The issue with 'freshly CLAd' cameras on the popular auction site

[Helge]

There seems to be some confusion over whether CLAs are good at all, or worth mentioning in an add, in this thread.
I find that pretty confusing in itself; why such a simple and pretty obvious concept is up for discussion.
Is it some kind social phenomenon? Like humble bragging, virtue signaling or call out culture?

As I see it, it’s very simple:
CLA with papers and documentation = good.
Claimed CLA with no or falsified documentation = bad.

Then it’s up to the buyer to review the documentation, and do the research on whether it’s a reputable repair person, and whether the documentation looks legit.

No one said it would be simple. ;-)

 

[AnselMortensen]

Well said, Helge.

 

[David Reynolds]

If a seller claims recent service,CLA, etc I’ll ask for evidence, like a receipt. If none is provided then I assume it was a destroy-it-yourself attempt and move on. I really appreciate sellers that do have gear serviced by a competent professional prior to selling it and who provide evidence.

I agree with Brad. If they cannot supply a copy of the receipt from a competent repair person and/or shop; move on. For most of my sales I have a CLA done before the sale so I am offering the best quality piece with confidence and at the best price for the item.

 

[wyofilm]

There seems to be some confusion over whether CLAs are good at all, or worth mentioning in an add, in this thread.
I find that pretty confusing in itself; why such a simple and pretty obvious concept is up for discussion.
Is it some kind social phenomenon? Like humble bragging, virtue signaling or call out culture?

As I see it, it’s very simple:
CLA with papers and documentation = good.
Claimed CLA with no or falsified documentation = bad.

Then it’s up to the buyer to review the documentation, and do the research on whether it’s a reputable repair person, and whether the documentation looks legit.

No one said it would be simple. ;-)

Or if the CLA is done by the seller, who himself has a good reputation. I agree a seller just saying "CLA" doesn't mean much. On the other hand, I'm happy if a large number of people never use ebay, because that means less competition for me!

 

[grat]

Honestly, I'm more interested in an accurate description-- does the shutter work, what condition is the glass in, are there any known problems? Whether it's original, CLA'd by a professional, maintained by an amateur, or the recipient of faerie dust, isn't as much of an issue as "how much will it take to make this item work?".

I bought two Yashica 12's, at wildly different prices-- one was supposed to be fully working (and wasn't), and one was known to have multiple issues (and did). The cost-to-repair was a factor in what I was willing to pay.

As the "fully working" unit had been frankenized (close inspection revealed some parts from other models of Yashicas), I wasn't that sad to see it go, and I'm quite happy with my replacement-- even though ultimately, I spent about $70 more on it.

 

[Helge]

Or if the CLA is done by the seller, who himself has a good reputation. I agree a seller just saying "CLA" doesn't mean much. On the other hand, I'm happy if a large number of people never use ebay, because that means less competition for me!

Trust in someone’s ability to do a repair or CLA is something that takes a lot of time and resources to build up.
I wouldn’t advice just anyone to sell a rare or expensive camera they have tinkered with themselves, (let alone tinker in the first place. Cameras are a lot more complex and easy to get wrong without realizing it than you’d think).

BUT if you have to. Then do the work, test it as throughly as though you were going to use it yourself, and then be completely honest about it when selling, and document what work was done.
Alternatively, shut up about it, not using it to inflate the price. Sell the camera with the possibility of you getting it back, when the buyer discovers signs of a clumsy repair.

If he discovers it.
Of course the main trouble with “home CLA” is the possibility that the market is going to be flooded with a lot of nice looking but decrepit zombie cameras and lenses.
Equipment that is going to make future buyers cynical and overly hesitant.

 

[Helge]

Or if the CLA is done by the seller, who himself has a good reputation. I agree a seller just saying "CLA" doesn't mean much. On the other hand, I'm happy if a large number of people never use ebay, because that means less competition for me!

You are thinking of guys like Certo and John Titterington. Those are of course “just” to be considered reputable technicians, who happen to also be selling the camera.
Nothing fundamentally different there.

