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The Perfectly Exposed Negative

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David A. Goldfarb

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I think of this in a fairly practical way. It's not like the "perfect negative" has mystical properties other than printing easily onto the target paper.

This is a scan of a neg that was targeted for Azo on the basis of testing I had done previously and prints perfectly on Azo G2 with no manipulation--

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Sorry it's a neg scan, but when I tried scanning the print, I got too many surface artifacts on my scanner, so the best I could do was to scan the neg with the print in hand and match it as best I could on screen. You're welcome to stop by and look at the print.

When I was trying to determine how much contrast I needed for albumen printing, I tried this negative and it came out too flat, but I was able to figure out that I needed one zone more contrast for albumen than I needed for Azo G2, and I could use most of my existing development charts to determine the development time required for negs to be printed on albumen without too much additional testing.
 
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Having seen the spun aluminum lamp print in the flesh I know that Jason hit goodness one way or another. The print is remarkable in its presence and quality, so there is evidence that his method of extracting the most out of the range of a negative works for taking it to the limit.
Interesting examples, Jason. If I was more organized I probably would have done film speed testing. When I come back from photographing sheets I don't even have a system of knowing which sheet is which. I am too lazy for it, and too eager to burn film. Taking notes slows me down when I hold the camera. That's why I started developing film by inspection. I made sure that I got enough oomph in the shadows and would then proceed to develop the negatives until they looked right under the dark green safelight. Worked for a couple of years until I found myself with a severe backlog of sheets to process and finding no time to set my darkroom up to do the film developing. So I bought a Nikor tank and run it all through at a standard time... At least that's the plan. I just bought it and the initial tests were looking much less than promising... But that's a different story.

What I'm trying to say is that a part of my wishes I had more time and patience for a more scientific and precise approach. The other part of me wishes me to shut up and just go with the flow and enjoy my indulgences in photography, and if there is one thing I do not enjoy it's processing film. I love printing, and that's why I like processing film by inspection. If only I had the time to do it.

- Thomas

"Perfect" negatives exist only as a technical concept based on arbitrary and subjective values, or as perceived as perfect by someone for an individual printing style in a particular medium. "Perfect" really means you made a negative that prints the way you want it to, on what you want to print it on. "Perfect" in the case of negatives should be redefined to be "perfectly controlled"

Like I said, I don't have two identical examples of hits and misses, but here are images where an exposure error in relation to my speeds and processing would have made a clear difference. These negatives were shot on J&C 100 (IRRC) rated at 64 (my tested speed for this film with PMK)Two were processed normally (my tested normal), in PMK. The third was shot and processed N+1. (N+1 means I exposed and processed the negative to "expand" it. "Expansion" or "contraction" of negatives is one of the most basic and important reasons for using The Zone System, and getting a handle on this is largely what all the testing is about. Many people who poo poo this stuff have no idea that it is possible to control tonal relationships independently from overall contrast, except with color filters. Filtering is useful, but is limited, and the most control over the process is best arrived at with a full tool box.)

Although the development was "normal" the effective development on the first two images was N+1, meaning the highlights pulled up, but the low values remained near where they fell in the scene, because of reciprocity failure, as the exposures were long. This means the negatives were "expanded", an effect we test and plan for if we desire more separation of higher values from lower values than the scene possess. The Zone System is one of the methods that can be used to control the relationships of highlights and dark areas, not just arriving at an average exposure for a specific scene, but choosing an exposure and development to modify the relationships of the values found in that scene, beyond the natural contrast that exists within the composition with the conditions present at the time of exposure. Being able to move specific tonal values offers far more control of an image than merely adjusting the overall contrast with paper grades, or contrast filters, with the averaged contrast and tonal relationships present in a "box speed and developed" negative.

The manufacturer has to put something on the box, and recommend some kind of development, and the numbers and recommendations that are usually arrived at are those that offer the most forgiving performance for an average situation, not the best performance for a specific situation, because it is impossible for them to predict specific situations. (one can, of course, consider forgiving performance at the expense of other factors to be paramount). The "forgiving exposure and development" is the method that you, Ray, are using and espousing, and is why you can blow an exposure, probably by a stop or more, especially with regard to over exposure, and get away with it. You aren't using all the film's capability, so there is room built in for error. What you are giving up in return for that is control of the tones within the negative, and the maximum lattitude the emulsion can deliver. A box speed and developing regimen is literally a "one size fits all approach" There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but some of us desire negatives that fit better, with the maximum lattitude the film can deliver.

It's very much like a car. The average sedan gets ok mileage, handles ok, has a decent ride, and predictably average acceleration, because these characteristics are the compromises needed to mass produce and market the car. If that's what you want, that's what you drive. Some of us like to tinker and modify the sedan, push its perfomance to the maximum without regard to comfort or mileage, and drive it on a closed course at the absolute limit, with no margin for error. We do this because we want or need this kind of performance. Dismissing it out of hand, as you have tended to interject into exposure disscussions, is telling somebody who desires to race that they should drive a box stock sedan on race day, because the big brains in Detroit said that's how the car should be.

