The New Leitz - Wetzlar Leica M6 (and the dreaded film scratching issue)

[MattKing]

The thing is there is nothing ‘new’ here. This M6 is just the MP with a different paint job, film advance lever and rewind knob. Everything under the hood has been the same since 2002.

With their volumes, they clearly buy the constituent parts from fabricators, one small batch at a time.

 

[awty]

Maybe use it for a down payment on a digital, problem solved.

 

[Radost]

The thing is there is nothing ‘new’ here. This M6 is just the MP with a different paint job, film advance lever and rewind knob. Everything under the hood has been the same since 2002.

I heard a few people say that. Is this confirmed?

 

[Huss]

I heard a few people say that. Is this confirmed?

Functionally my M6 was identical to my MP. Everything looks and acts the same. The only difference is the film winder, and film rewind. And the ISO dial - which is broken on mine!!! It cannot be set at 400 for example, only above or below!
When I compared both, the VF is identical. The meter is identical. Everything you can see in the camera is identical.

When Leica was actually asked - what are the new bits? No answer. Now think about it logically. The MP is a current production item. The M6 works exactly the same way. Why would it make any sense for them to have different bits inside the camera? If there were changes, then the MP would be changed too. From a manufacturing and economic view point, the more pieces that are interchangeable across the line, the better it is for efficiency and the company's bottom line.

Again, when asked what is the difference, Leica only points to the original M6. Not the MP. And the new M6 is different from the original one, as it has the meter from the MP, brass top and bottom plates (instead of zinc), it has the VF and RF mechanism from the MP which is much better than the original M6 one.
They are intentionally vague and ambiguous, as they wanted to hype it up. And not have people think 'oh, it's just the MP but w a red dot now'. It's all about marketing.

The ISO dial on my new M6 - trying to set it to 400:

 

[Sirius Glass]

Functionally my M6 was identical to my MP. Everything looks and acts the same. The only difference is the film winder, and film rewind. And the ISO dial - which is broken on mine!!! It cannot be set at 400 for example, only above or below!
When I compared both, the VF is identical. The meter is identical. Everything you can see in the camera is identical.

When Leica was actually asked - what are the new bits? No answer. Now think about it logically. The MP is a current production item. The M6 works exactly the same way. Why would it make any sense for them to have different bits inside the camera? If there were changes, then the MP would be changed too. From a manufacturing and economic view point, the more pieces that are interchangeable across the line, the better it is for efficiency and the company's bottom line.

Again, when asked what is the difference, Leica only points to the original M6. Not the MP. And the new M6 is different from the original one, as it has the meter from the MP, brass top and bottom plates (instead of zinc), it has the VF and RF mechanism from the MP which is much better than the original M6 one.
They are intentionally vague and ambiguous, as they wanted to hype it up. And not have people think 'oh, it's just the MP but w a red dot now'. It's all about marketing.

The ISO dial on my new M6 - trying to set it to 400:

Apparently Quality Control was on vacation when your camera was built. Not something Leitz should be proud of. Maybe they din know about the problem, but they should have since Din 27 is ISO 400.

 

[logan2z]

Functionally my M6 was identical to my MP. Everything looks and acts the same. The only difference is the film winder, and film rewind. And the ISO dial - which is broken on mine!!! It cannot be set at 400 for example, only above or below!
When I compared both, the VF is identical. The meter is identical. Everything you can see in the camera is identical.

When Leica was actually asked - what are the new bits? No answer. Now think about it logically. The MP is a current production item. The M6 works exactly the same way. Why would it make any sense for them to have different bits inside the camera? If there were changes, then the MP would be changed too. From a manufacturing and economic view point, the more pieces that are interchangeable across the line, the better it is for efficiency and the company's bottom line.

Again, when asked what is the difference, Leica only points to the original M6. Not the MP. And the new M6 is different from the original one, as it has the meter from the MP, brass top and bottom plates (instead of zinc), it has the VF and RF mechanism from the MP which is much better than the original M6 one.
They are intentionally vague and ambiguous, as they wanted to hype it up. And not have people think 'oh, it's just the MP but w a red dot now'. It's all about marketing.

The ISO dial on my new M6 - trying to set it to 400:

That's the little-hyped AI-ISO feature of the new M6. It knows the Tri-X you have loaded in the camera isn't really a 400 speed film so it won't let you set the dial there

 

[Huss]

But what happens if I try to load Catlabs 320?

