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The Perfectly Exposed Negative

David A. Goldfarb

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I think of this in a fairly practical way. It's not like the "perfect negative" has mystical properties other than printing easily onto the target paper.

This is a scan of a neg that was targeted for Azo on the basis of testing I had done previously and prints perfectly on Azo G2 with no manipulation--

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Sorry it's a neg scan, but when I tried scanning the print, I got too many surface artifacts on my scanner, so the best I could do was to scan the neg with the print in hand and match it as best I could on screen. You're welcome to stop by and look at the print.

When I was trying to determine how much contrast I needed for albumen printing, I tried this negative and it came out too flat, but I was able to figure out that I needed one zone more contrast for albumen than I needed for Azo G2, and I could use most of my existing development charts to determine the development time required for negs to be printed on albumen without too much additional testing.
 
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Having seen the spun aluminum lamp print in the flesh I know that Jason hit goodness one way or another. The print is remarkable in its presence and quality, so there is evidence that his method of extracting the most out of the range of a negative works for taking it to the limit.
Interesting examples, Jason. If I was more organized I probably would have done film speed testing. When I come back from photographing sheets I don't even have a system of knowing which sheet is which. I am too lazy for it, and too eager to burn film. Taking notes slows me down when I hold the camera. That's why I started developing film by inspection. I made sure that I got enough oomph in the shadows and would then proceed to develop the negatives until they looked right under the dark green safelight. Worked for a couple of years until I found myself with a severe backlog of sheets to process and finding no time to set my darkroom up to do the film developing. So I bought a Nikor tank and run it all through at a standard time... At least that's the plan. I just bought it and the initial tests were looking much less than promising... But that's a different story.

What I'm trying to say is that a part of my wishes I had more time and patience for a more scientific and precise approach. The other part of me wishes me to shut up and just go with the flow and enjoy my indulgences in photography, and if there is one thing I do not enjoy it's processing film. I love printing, and that's why I like processing film by inspection. If only I had the time to do it.

- Thomas

 

Chuck_P

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I like John P. Schaefer's take on the "the perfect negative":

"The ultimate goal of the Zone System is not to create a "perfect" negative from which a "perfect" print can be made without dodging, burning-in, and the like. The perfect Zone System negative simply embodies the right amount of negative density and contrast to allow the photographer to create an expressive print with a minimum amount of effort and darkroom gymnastics."
 

Chuck_P

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JBrunner;591607 Many people who poo poo this stuff ..........[/QUOTE said:
LOL, this slays me.

And nice communication on the subject all the way around.

Chuck
 

Christopher Walrath

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Ray, I gave you mine. I don't give a rat's holy hell what anyone else says about it. (just for emphasis you realize).
 

Michel Hardy-Vallée

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It's hard to have a better answer than the one Jason Brunner gave, because it shows very clearly that exposure is "perfect" only when light, subject, intention, negative contrast, tonal placement, and paper grade all come together, and serve each other.

In 35mm, I do not attempt to achieve such precision work, so I think the best I've done with consciously matching light, contrast, and subject, are in these portraits:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I had one hour to take pictures of my friend and his sister for their mom's birthday. It was already 6PM (in summer, though), and the sky was cloudy, after rain. So I sat them in a café by the window to make sure I would have enough light and contrast. I rate tri-x at 250 in XTOL 1+1 to get good shadow detail, and develop 7' to keep a thin negative (low grain) without blown highlight. Here, I could have developed a bit more to augment contrast, but I don't think it's a good idea in 35mm. It's a compromise at best, but I usually work in light conditions that fit that kind of processing. In this case, my appreciation of the light was decent. I have all tones from black to white at the right place.

I based my exposure on skin tones, because that's what I wanted to reproduce. Camera TTL meter +1 stop gave me f/2 1/60. Because the light is very soft, it's a mostly midtones picture. I learned later that XTOL is a good developer for midtones, so I had luck here.

I printed on Kentmere G3, toned in selenium. Overall, it's not precision work, but I think I put the right principles in the right place. Probably because failure was not an option!
 

Bruce Osgood

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yep, succint, to the point and really moves the discussion forward

Ok. The negative is an interim step to a print. In and of itself it is nothing. It is a negative, not a positive. There is no such thing as a perfect film negative. All negatives can be used to produce a perfect print. Trying to make a perfect negative is foolish. Trying to make the best negative is a great ambition and deserves testing of materials etc. We judge our negatives by what they produce as positives.

Try trolling "The Perfect Print".
 

Paul Verizzo

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It's great, Ray.

First, for guessing on ISO, development, and exposure, an amazing success.

I see highlight detail on the fence post.

If this was a print made with current equipment and knowledge, yes, as Joe says, it is terrible. But it wasn't. The tonality fits the equipment perfectly. It has a genuine "old time look" that I appreciate. IMHO, Joe has lost sight of how a photo impacts us subjectively and emotionally is all that really matters. Densities, contrast, etc. are all just ways of explaining and comparison. They should never be the canon. (Yes, small "c.") The bottom line is how does the image grab you? Yours grabbed me.

