These can't be air bells! Or are they?

[MattKing]

Also, the YouTuber in the first video claims in another video that he didn't see any edge marking on his Ilford Pan F film which exhibited the problem. I wonder if the edge markings are so faint that he just didn't see them. And this is very similar to one of the 2 Ortho I am talking about here. The edge markings on both rolls are very faint, but for one of them, the markings are so extremely faint that I can just very barely make out the markings using a loupe and light table.

Pan F is extra-ordinary in respect to its latent image keeping properties - they are truly lousy.
And edge markings are, of course, exposed at the factory at the time of manufacture.
So faint edge markings are very common with Pan F, even if the film is in perfect condition.
With Pan F, edge marking visibility doesn't tell you much of anything - no clues to be found there.

 

[koraks]

Is it certain that this YouTuber did in fact have Ilford Pan F+? I say this because there has been some "Polypan F" out there, which is/was a cine product from Germany as I understand. Apparently it was a panchromatic film stock used for duplicating purposes (?) . It was at some point repackaged for still photography with an ISO 50 rating and with a design and color scheme that mimicked that of Ilford Pan F+. However, it had nothing it all to do with the Ilford product. It had no edge markings. AFAIK it only ever came in 35mm. It wouldn't have been the first person to mistake it for Ilford Pan F+, but it was a totally different kind of film.

 

[pentaxuser]

As Mat says Pan F is a particular case and a bit of a "one-off" in this respect in the Ilford range. I haven't heard of a similar faint edge number problems with Ortho 80 Plus

That is not to say that it might not be a problem with the Ilford Ortho 80 Plus in question but as this is a relatively new film it suggests that the problem may lie in transport and storage conditions. Here's what the OP said :

"No idea how old it is. The films actually belong to a fellow member of my local photo club and he in turn found these 2 rolls (sealed in original packaging) in the new house he had just bought. So he just shot some pictures of his new house with them. When he handed them to me, the paper wrapper didn't look old, but who knows how old the film actually is. I too suspect that the film may be quite old."

So as long as he knows it to be Ilford Ortho 80 Plus the only thing we do know is that his last sentence is not the case

The problem is that even if the previous owner of the house, the OP's friend, were able to find out the history of the film from the previous owner who left the films there that latter person, assuming him to be the first owner of the film, may know nothing about the history of the film from Mobberley to wherever he purchased it from. Indeed it is unlikely he will know the history

At the end of the day the only likely positive outcome is that his friend contacts Ilford with samples of the negative and possibly is asked to return the negatives for further examination whereupon depending on Ilford's findings he may receive replacement films free of charge

pentaxuser

 

[250swb]

Ilford Ortho 80 Plus was introduced in 2019 so forget age, if you bought it in 2019 it's probably only just reached its 'best before' date. And it's sealed in plastic so forget old paper wrapping letting moisture in. This is an acknowledged problem with 120 film that Ilford have fessed up to and no amount of pipe smoking and playing the fiddle will reveal anything deeper. And if anybody wants to say it's a storage problem I agree, the problem being in 'storing' the film next to it's backing paper which attacks the film over time. This was a lesser problem if the film was used factory fresh, but I guess it explains why now it's showing up so often with film that is a couple of years old.

Ilford have since solved the backing paper issue but as with any film buy it from a retailer who has a large turnover to ensure it's totally fresh stock and don't buy more than you immediately need if you can help it. I'm sure many of us have used films and have films in our fridges that are well beyond their best before date and keep using it happily in the knowledge the results will be great, but it doesn't mean a fresher film can't have it's own problems similar to the backing paper glitch.

 

[pentaxuser]

This was a lesser problem if the film was used factory fresh, but I guess it explains why now it's showing up so often with film that is a couple of years old.

Ilford have since solved the backing paper issue

I wonder what the incidence is of what the OP describes when he processed his friend's film. "So often", your phrase suggests it has been a frequent problem.