 

[takilmaboxer]

I have purchased several folders from Certo6 and have been very happy. They all work fine and the Agfas even have new bellows.
I have also purchased "estate find" folders for dirt cheap and cleaned the shutters with naptha. They work well too but I would not sell them as CLA'd. I have sold a couple of them in the $20 range as "as-is" cameras. The buyers were all happy and I never mentioned any cleaning or adjustment, that would be dishonest. One college kid was so happy she went on to buy one from Certo6.
But....be veeeery careful on the Bay, it can be a snakepit!

 

[albireo]

Honestly, I'm more interested in an accurate description-- does the shutter work, what condition is the glass in, are there any known problems? Whether it's original, CLA'd by a professional, maintained by an amateur, or the recipient of faerie dust, isn't as much of an issue as "how much will it take to make this item work?".

I would suggest the above will largely depend on the camera's complexity. I was using Rolleiflex TLRs as an example in my opening post. I would never, ever knowingly purchase one of these precision instruments if tampered by an amateur. I would, however possibly consider the purchase of - say - a simple (not a top of the range model) folding camera if the person doing the CLA, though not a pro, has a excellent record of doing it well. I have taken care of a couple of Agfa Isolettes for own use myself, and it's relatively easy to replace the bellows for these as well as do an OK (certainly not 'pro-grade') focus collimation. Given my models mount either triplets or Tessar-design lenses, I'm unlikely to see minor focusing errors cause by a collimation done without professional-grade tools and expertise.

 

[grat]

Assessing whether the last person to work on it is a klutz or a gifted genius is difficult to do through the bay of fleas. About the best you can do is look for obvious signs of neglect or abuse.

The one good thing about eBay as a buyer these days is if the seller says it works, and I say it doesn't, I'm likely to get my money back.

Even with "so and so did a CLA"-- unless they've done work for me personally, the chances are, I can find stories of "this shop does amazing work!" and "I will never, ever send hardware to this idiot again"... about the same people. I've heard horror stories about at least two reputable people that have been brought up in this thread.

It sounds mild, but the highest compliment I pay a seller is usually "Item is exactly as described".

 

[removedacct2]

.../...recently decided to consider the purchase of a new medium format camera ...7...
-'freshly CLAd'
-'just out of the workshop'
-'professionally overhauled'
And so on. However, having contacted a few of these sellers to investigate the details of the CLA (what was done, who did it, what's the warranty, is there written proof, etc) the answer is, invariably, either silence or some variation of 'actually I did it'.

when searching for MF camera bodies on ebay i haven't seen often mention of service. But everytime it was mentioned it was said to have been done at a technician and the one time it was a body I bought the seller told me who and had the receipt, and coincidence, it happened the repairman was one I know in person, he has a 2nd hand shop I have visited routinely.

MF cameras were produced in BRD, DDR, Sweden, USSR and Japan mostly. The Rollei SL66 and the Rolleiflex costs an arm and a leg, and chances it was been serviced are quite plausible. There are still enough former Franke u. Heidecke technicians in Germany who can do it, it's no hassle for a seller living in Germany and the added cost won't be much relative to the sale price.
For the Hasselblad 500 no idea, but the body is quite dumb, the finesse is in the shutter ie. Compur, otherwise the gearing in the backs.
DDR and USSR are the simple ones, Kiev-6s/60 and Pentacon and the complex one, the Salyut/Kiev-8(8). If these have been serviced by a technician it will show in the price or it will be a guy who bought a bunch in Kiev, got them checked by an ex-Arsenal guy and resells online.
Japanese sellers in my experience are overcautious and reliable. If they mention service they will have the receipt. Last year I wanted a Bronica S2 body just for tinkering and learning, so if my main body has a problem I could maybe fix things myself, so I bought a S2a body sold "as-is" "for parts". What I received was in fact fully functional, with minor problems, I replaced the mirror and focusing screen foams, did a cleansing along the way, lubricated the speed selector which was very heavy, ordered the missing dark slide, fixed a light leak on the back. So small trivialities, and I ended with a very nice body which I keep as backup. Will have to buy another body, I hope actually broken this time, otherwise I'll have a 3rd fully functional Bronica...