I would imagine Matthew Brady would have been extremely pleased.
 

smieglitz

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IMHO, Joe has lost sight of how a photo impacts us subjectively and emotionally is all that really matters.

Paul,

This thread started as a spinoff of a technical discussion and that is what I addressed in my response.

If anything, your attraction to the image in question and your projection of what I feel (or don't) is subjective as well.

FWIW, the comments I made come from someone who also uses old and handmade equipment, unpredictable emulsions, selective focus, major guessing at ISO (as in ISO 0.5), and in-camera vignetting, etc.

I'm glad you had some emotional response to the image Ray posted. Realize however, that is a matter of personal taste.

If you peruse the various APUG galleries you will notice that I frequently comment positively on the emotional impact various photographs have upon me. Ray's photograph did not have such an effect and so I limited my response in line with his request for technical feedback.

Joe
 

Vaughn

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When I make a platinum/palladium print with no contrast agent, and the print ends up ugly with too much contrast, I say,
"Wow! This is a perfect negative for carbon printing!" And there is no way to get a decent print on silver gelatin paper with it!

When I was silver printing, I tended to favor 4x5 negs that were slightly on the thin side that would print well on Grade 3 Portriga Rapid III. That was perfect form me...probably not for someone else. I would expose the 16x20 paper a little light, then spend about 10 to 15 minutes burning in the image. It was an enjoyable way to work.

Vaughn
 
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fhovie

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I guess a lot of this is personal taste - I went through my "catch all zones" phase and found my work to be flat. So I changed film to one that is snappier and went to an hour of stand processing and now I generally get 5 stops of scene brightness to fit in the density range to give me a full spread of black to white on grade 2 paper. This is not a one size fits all solution but it is most things to most scenes and I keep a plan B in my hip pocket. All this is to say that expansion is the norm for me and it gives me the look I want. There are a zillion different tastes and a zillion ways of accomplishing the same thing - I try to stay with answers that are robust enough to accommodate a stop or so error in any situation and still print well.
 
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keithwms

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Ray, I don't think "perfectly exposed negative" is the right way to go at this! What an annoying concept!

A photograph is successful or it is not. That's all. I have negs that are not perfectly exposed but which nevertheless are far more dear to me than perfectly executed exposures.

Now, kindly do not ask me to post my imperfectly exposed negs! I don't like it when I have to work hard to get what I want out of a neg! Like anybody else, I do my level best to nail my exposure as best I can. But first and foremost I am concerned with feeling that a shot is worth taking.

"Perfection" is just one more thing after another. "Worth" is something real and achievable by mere mortals.

If I really must sport a neg that I consider to be "perfect," well I would say that is a neg that [contact] printed very easily with no contrast adjustments etc. The tones were precisely where I wanted them, straight out of the tray. For me, an example would be this one, which is a 5x7 contact print from fp4+.

 
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Ray Heath

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i totally agree Keith

i just wanted to give the posters who constantly write that testing is "the" most important part of monochrome photography the chance to show their 'superior' results

i'm still waiting to be convinced
 

MurrayMinchin

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i just wanted to give the posters who constantly write that testing is "the" most important part of monochrome photography the chance to show their 'superior' results

i'm still waiting to be convinced

What you feel about what you're photographing, how you choose to photograph it, and how effectively your technique communicates those feelings are the most important things. I think you're being a tad extreme in thinking anyone puts curves over content.

You're asking the impossible of your computer screen anyway...there's no way it can ever equal a print.

Murray
 
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JBrunner

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i totally agree Keith

i just wanted to give the posters who constantly write that testing is "the" most important part of monochrome photography the chance to show their 'superior' results

i'm still waiting to be convinced

Ray,

As I tried to explain before, and Keith illustrates, a perfect negative is a personal concept. If you notice, he says "for me an example would be this one"

It simply means he has controlled the creation of that negative to print as he envisioned it, in the manner he prints. That's what most of us try to do. I'm fairly confident that at a first glance some would consider my negatives unprintable. My methods and process are simply irrelevant when applied to somebody else. What does exist are tried and true methods to gain information, that give insight into your personal process.

I'm certainly far from the most technical photographer here, but I don't wing it either. The process is simply a means to an end. By paying attention to the process, I have a better chance at achieving that end, nothing more.

"Superior" results are completely subjective.

Being able to consistently achieve what you envision isn't.
 

jd callow

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It is foolish not to know your materials. I don't shoot enough b/w to know how much I need to test -- if that makes sense. When I started shooting at night and when I started xprocessing the more I did the more I tested as I wanted more out of the film/scene. Shooting straight up c41 and even e6 is so bullet proof as to not require a great amount of testing when you are after straight up results. On the flip side pushing and (even more so) pulling can lead to really cool results with c41 and requires lots of testing to nail it.
 
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Ray Heath

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guys, i mostly agree with the people who have bothered to post images, i was attempting to illicit more info from the rest

Murray, in my experience of this site there is too much "curves over content"

when i ask the overly technical people to put up or shut up, they either shut up or make excuses based on some version of, 'screen presentation is never as good as a print'

Ray