Here's Ilford's statement in which a lot of emphasis is placed on events after leaving the factory but yes not exclusively so and the only 2 films mentioned are Pan F and FP4+

No mention of the incidence of problems but then again you might not expect Ilford to reveal the incidence anyway

Ilford statement: In March 2020 we issued a statement in relation to instances of spots / mottle affecting a small percentage of 120 roll film negatives.
The quality of our products and the satisfaction of our customers is paramount and something the ILFORD name has been built on for over 140 years. Our R&D team were tasked with resolving this issue and so we would like to update you as to what they have been up to.
With your help we have been able to more accurately track and identify instances of spots / mottle on our 120 films. Your feedback (via www.ilfordphoto.com/product-feedback) has, and continues to be, a great help in enabling us to build a better understanding of the issue and, more importantly, has allowed us to put in place a range of corrective actions over the last two years.
Many of these actions focus on the handling of our 120 films as the problem often arose or was exacerbated by heat, humidity and film age. These have included additional production environment controls in manufacturing and advisories for our global distribution network for shipping and storage. We have also implemented a number of important changes to make the films more robust as well as refinements to our wrapper production coating and substrates.
All of these incremental changes were successfully phased into our operations with each requiring a period of in-depth testing.
We are pleased to say that as a result we have continued to see significant improvements in the stability of our 120 films in our extreme testing conditions and no detrimental impact on their performance or characteristics. We therefore expect the number of instances of spots/mottle to further reduce as the films continue to work their way through our worldwide supply chain.
It is worth noting that with all films, but in particular roll films, issues may occur due to extremes of humidity, heat and age. We would therefore like to take this opportunity to share the best ways to care for your films:

STORAGE​

All of our films, regardless of format, should be stored below 20 oC / 68 oF as shown on the bottom of each box. It is important to avoid extreme high temperatures, humidity, or fluctuating temperatures.

TIME​

All films have an expiry date which is printed on the bottom of each box at the time of manufacture. We recommend processing before that date and as soon as possible after shooting. Shooting expired or 2nd hand film always carries a much greater degree of risk.
Finally, we want to reiterate our gratitude for your ongoing support and patience, and continued trust in ILFORD products as we have worked through this issue. In particular, we would like to offer our sincere thanks to anyone who has contacted us using our feedback form - please continue to do so as this enables us to replace any impacted films.

Q&A​

WHY HAVE YOU WAITED UNTIL NOW TO UPDATE US?​

Each incremental change we make requires a series of extensive tests which attempt to recreate or replicate the issue. As the problem is rare and not specific to a film or batch, real world testing is not feasible. As such, each change undergoes multiple accelerated aging tests as well as exposure to extreme heat / humidity to try and ‘force’ the issue to appear as well as tests to ensure that the product and its characteristics are not impacted. Each test take time to prepare, conduct and analyse.
We started our investigation shortly before the COVID-19 pandemic began here in the UK. At which point we had no idea the impact it would have on all of our lives or how we work. Unfortunately, but unsurprisingly, this has had a knock-on effect on our progress due to additional safety measures and working practices on site to protect our staff.

DOES THIS AFFECT ALL YOUR FILMS?​

This issue is only relevant to 120 roll film and does not impact any of our 135 (35mm) or sheet film products.
The issue of spots / mottle on 120 film negatives is still rare and has primarily, but not exclusively, been seen in our slower speed films such as PAN F and FP4. The degree of the issue varies significantly and is also not linked to specific batches of film.
Again, while not exclusively, it also more prevalent in films close to or past their expiry date. We have also seen more cases in hotter / humid climates than colder ones.

CAN I RETURN MY UNUSED FILMS?​

We will continue to replace any films confirmed as impacted by this issue. Please continue to report these via our feedback form: www.ilfordphoto.com/product-feedback
Unfortunately, we cannot take unused films back once they have left our factory as we have no control over how they have been stored or treated subsequently.

IS THE PROBLEM FIXED?​

Mottle on film, while very rare, can happen due to factors such as heat, humidity and age. Therefore there is a risk it could present itself in expired or poorly stored film, regardless of manufacturer.
The last 24 months has seen a higher than usual level of complaints which is far from acceptable to us and you, our customers.
We believe the combination of the changes we have been making over this period will counteract this and greatly reduce instances of mottle, particularly with proper care and storage of the film.
That said our feedback form will remain open and our investigation will continue as we constantly look for ways to improve all aspects of how we make our products. It is worth noting that any future changes we make to how products are manufactured would again be incrementally introduced and would have no impact on the way you use them or their performance.