I'm just wondering if there is some sort of 'self-repair' thing going on where bored, Covid-recluse film camera owners give it a go at 'fixing' a camera, having perhaps learnt from a couple of youtube videos, before attempting to dump the result on the auction sites?

if focal plane shutter systems, you don't fix a Rollei SL66, a Hasselblad 2000/201, a Hasselblad 1000f or Salyut by watching online videos. You need a body to practice on.

Look I have this Salyut on my to-do list, I have also the official booklet with extensive diagrams and descriptions of procedures, (for the Kiev-80 ie. Salyut-S variant, basically the same), a booklet with repair Q&A also with good technical drawings, by a german engineer who collaborated with Arsenal on this in the 90's, and there's the short and nice explanations of Steve Ash floating on the net. I could send the whole to you. You have everything, put it back together, functional and with correct shutter times and come back tell us about it

 

[Sirius Glass]

For the Hasselblad 500 no idea, but the body is quite dumb, the finesse is in the shutter ie. Compur, otherwise the gearing in the backs.

Good Hasselblad service is easy to find. Parts for C lenses can be problematical but I personally have not had a problem.

 

[Alex Varas]

Like others have mentioned, I also sell recently CLA’d cameras on eBay and I’d like to add a few comments:

1) sometimes I buy something looking to use it, have it firstly CLA’d then after a few months I actually don’t enjoy it as I don’t adapt to the ergonomics (e.g. sold recently a Rolleicord Vb due to this) or too modern rendering or something and sell it;
2) other times I buy, like recently, a Rolleiflex 3.5B and like it a lot but prefer to almost immediately upgrade to a 3.5F and so there goes a freshly CLA’d 3.5B for sale;
3) on some instances if I happen to find locally a neglected but good model and serviceable camera, at a nice price that can still accommodate a reasonable CLA cost (see below) I might buy it thinking to sell it with some sort of margin but mainly after enjoying a test drive (I love using/testing different cameras) while also supporting the local repair service and to offset often big losses with point nr 1 above
4) The cost of living is not the same across countries, you can have a full CLA for way less than what is described here, by a reputable shop/technician in a significant part of the world.

I do the same, even if there is one part that is not 100% working as it should I have mentioned.
My first selling was a disaster, a Contax II bought from a student in States, he claimed the camera was not working fine and my guess he did something wrong, final result was a refund without return. I moved on. Rest of selling have been fine, happy clients with cameras ready to go.
Maybe I’m the double exception that I sell from Russia and I do serious services of my cameras.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Define "easy". Every time this comes up here, we have David Odess and Mike at Samy's who is not even listed on their site. I live in Bay Area (nearly 8M people, easily top 5 metro in the US) and I as far as I know we do not have a single full-service Hasselblad shop.

Heck, drive do to Los Angeles. That takes about five hours. We will visit Mike who will adjust it on the spot or you will have to leave it to be shipped back. We have some drinks and the next day drive home. A good time for all.

 

[BrianShaw]

Define "easy". Every time this comes up here, we have David Odess and Mike at Samy's who is not even listed on their site. I live in Bay Area (nearly 8M people, easily top 5 metro in the US) and I as far as I know we do not have a single full-service Hasselblad shop.

Don’t forget Steve’s Camera Repair. Hasselblad repair probably before David or Samy graduated from nickers to trousers. LA also... and right near the airport. Maybe you can couch-surf at SeriousGass’ while here!

 

[Sirius Glass]

Don’t forget Steve’s Camera Repair. Hasselblad repair probably before David or Samys graduated from nickers to trousers. LA also... and right near the airport. Maybe you can couch-surf at Sirius Glass while here!

I can vouch for their work. BrianShaw pointed me to them.

 

[darinwc]

Having tinkered on many cameras.. A "clean and lube" is the easy part. 9/10 times it is just the slow speed escapement that just needs to be cleaned and everything just works.