 

[logan2z]

But what happens if I try to load Catlabs 320?

I don't have a ChatGPT account or I'd ask it.

 

[MattKing]

But what happens if I try to load Catlabs 320?

As long as you don't try to promote it as an ISO 320 film, things should be fine
I totally understand how frustrating these sort of things can be.
My perspective though is influenced by having spent a few years in retail back in the 1970s and 1980s, when initial product quality issues were not rare, even if they were not in the majority.
I'm afraid the world has adopted the approach of the software industry - design it, debug it, then get it out there where the users will find any problems that you couldn't find earlier.
Combine that with having to sub-contract huge parts of the manufacturing to suppliers who only make a small number of items is a recipe for this sort of problem.
That and the fact that no one has the capital to permit a year of real world testing before releasing a product to the market.

 

[Steven Lee]

I'm afraid the world has adopted the approach of the software industry - design it, debug it, then get it out there where the users will find any problems that you couldn't find earlier. Combine that with having to sub-contract huge parts of the manufacturing to suppliers who only make a small number of items is a recipe for this sort of problem.
That and the fact that no one has the capital to permit a year of real world testing before releasing a product to the market.

I have not seen anything photography-related, but the defect rates have been declining and customer satisfaction of manufactured goods has been on the rise in general. This only makes sense as manufacturing has gotten more automated.

Also, sub-contracting not only lowers costs, but increases overall quality because it takes advantage of economies of scale. Specialization comes with higher volumes and better QC. SpaceX is far more aggressive at sub-contracting than government space programs. Their outcomes are great and the cost is lower.

What we are dealing with, I suspect, is unevenly distributed information. With nearly 100% of population online (smartphones lifted even the dumbest from the bottom), you get to see nearly every defect complained about publicly. The % of unlucky users who share their experience online is higher than % of happy users who do so. Regarding subcontracting, I think the opposite is happening here. There aren't any high-volume manufacturers of pressure plates left. I bet Leica had to improvise here and there.

 

[mshchem]

It's a glitch.

 

[Sirius Glass]

It's a glitch.

A metric glitch or US Standard glitch?

 

[mshchem]

A metric glitch or US Standard glitch?

Remember the US Mars probe that smashed into the planet because there was a screw up converting English to metric. Oh brother.

 

[MattKing]

Also, sub-contracting not only lowers costs, but increases overall quality because it takes advantage of economies of scale. Specialization comes with higher volumes and better QC.

This may very well be true for something like automobile manufacturing, where volumes are high.
But for special purpose, low volume manufacturing, not so much.

The % of unlucky users who share their experience online is higher than % of happy users who do so.

Except that we have heard that there is a faulty batch of these - which it appears Leica was unable to detect before the product reached customers.

 

[MattKing]

Remember the US Mars probe that smashed into the planet because there was a screw up converting English to metric. Oh brother.

The Gimli Glider: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

 

[Steven Lee]

Except that we have heard that there is a faulty batch of these - which it appears Leica was unable to detect before the product reached customers.

My point was that the "batch" could have been the size of 10 and half of them showed up on www.l-camera-forum.com, and 2 of those 5 published their interaction with Leica customer support for all to see. In this extremely transparent environment companies disclose everything. No need to moan about good ole days and declining manufacturing. Always blame the Internet

 

[mshchem]

The Gimli Glider: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

I remember this well. Amazing.

 

[Chrismat]

The Gimli Glider: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

I was just thinking about that.

 

[mshchem]

My point was that the "batch" could have been the size of 10 and half of them showed up on www.l-camera-forum.com, and 2 of those 5 published their interaction with Leica customer support for all to see. In this extremely transparent environment companies disclose everything. No need to moan about good ole days and declining manufacturing. Always blame the Internet

I purchased a MP about the same time that Huss received his M6. I don't know if it was just luck, but my camera is OK. You have an excellent point. If you change the sampling you will (usually) change the results.

In this case it's pretty dramatic.

It's like the Delta flight the other day that departed Scotland for New York. Flames started pouring out of one of the two engines. You can be sure that, people looked pretty carefully at the remaining engine.

This is the first time I've ever checked a brand new camera to see if it was scraping film.

