Thinking about getting into Panoramic; which camera?

houstonphotographics · Jan 1, 2015

Hi,

I am seriously thinking about getting into panoramic photography as part of my artistry. Have been looking at several types of cameras for years, but never moved on anything until now. I shoot primarily 120 film as I like the advantage of the larger negative all around, but I know these cameras cost quite a bit especially for a beginner. Have read several opinions about the Horizon cameras, which is the most affordable option to test the waters. If anyone has useful information please post. thanks! Kenneth

wilper · Jan 1, 2015

If you don't mind a bit of DIY you could build a relatively cheap panoramic 120 camera by sticking a fancier lens on the Holga 120 Pan, like this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/rogierwillems/8121163103/in/photostream/

I have seen some very nice shots taken with 100yo Kodak Panoram cameras. They are a bit more on the expensive side though.

I have hacked an old Kodak Autographic folder built for 122 film into using 120. Then I get negatives approx 14x6. Not very expensive in user condition.

Ian Grant · Jan 1, 2015

Welcome to APUG.

I bought a Gaoersi 6x17 camera about 6 or 7 years ago because some images I wanted to make needed a wide panoramic format. I've been very happy with it. It wasn't expensive but I already had 75mm & 90mm lenses to use with it, I think it was about £700 very approx $1100.

Beware 6x17 negatives are too large for a 5x4 enlarger, you need a 7x5 or 10x8 enlarger. Great format though and very useful.

Ian

David Brown · Jan 1, 2015

I am primarily a 120 user, and I would love to have the Noblex Pro6/150, but the cost is prohibitive unless I was to use it a lot. I have a 35mm Horizon and I like it, but admittedly, it doesn't get used much. It is a very specialized image, and is not suitable (IMHO) to general photography.

That said, I would recommend the Horizon to see if you like the pano format and could then justify the cost of a medium format model. The Horizon can always be resold.

And, keep in mind that there is a difference in a pano camera such as the one Ian suggests, and a swing lens camera such as the Noblex or Horizon. For instance, I once considered the Hasselblad Xpan, or its Fuji brother, until I realized that I could shoot a 50mm lens on my Mamiya RB67 and crop to get almost what the Xpan sees with its 45mm lens.

snapguy · Jan 1, 2015

how about

How about a nice wide angle camera developed for the US Navy during World War II to track the path of torpedoes from the belly of a torpedo bomber and modified to make a panoramic camera that shoots a 90-degree wide angle field of view on 120 film, with no distortion? Burke and James of Chicago made such a beast. It was made out of cast iron and the version I bought had one shutter speed, 1/125 sec., and four f stops. The neg or color slide you get is 2 1/4 inches by seven inches. But the pan shots were glorious. I think I saw one recently for sale for $400 or so.

houstonphotographics · Jan 1, 2015

Thank you!
@David- I actually have an RB myself (among too much equipt).. and have considered getting a 50mm for it. I guess you are right I could consider the Horizon for now to see how I like it. End goal with any of these solutions is to have actual prints made for wall hanging, may make a buck or two. Negs will be drum scanned in any case.
@snapguy- I will do research on the Burke/James camera. This has me curious.
Keep the responses coming! Cheers and happy new year to all! Ken

Old-N-Feeble · Jan 1, 2015

The US Navy torpedo cameras are made from cast aluminum, not iron. That would be a very heavy beast in iron.

What ratio do you want to shoot... 1:2, 2:3, 2:5, 1:3, wider? What focal length lenses and do you want to be able to change them? What's your price range? Do you want a rigid body camera with zero movements or one with some or all Scheimpflug capabilities?

houstonphotographics · Jan 1, 2015

I'm thinking 1:3 ratio

snapguy · Jan 1, 2015

semi

I guess I stand semi-corrected. The original B&J literature states that the camera, sometimes called the Panoram, was "custom remodeled" out of cast aluminum. So I suppose that means the original was cast iron. The camera weighed nine pounds which to me is a bit heavy. Solid, if you have a good tripod.

houstonphotographics · Jan 1, 2015

In answer again to the question of aspect ratio; not sure what 1:3 equates in re/120 film but I do like 6x12 or 6x17.

Old-N-Feeble · Jan 1, 2015

snapguy said:
I guess I stand semi-corrected. The original B&J literature states that the camera, sometimes called the Panoram, was "custom remodeled" out of cast aluminum. So I suppose that means the original was cast iron. The camera weighed nine pounds which to me is a bit heavy. Solid, if you have a good tripod.