It is the "adjust" that is difficult without specialized equipment. Without that, even the most experienced technician is worthless. And this is what you are really paying for. The last of the good repair shops have all the original tools and test equipment to put a camera back into factory specs or better. And they will warranty their work for a period of time.

Some of these ebay merchants may be ex technicians, you never know.
These ebay "clas" are probably ok , but I would not pay a premium for them unless they warranty for 6 months. Buying anything used is a gamble.

 

[Ernst-Jan]

-'freshly CLAd'
-'just out of the workshop'
-'professionally overhauled'

Well if that is true, they have most likely an invoice of the CLA
I have my Mamiya's serviced by some guys with a very good reputation (retired people, that worked at the Mamiya repair/service department) and I have evidence of this. Not that I am going to sell them, but it is known that if this guys took care of the camera it is ready for many more years of use.

 

[mooseontheloose]

This thread reminds me of a video I saw on YouTube recently from Japan Camera Hunter - he went behind the scenes at Kanto Camera in Tokyo and they definitely have the tools to make sure your camera is up to spec:

 

[Oldwino]

I just received a "mint", "no fog" lens from Japan from one of the newer dealers there. It was very hazy, so therefore not mint. I really don't know how they thought they would get away with that. Maybe it was haze free when they listed it, and it developed it during transit? (joke)
Anyway, back it went.
Terms like "mint" or "nearly mint" or anything with "++++" attached to it are suspect now. I'll stick to the few old-timers that I have bought from before - sometimes the price is a little higher, but they've never mis-represented the condition.

 

[Kodachromeguy]

Anyway, back it went.

I'm sorry to hear of your experience. The big issue is the waste of your time and effort, not the least of which is waiting at the post office to ship the item back. And then you need to spend time looking for another version of the lens.

Another problem I have with many of the Japanese listings is the space wasted in the title for the bold [++++ TOTAL MINT]. On a tablet, I can't skim the listings and have to open the actual listing to see what it is they are selling. That said, many US sellers of camera equipment are a lot sloppier or are selling merchandise about which they know nothing. And the quality of the photography from US sellers is usually much worse then the quality from Japanese sellers. US sellers often do really dumb things, like show 4 pictures of a crappy old camera case, as if anyone would care compared to the camera that is the real auction item.

 

[Sirius Glass]

A photo of CLA stamp on the camera with the date would be nice. I have some cameras with them.

 

[Wayne]

I just received a "mint", "no fog" lens from Japan from one of the newer dealers there. It was very hazy, so therefore not mint. I really don't know how they thought they would get away with that. Maybe it was haze free when they listed it, and it developed it during transit? (joke)
Anyway, back it went.
Terms like "mint" or "nearly mint" or anything with "++++" attached to it are suspect now. I'll stick to the few old-timers that I have bought from before - sometimes the price is a little higher, but they've never mis-represented the condition.

yep. That's pretty much the standard now at least on MF folders that i've been looking at. I decided on my high price and looked for weeks and found nothing I thought worth taking a risk on. When one finally came up that looked like the real deal and cost almost 20% over my high price (but included free returns), I jumped on it.

Gotta wait another week to find out if its a keeper or not.

 

[Ernst-Jan]

I preferably pick up my cameras. I did this with the Mamiyas, then you see what you buy. I didn't do it with my 35mm SLR's but they were all €30 or less.

 

[Huss]

Even a store is somewhat suspect. I bought a Nikon F2AS from a well know web dealer that ha a complete CLA only to fail within days. The store did offer a 6 month warranty so I got my money back. Something unlikely to happen with a private seller.

I visited a camera store in San Fran in Cow Hollow.. they had two pristine Rollei 35 SEs. Said both just had a CLA. I checked them over, both had shutters that acted as if on B at 1/15 and under. They acted surprised..
(I've seen this issue on every freakin Rollei 35 that I have checked out. Done looking for one because prices now are sky high so not worth it to me to pay that and then have to get it repaired)