WHY ARE WE SEEING THIS ISSUE NOW AND NOT IN PREVIOUS YEARS?​

We have been producing 120 films for many years and are one of only a few manufacturers around the world that retain the capability to do so on a large-scale volume. 120 film is traditionally a more temperamental product to manufacture than its 35mm equivalent. Fundamentally it lacks the protection offered by the cassettes. And, unlike 35mm film it needs a paper backing which can ‘transact’ with the film if not properly cared for.
With that in mind we do not believe there is a specific event or change that has caused these occurrences of mottle. Instead, several factors could have contributed to this, both during the manufacture process but also where and how film is bought, sold, stored, and used.

RELATED POSTS​

 

[250swb]

I wonder what the incidence is of what the OP describes when he processed his friend's film. "So often", your phrase suggests it has been a frequent problem.

Here's Ilford's statement in which a lot of emphasis is placed on events after leaving the factory but yes not exclusively so and the only 2 films mentioned are Pan F and FP4+

No mention of the incidence of problems but then again you might not expect Ilford to reveal the incidence anyway

Ilford statement: In March 2020 we issued a statement in relation to instances of spots / mottle affecting a small percentage of 120 roll film negatives.
The quality of our products and the satisfaction of our customers is paramount and something the ILFORD name has been built on for over 140 years. Our R&D team were tasked with resolving this issue and so we would like to update you as to what they have been up to.
With your help we have been able to more accurately track and identify instances of spots / mottle on our 120 films. Your feedback (via www.ilfordphoto.com/product-feedback) has, and continues to be, a great help in enabling us to build a better understanding of the issue and, more importantly, has allowed us to put in place a range of corrective actions over the last two years.
Many of these actions focus on the handling of our 120 films as the problem often arose or was exacerbated by heat, humidity and film age. These have included additional production environment controls in manufacturing and advisories for our global distribution network for shipping and storage. We have also implemented a number of important changes to make the films more robust as well as refinements to our wrapper production coating and substrates.
All of these incremental changes were successfully phased into our operations with each requiring a period of in-depth testing.
We are pleased to say that as a result we have continued to see significant improvements in the stability of our 120 films in our extreme testing conditions and no detrimental impact on their performance or characteristics. We therefore expect the number of instances of spots/mottle to further reduce as the films continue to work their way through our worldwide supply chain.
It is worth noting that with all films, but in particular roll films, issues may occur due to extremes of humidity, heat and age. We would therefore like to take this opportunity to share the best ways to care for your films:

STORAGE​

All of our films, regardless of format, should be stored below 20 oC / 68 oF as shown on the bottom of each box. It is important to avoid extreme high temperatures, humidity, or fluctuating temperatures.

TIME​

All films have an expiry date which is printed on the bottom of each box at the time of manufacture. We recommend processing before that date and as soon as possible after shooting. Shooting expired or 2nd hand film always carries a much greater degree of risk.
Finally, we want to reiterate our gratitude for your ongoing support and patience, and continued trust in ILFORD products as we have worked through this issue. In particular, we would like to offer our sincere thanks to anyone who has contacted us using our feedback form - please continue to do so as this enables us to replace any impacted films.

Q&A​

WHY HAVE YOU WAITED UNTIL NOW TO UPDATE US?​

Each incremental change we make requires a series of extensive tests which attempt to recreate or replicate the issue. As the problem is rare and not specific to a film or batch, real world testing is not feasible. As such, each change undergoes multiple accelerated aging tests as well as exposure to extreme heat / humidity to try and ‘force’ the issue to appear as well as tests to ensure that the product and its characteristics are not impacted. Each test take time to prepare, conduct and analyse.
We started our investigation shortly before the COVID-19 pandemic began here in the UK. At which point we had no idea the impact it would have on all of our lives or how we work. Unfortunately, but unsurprisingly, this has had a knock-on effect on our progress due to additional safety measures and working practices on site to protect our staff.

DOES THIS AFFECT ALL YOUR FILMS?​

This issue is only relevant to 120 roll film and does not impact any of our 135 (35mm) or sheet film products.
The issue of spots / mottle on 120 film negatives is still rare and has primarily, but not exclusively, been seen in our slower speed films such as PAN F and FP4. The degree of the issue varies significantly and is also not linked to specific batches of film.
Again, while not exclusively, it also more prevalent in films close to or past their expiry date. We have also seen more cases in hotter / humid climates than colder ones.

