA-4 is still the fastest, cheapest way to make snapshots. For now.

 

[ezphotolessons]

It won't be long now. A "brick" of TRI-X will soon cost as much as 1/2# of silver nitrate.

 

[Craig]

Based on a rough calculation using the coating density that PE mentioned, the value of silver in a 35mm roll of film, or one 8x10 sheet is under 20 cents at today prices.

As has been mentioned elsewhere, the backing paper for 120 costs more than the film, and the process of making the film will cost more than the silver. Even if the price of silver doubles, that has a very marginal effect on the cost to produce a roll of film.

 

[DREW WILEY]

That's like arguing there's only 50 cents worth of amalgam in a dental filling. But why do they charge you $500? It doesn't get affixed to your tooth by itself.

 

[ezphotolessons]

Beginning in the 1980s they started replacing the silver in black and white emulsion with vinyl and hi-tech. Just like they are replacing our food with SOY, STP and BHT. The reason a filling is $500 and a brick of TriX is $95 is because that's how much they charge, it has nothing to do with reality, they could easily charge less but they don't. That's why I go to a Veterinarian for all my dental work, they charge very little for a filling, and usually recycle the lead slug they pulled out of Butch.

 

[Hassasin]

Which dentists use amalgam ? I really want to know and report them Unless we're in the nostalgia part of the discussion, time reversed back into OGD and Nixon was still in High School.

 

[loccdor]

A few years back I needed a repair to my furnace. It was $500. The repairer said he would give me a great deal and that he only charged $80 for the hour of labor he spent, but he said that the part was $400.

The OEM part was available online for $30. I found this out after I'd paid.

I wasn't angry that I paid $500 for a furnace repair, that's pretty normal. I didn't like that I had been lied to about what I was actually paying for.

 

[ezphotolessons]

Yes the part was available OL but it prbly wasn't the right part. I repair appliances enough to know half the parts sold online are uselessjunk and the other half don't fit, thankfully yourguy new-a-guy. At least I know the slug Dr Bill took out of Butch was hotlead, and I just drink from the toilet and have a dry cough for a few days, I don't know WTF is in my TriX or Riced-a-Ronnie, and I don't think people in San Francisco still think it is a treat. TBH I think it's mostly Guar Gum.

 

[Hassasin]

If that were the case most parts would be worthless and waste of time. But reverse is actually true.