Heh... if you think the modified B&J Panorama 120 was heavy then you should try lifting the original unmodified torpedo camera with the motor and all the electronics still intact. B&J gutted all the unnecessary bits that aren't needed as a portable manually-operated camera.

Sirius Glass · Jan 1, 2015

I have a WideLux 7 which uses 35mm film. The WideLux 1500 or WideLux Panon 120 Dead Link Removed uses 120 film. The negative size is about 2.25"x 5.0" or 6 cm x12 cm Both use a swing lens so the lenses do not distort.

Vaughn · Jan 1, 2015

7x17 camera would be nice, but I do find that taking two 4x10 images on a single 8x10 sheet of film to be very nice way to work. And a 4x10 neg is fairly easy to work with (8x10 enlarger is possible, but I contact print.) I hope to be making 5x14 images the same way with my 11x14 one of these days.

paul_c5x4 · Jan 1, 2015

Whilst looking for info about Cirkut cameras, I came across a reference to a home-build camera that uses 35mm film and can be scaled up to use 120. Full assembly and usage instructions can be found here: Lookaround Camera.

Dan Fromm · Jan 1, 2015

Houston, since no one's said it yet, 1:3 is very close to nominal 6x17. Some 6x17 roll holders have 56 x 178 gates, are a little wider than 1:3.

As has already been pointed out there are 6x17 roll film cameras. As I don't think has been pointed out there are 6x17 roll holders that fit 4x5 cameras (with spacers) and 5x7 cameras (without).

A 6x17 roll holder on a 4x5 camera has two weaknesses. Difficulty of focusing short lenses to infinity -- the spacer adds extension and the only way to get it back (recessed board) isn't always sufficient -- and vignetting with longer lenses (no solution). Not a problem on a 5x7 if the 5x7 has a Graflok (International) back.

6x17's normal focal length is around 180 mm. This review http://www.largeformatphotography.info/shen-hao-6x17.html says that a 90 mm lens (covers 90 degrees) can be used with one mounted on a 4x5 camera. Some 4x5 monorails, e.g., Cambo SC-2 and a variety of Sinars, are quite inexpensive and might do what you need.

To find more comments from users, use Google Advanced Search at http://www.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en, tell it to search for "6x17" or "6 x 17" in domain http://www.largeformatphotography.info

If you want to shoot 6x12 (aspect ratio < 2.5, not to be discussed in this forum) a 4x5 view camera with Graflok back as I've suggested will do you. That's what I use to shoot 6x12 with a hybrid Cambo (2x3 front standard, 4x5 rear). The shortest lens I can use is 35 mm, the longest is 900 mm, by an odd coincidence my longest LF lens. Oh dear! I've mentioned 6x12 again.

Ian Grant · Jan 2, 2015

Vaughn said:
7x17 camera would be nice, but I do find that taking two 4x10 images on a single 8x10 sheet of film to be very nice way to work. And a 4x10 neg is fairly easy to work with (8x10 enlarger is possible, but I contact print.) I hope to be making 5x14 images the same way with my 11x14 one of these days.

I do like the idea of 4x10 as I have a couple of 10x8 cameras but size/weight is a big issue when out walking, however I now have 3 Seneca 7x5 cameras and may make a panoramic camera from a City View missing a lot of parts, the camera itself won't be modified I'll just add a new back, I've already made a panel for the front standard so I can use Linhof/Wista style lens boards.

The idea is to use the Seneca with a choice of 3 backs, 7x5, 5x4 or 6x17. Unlike Dan I see a 75mm as my normal lens for 6x17, in fact it's now the only lens I use. I did try a 90mm SA with my Gaoersi but found the focal length a touch to long, I guess this is more about the areas/subject matter I shoot which precludes the use of longer lenses. The 120 Noblex uses a 50mm lens to shoot 6x12s, the 35mm Widelux a 26mm so effectively wider than my 75mm with 6x17 in the vertical aspect.

Ian

Steve Smith · Jan 2, 2015

wilper said:
If you don't mind a bit of DIY you could build a relatively cheap panoramic 120 camera by sticking a fancier lens on the Holga 120 Pan, like this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/rogierwillems/8121163103/in/photostream/

I was going to do that - then I built the whole thing: http://stevesmithphoto.webs.com/pano612.html

Steve.

Mick Fagan · Jan 3, 2015

I have the Horizon 202 which is a wonderful little camera, not the best, but wonderful for straight and sometimes bent, picture taking.

The negative size is 24x57mm and is printable for the entire image. I have gotten 23 frames from a roll, but that is tight and self loaded.

The camera has six shutter speeds that are made by selecting one of two rotating speeds with three shutter slit sizes that are governed by the one of three shutter speeds you select.