In the first two examples the lighter values received more exposure in the highlights because the film was faster where the light was more plentiful. This was, as mentioned, accomplished as a side effect of reciprocity failure, but it can also be accomplished by modifying exposure and developing times, and it is mostly done that way. The ability to control tonal relationships through exposure and developing is what we test for. Had I followed box speed recommendation, and processed for this average, none of these images would exist as they are.

If you combine the effect of the expansion of the upper zones as intended, and note where the highlights of these images fall, and also note that the highlights, and their relationship to other areas are extremely important elements of these images, its easy to imagine the havoc a one third stop error would have wreaked. There was no margin for error in these exposures, as the highlights in each are taken right to the limit. I might have gotten lucky with a WAG, instead being able to predict my results with a fair degree of accuracy, but not likely. Exposing at box speed using an incedent reading and processing according to the manufacture would have resulted in flat negatives with blown highlights, that couldn't in any case be coaxed to these kinds of light versus dark relationships without appearing very hard in contrast, or, for the last example I could have sat around on the beach at the Great Salt Lake, eating brine flies and cheetos for a few weeks, waiting for the conditions that would mimic the result of the expanded exposure and developing method, that would allow me to expose and print according to the manufacturer, to get the same result.

If you are only using a portion of a films capability, an exposure error can be easily forgiven, and go largely unnoticed and therefore be ignored. However, if you seek to gain every bit of lattitude you can get, and take an emuslion to its absolute limit, you have to do better than a WAG, or your gonna have allot of unprintable failures. A "shoot and develop for box speed" photographer probably would have stood in the conditions where I made the waterscape negative, and said with conviction that it couldn't be made to look like I made it look.

Here the three images that tell the same tale. The waterscape is an example of expansion by development.

On the prints there are far more details in both the shadows and the highlights than a computer monitor can display.
 

Chuck_P

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I like John P. Schaefer's take on the "the perfect negative":

"The ultimate goal of the Zone System is not to create a "perfect" negative from which a "perfect" print can be made without dodging, burning-in, and the like. The perfect Zone System negative simply embodies the right amount of negative density and contrast to allow the photographer to create an expressive print with a minimum amount of effort and darkroom gymnastics."
 

Chuck_P

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JBrunner;591607 Many people who poo poo this stuff ..........[/QUOTE said:
LOL, this slays me.

And nice communication on the subject all the way around.

Chuck
 

Christopher Walrath

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Ray, I gave you mine. I don't give a rat's holy hell what anyone else says about it. (just for emphasis you realize).
 

Michel Hardy-Vallée

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It's hard to have a better answer than the one Jason Brunner gave, because it shows very clearly that exposure is "perfect" only when light, subject, intention, negative contrast, tonal placement, and paper grade all come together, and serve each other.

In 35mm, I do not attempt to achieve such precision work, so I think the best I've done with consciously matching light, contrast, and subject, are in these portraits:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I had one hour to take pictures of my friend and his sister for their mom's birthday. It was already 6PM (in summer, though), and the sky was cloudy, after rain. So I sat them in a café by the window to make sure I would have enough light and contrast. I rate tri-x at 250 in XTOL 1+1 to get good shadow detail, and develop 7' to keep a thin negative (low grain) without blown highlight. Here, I could have developed a bit more to augment contrast, but I don't think it's a good idea in 35mm. It's a compromise at best, but I usually work in light conditions that fit that kind of processing. In this case, my appreciation of the light was decent. I have all tones from black to white at the right place.

I based my exposure on skin tones, because that's what I wanted to reproduce. Camera TTL meter +1 stop gave me f/2 1/60. Because the light is very soft, it's a mostly midtones picture. I learned later that XTOL is a good developer for midtones, so I had luck here.

I printed on Kentmere G3, toned in selenium. Overall, it's not precision work, but I think I put the right principles in the right place. Probably because failure was not an option!
 

Bruce Osgood

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yep, succint, to the point and really moves the discussion forward

Ok. The negative is an interim step to a print. In and of itself it is nothing. It is a negative, not a positive. There is no such thing as a perfect film negative. All negatives can be used to produce a perfect print. Trying to make a perfect negative is foolish. Trying to make the best negative is a great ambition and deserves testing of materials etc. We judge our negatives by what they produce as positives.

Try trolling "The Perfect Print".
 

Paul Verizzo

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It's great, Ray.

First, for guessing on ISO, development, and exposure, an amazing success.

I see highlight detail on the fence post.

If this was a print made with current equipment and knowledge, yes, as Joe says, it is terrible. But it wasn't. The tonality fits the equipment perfectly. It has a genuine "old time look" that I appreciate. IMHO, Joe has lost sight of how a photo impacts us subjectively and emotionally is all that really matters. Densities, contrast, etc. are all just ways of explaining and comparison. They should never be the canon. (Yes, small "c.") The bottom line is how does the image grab you? Yours grabbed me.

I would imagine Matthew Brady would have been extremely pleased.
 

smieglitz

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IMHO, Joe has lost sight of how a photo impacts us subjectively and emotionally is all that really matters.