CAN I RETURN MY UNUSED FILMS?​

We will continue to replace any films confirmed as impacted by this issue. Please continue to report these via our feedback form: www.ilfordphoto.com/product-feedback
Unfortunately, we cannot take unused films back once they have left our factory as we have no control over how they have been stored or treated subsequently.

IS THE PROBLEM FIXED?​

Mottle on film, while very rare, can happen due to factors such as heat, humidity and age. Therefore there is a risk it could present itself in expired or poorly stored film, regardless of manufacturer.
The last 24 months has seen a higher than usual level of complaints which is far from acceptable to us and you, our customers.
We believe the combination of the changes we have been making over this period will counteract this and greatly reduce instances of mottle, particularly with proper care and storage of the film.
That said our feedback form will remain open and our investigation will continue as we constantly look for ways to improve all aspects of how we make our products. It is worth noting that any future changes we make to how products are manufactured would again be incrementally introduced and would have no impact on the way you use them or their performance.

WHY ARE WE SEEING THIS ISSUE NOW AND NOT IN PREVIOUS YEARS?​

We have been producing 120 films for many years and are one of only a few manufacturers around the world that retain the capability to do so on a large-scale volume. 120 film is traditionally a more temperamental product to manufacture than its 35mm equivalent. Fundamentally it lacks the protection offered by the cassettes. And, unlike 35mm film it needs a paper backing which can ‘transact’ with the film if not properly cared for.
With that in mind we do not believe there is a specific event or change that has caused these occurrences of mottle. Instead, several factors could have contributed to this, both during the manufacture process but also where and how film is bought, sold, stored, and used.

RELATED POSTS​

Well load your pipe and suck on this recent thread

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...yrocathd-tf4-please-help.193761/#post-2582484

 

[pentaxuser]

Well load your pipe and suck on this recent thread

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...yrocathd-tf4-please-help.193761/#post-2582484

Well I am aware of the Photrio thread but when I click on the Steve Barnett one all I see is pages of photos. Perhaps you can help me get to the text that covers the complaint

If I have to join flickr to do this then sorry I will not so in that case can you cut and paste it for me and others who may wish to read it?

No-one, least of all Ilford is saying that there was no problem I was simply inquiring about the incidence in terms of what percentage it is of sales of 120 film. "So often" indicates to me that it was a reasonably high incidence but it is important to identify the Ilford failure rate from the factory and the subsequent failure rate from factors beyond Ilford's control because proper storage conditions were not met

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Tom-Thomas]

Well, my friend is going to contact Ilford about issue. We'll shall see.

But, here is a wild theory of mine. This spots/mottle problem with 120 films seems to be a recent issue and by recent I mean the last few years coincides with the renaissance of film photography. Now, I don't shoot MF, I went from 135 to 4x5 LF but up until the decline of film photography in the early 2000's, I had processed a lot of films (10's of thousands) in my long career as a custom printer and photo lab manager. During that time, I had never even once seen this spots/mottle problem with 120 films. I am thinking that during the long period of hiatus of film photography, film manufacturing was way lower than before during the hey days. Plants were closed, film discontinued, film professionals changed career, ownerships changed hands, etc. I mean, don't you think the film manufacturers had lost some talents and with them their knowledge during this long down time? Do you all think this has some residual effects on the apparent lower quality controls of film manufacturing now that film photography is back? Just a wild guess.

 

[MattKing]

Its got more to do with the massive changes in the paper and printing industries. The problems didn't really accelerate at Kodak until they finally used up the huge amount of stored backing paper that they had manufactured prior to the precipitous collapse in sales volumes when film usage nearly disappeared.
The manufacturing capacity was sold off by Kodak and they took years to use up the stored paper. When they went out to start buying it again, a lot of paper manufacturing had changed completely, as had the types of ink used predominantly in the printing industry. And in the meantime, films had been tweaked as well.
It now costs Ilford, at least, and most likely Kodak as well, more money to buy the backing for a roll of 120 than it does to make the film that goes with it.