 

[Huss]

My point was that the "batch" could have been the size of 10 and half of them showed up on www.l-camera-forum.com, and 2 of those 5 published their interaction with Leica customer support for all to see. In this extremely transparent environment companies disclose everything. No need to moan about good ole days and declining manufacturing. Always blame the Internet

When Leica told me it was a bad batch of pressure plates, and they build cameras by batches, this isn't a case of a squeaky wheel. But a squealing fleet of cars.

And you really think a 'batch' could be 10? Really? A company like Leica would order such a small number of pressure plates at a time for a standard production item? Enjoy that thought.

FYI the current defect count on l-camera is 12, and that didn't even include the guy from Austria who got a refund after his first M6 scratched, and the shop saw that the second one they exchanged it with also scratched. I gave up counting at that point because Leica told me it was a bad batch.

 

[Steven Lee]

It's like the Delta flight the other day that departed Scotland for New York. Flames started pouring out of one of the two engines. You can be sure that, people looked pretty carefully at the remaining engine.

True story: one time I was sitting in a window isle during boarding and noticed oil leaking out of the engine before the takeoff. I asked the flight attendant if that was normal. She disappeared to go and check with the pilots and a few minutes later they announced that the plane needs service and we'll have to wait for another. To this day I'm thinking whether that was a coincidence (the flight attendant did not return to me to confirm) and what could have happened...

 

[mshchem]

True story: one time I was sitting in a window isle during boarding and noticed oil leaking out of the engine before the takeoff. I asked the flight attendant if that was normal. She disappeared to go and check with the pilots and a few minutes later they announced that the plane needs service and we'll have to wait for another. To this day I'm thinking whether that was a coincidence (the flight attendant did not return to me to confirm) and what could have happened...

Good call. I bet that attendant checks now when they get on board too.

 

[Huss]

True story: one time I was sitting in a window isle during boarding and noticed oil leaking out of the engine before the takeoff. I asked the flight attendant if that was normal. She disappeared to go and check with the pilots and a few minutes later they announced that the plane needs service and we'll have to wait for another. To this day I'm thinking whether that was a coincidence (the flight attendant did not return to me to confirm) and what could have happened...

I believe it!

Scary how things could have turned out.

 

[snusmumriken]

The thing is there is nothing ‘new’ here. This M6 is just the MP with a different paint job, film advance lever and rewind knob. Everything under the hood has been the same since 2002.

Unexpected manufacturing issues can arise at any time. Look at the number of recalls that car manufacturers make, even with long-established models. It seems unfair to accuse Leica of indifference - I’ll bet they are sweating buckets over this if it affects all new M6s.

OTOH, I have to add that the pressure plate on my ‘original’ M6 - though functional - is a plain and dull affair compared with the thoughtfully designed and highly polished plate on my Nikon FE, which preceded it.

 

[NB23]

I’ve shot over 100 rolls so far with my new M6. Many differences vs the MP.

Darker vf, which I like.

Much firmer shutter button
Angled rewind ala M4. Like it or not, it’s different than the MP/M123.

No scratches. And if it did, I’d be stupid not being able to locate the problem and correct it. Doesn’t take a high iQ to do so, really. Wtf is this drama all about anyway?

Very firm winding action.

Different design of meter arrows in the vf versus my MPs

If the M6 doesn’t meter with the MP door it will mean it has a new metering system. I’m too lazy to find out because I’m STILL NOT over the stupid discussions back in 2003 about how the MP was just a M6 in disguise. Turns out the M6 is a MP in disguise now? LOL WTF.

Yeah, as a matter of fact, all the posters of back then have quickly vanished since then. I’m guessing they changed hobbies to collecting rolexes or just dropped out when Leica tripled their prices overnight. I still remember that one dude not being able to fathom why a noctilux f1.0 was way too expensive at 1800$. Oh, and you should have read his expert views on anything Leica. Oh, double-oh! You should have seen all the parroting following him. Guess today he’s still in his Toyota Tercel wanking off Other internet matters.

The problem has always been the newbs shooting 2 rolls of film and thinking they should be viewed as Leica legendary photogs or something and believing their Dollar is worth 5 Dollars.

If your New M6 is not to your taste, just return it and go back to Nikon Fe.
Other will buy a second one on top. And then a third. That is the only way. No time for anything else.