Paul,

This thread started as a spinoff of a technical discussion and that is what I addressed in my response.

If anything, your attraction to the image in question and your projection of what I feel (or don't) is subjective as well.

FWIW, the comments I made come from someone who also uses old and handmade equipment, unpredictable emulsions, selective focus, major guessing at ISO (as in ISO 0.5), and in-camera vignetting, etc.

I'm glad you had some emotional response to the image Ray posted. Realize however, that is a matter of personal taste.

If you peruse the various APUG galleries you will notice that I frequently comment positively on the emotional impact various photographs have upon me. Ray's photograph did not have such an effect and so I limited my response in line with his request for technical feedback.

Joe
 

Vaughn

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When I make a platinum/palladium print with no contrast agent, and the print ends up ugly with too much contrast, I say,
"Wow! This is a perfect negative for carbon printing!" And there is no way to get a decent print on silver gelatin paper with it!

When I was silver printing, I tended to favor 4x5 negs that were slightly on the thin side that would print well on Grade 3 Portriga Rapid III. That was perfect form me...probably not for someone else. I would expose the 16x20 paper a little light, then spend about 10 to 15 minutes burning in the image. It was an enjoyable way to work.

Vaughn
 
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fhovie

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I guess a lot of this is personal taste - I went through my "catch all zones" phase and found my work to be flat. So I changed film to one that is snappier and went to an hour of stand processing and now I generally get 5 stops of scene brightness to fit in the density range to give me a full spread of black to white on grade 2 paper. This is not a one size fits all solution but it is most things to most scenes and I keep a plan B in my hip pocket. All this is to say that expansion is the norm for me and it gives me the look I want. There are a zillion different tastes and a zillion ways of accomplishing the same thing - I try to stay with answers that are robust enough to accommodate a stop or so error in any situation and still print well.
Untitled-1.jpg
 
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keithwms

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Ray, I don't think "perfectly exposed negative" is the right way to go at this! What an annoying concept! :wink:

A photograph is successful or it is not. That's all. I have negs that are not perfectly exposed but which nevertheless are far more dear to me than perfectly executed exposures.

Now, kindly do not ask me to post my imperfectly exposed negs! I don't like it when I have to work hard to get what I want out of a neg! Like anybody else, I do my level best to nail my exposure as best I can. But first and foremost I am concerned with feeling that a shot is worth taking.

"Perfection" is just one more thing after another. "Worth" is something real and achievable by mere mortals.

If I really must sport a neg that I consider to be "perfect," well I would say that is a neg that [contact] printed very easily with no contrast adjustments etc. The tones were precisely where I wanted them, straight out of the tray. For me, an example would be this one, which is a 5x7 contact print from fp4+.

rrt001.jpg
 
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Ray Heath

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i totally agree Keith

i just wanted to give the posters who constantly write that testing is "the" most important part of monochrome photography the chance to show their 'superior' results

i'm still waiting to be convinced
 

MurrayMinchin

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i just wanted to give the posters who constantly write that testing is "the" most important part of monochrome photography the chance to show their 'superior' results

i'm still waiting to be convinced

What you feel about what you're photographing, how you choose to photograph it, and how effectively your technique communicates those feelings are the most important things. I think you're being a tad extreme in thinking anyone puts curves over content.

You're asking the impossible of your computer screen anyway...there's no way it can ever equal a print.

Murray
 
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JBrunner

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i totally agree Keith

i just wanted to give the posters who constantly write that testing is "the" most important part of monochrome photography the chance to show their 'superior' results

i'm still waiting to be convinced

Ray,

As I tried to explain before, and Keith illustrates, a perfect negative is a personal concept. If you notice, he says "for me an example would be this one"

It simply means he has controlled the creation of that negative to print as he envisioned it, in the manner he prints. That's what most of us try to do. I'm fairly confident that at a first glance some would consider my negatives unprintable. My methods and process are simply irrelevant when applied to somebody else. What does exist are tried and true methods to gain information, that give insight into your personal process.

I'm certainly far from the most technical photographer here, but I don't wing it either. The process is simply a means to an end. By paying attention to the process, I have a better chance at achieving that end, nothing more.

"Superior" results are completely subjective.

Being able to consistently achieve what you envision isn't.
 

jd callow

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It is foolish not to know your materials. I don't shoot enough b/w to know how much I need to test -- if that makes sense. When I started shooting at night and when I started xprocessing the more I did the more I tested as I wanted more out of the film/scene. Shooting straight up c41 and even e6 is so bullet proof as to not require a great amount of testing when you are after straight up results. On the flip side pushing and (even more so) pulling can lead to really cool results with c41 and requires lots of testing to nail it.
 
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Ray Heath

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guys, i mostly agree with the people who have bothered to post images, i was attempting to illicit more info from the rest

Murray, in my experience of this site there is too much "curves over content"

when i ask the overly technical people to put up or shut up, they either shut up or make excuses based on some version of, 'screen presentation is never as good as a print'

Ray
 
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