I found that I almost always use the handheld under the camera grip for walking around fun shots. With serious stuff I use a tripod and found the viewfinder to be remarkably accurate in showing what you will or will not get on the negative.

It is possible to shoot handheld and by being careful, one can control the bubble level as you look through the viewfinder to get pretty close to dead accurate horizon level pictures.

Being a swinging lens camera you can really play around for in camera effects, one such is here:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Whilst I would not suggest it is in the same category as the other panoramic cameras, its not too bad an operator.

If you pick one up second hand, chances are if you dont like it for whatever reason, you should pretty much get your money back. I bought mine brand spanking new about five minutes after seeing one for the first time. City scapes with this little camera and the pictures I sent to the friends and rellies in Germany after using the Horizon in Germany, are where this camera surprises everyone.

Nothing like curved and tapering buildings in tight old world cities and towns to perk ones photography up.

It uses a 28mm lens and I would suggest you acquire the stick in filters that came with the camera, well mine did anyway and they store in the quickly detachable hand grip for immediate availability.

The exterior is a hard plastic, the interior working bit is all metal, well it seems that way when looking inside and it certainly feels heavy.

I havent put that much film through mine, around 200 rolls tops but I happened to have it in my hand over Christmas New Year, great negs.

Have a look here and check out his review by clicking on the image of his camera then scroll down in his written review and click on his, here under the paragraph heading, Sample Images.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Mick.

Richard Man · Jan 3, 2015

It really depends on what type of photography you like to do. For the "ultimate" quality on landscape and "things that don't move", e.g. Koudelka style, the 617 is a great compromise. As people mentioned, you have choices of rigid bodies (e.g. Fotoman, Gaoersi) that is even handheldable (for people bigger than me). If you want the utmost in view camera movement, the Shen Haoi 617 view camera is great. If you want something really portable, the XPan and the Widelux are great options. Somewhat in between are the Noblex.

In particular, one of the strongest forte of the XPan is in fact its documentary use potentials. It handles like a big 35mm camera and when it works, it really works. If you put it on a tripod and use slow film etc., I even have 52" x 24" prints from XPan that look great.

You can also use 4x10, 7x17 etc. but those are much heavier and bulkier options.

I personally have been photographing with the XPan since 2007 and the Shen Hao 6x17 since 2010. Both are great for what they do.

fastw · Jan 3, 2015

Tried both the Xpan and the Horizon. Stayed with the Horizon because it's cheaper, less distorted and sharper, yes , sharper. Have an almost 1.5 metre long print on the wall and it's very sharp. Probably not as reliable though.

Richard Man · Jan 3, 2015

fastw said:
Tried both the Xpan and the Horizon. Stayed with the Horizon because it's cheaper, less distorted and sharper, yes , sharper. Have an almost 1.5 metre long print on the wall and it's very sharp. Probably not as reliable though.

I have made 52" long pano with my XPan images that I am very happy with as well. They hung in a restaurant for 3+ years so lots of people have seen them. In any case, did you use the same aperture etc.? I can see the edges lose slightly because the horizon photographs with a center slice.

In the end though, pano ala XPan/617/etc. are different experience and look than swing lens cameras. I have not play with any swing lens camera at all, but might pick up a Widelux eventually. Certainly great images have been made with them.

Regular Rod · Jan 3, 2015

HolgAgon! £167.86 including lens is what mine cost.

Full instructions here: http://freepdfhosting.com/b316cbe2ff.pdf
Sample:

Lightweight, low-cost, practical it's become an important tool for much of my photography. It can even be made easy to use hand held with one of these:

RR

houstonphotographics · Jan 3, 2015

I actually read a lot of information on the Holga 617 converts, and for a 617 camera that is where I am going to start, purely from a cost perspective. I have a co worker who has a lot of the tools/garage shop to do the hack for me. All I need to do is pickup the lens and attachments to the holga body. I know the bodies are selling on FleAbay for about $77, with dozens being sold. It looks like a lot of people are picking up on this same idea. I also agree with the look of the swing lens camera, which is different. Also will look into a Horizon to start off. End goal would be to have some large wall art prints from these, possibly with a buck or two being made.... A Widelux swing lens is what I want ultimately for that type of camera. gotta start somewhere. Please keep the opinions coming as I have learned quite a bit. First time poster here on Apug. Kenneth

houstonphotographics · Jan 3, 2015

forgot to mention in the above re/ eventual swing lens camera want; 120 format..

Dan Fromm · Jan 3, 2015

Look into Seitz cameras.

Thinking about getting into Panoramic; which camera?

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