the great schism of photography

[removed account4]

There is something that I am not much fond of. That is people who work out of control, not knowing what they are going to get, and then claim the results as their art. But that is just me I guess.

sometimes it SEEMS the practitioner is out of control but s/he is every bit in control

 

[dpurdy]

sometimes it SEEMS the practitioner is out of control but s/he is every bit in control

In your case I know that is true..

 

[blansky]

There is something that I am not much fond of. That is people who work out of control, not knowing what they are going to get, and then claim the results as their art. But that is just me I guess.

I don't have a problem with that. It's merely experimentation. Which is how we grow. The trick is, once we get that result you mention, can we duplicate it for a style for a while, or was it just a one off happy accident.

 

[railwayman3]

In my early interest in photography I used to read any relevent book I could from the local public library. I well remember one book (though I can't recall the title) on darkroom technique where the author was TOTALLY obsessed with detail, times, temperatures but, above all, dust and cleanliness.....he seemed to recommend that you must spend a day cleaning every nook and cranny of the room, then make sure your sinks, vessels and working surfaces were SURGICALLY clean before you could start a printing session. And this was a book for amateur enthusiasts, not laboratory scientists ! I honestly think that, these days, he would be diagnosed with some kind of OCD disorder (and I don't use that term lightly, I know it's a real affliction for anyone genuinely affected).

My point is that, while we obviously try to produce the best possible results for our own satisfaction, we ought not to lose track of why we practice this, or any other, hobby. Sometimes "good enough" is sufficient to meet a particular purpose....and far better than being a total perfectionist who never finishes anything.

 

[removed account4]

hi michael

whlle i like to think it is/was entropy,... after using the camera /film/paper developer enough
as a "system" now its like anything else ... and not very entropic at all

 

[MattKing]

Mediocrity is to me unacceptable. No matter your present place on the learning curve and evolution as a photographer you should be trying for excellence. As good as you can be. You may still suck or you may be great but in both cases you should be "trying" to get better.

blansky:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are really saying that accepting mediocrity is wrong, when better results are within your reach. With that I will agree.

What I was trying to say in my earlier posts is that there can be real quality in mid-range work, and that the appreciation and pursuit of quality matters.

What I object to is people rejecting high quality work as being somehow not worthy, because there are examples available from others that are more exceptional.

Strive for the very best, but don't reject that which is merely valuable.

 

[blansky]

blansky:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are really saying that accepting mediocrity is wrong, when better results are within your reach. With that I will agree.

What I was trying to say in my earlier posts is that there can be real quality in mid-range work, and that the appreciation and pursuit of quality matters.

What I object to is people rejecting high quality work as being somehow not worthy, because there are examples available from others that are more exceptional.

Strive for the very best, but don't reject that which is merely valuable.

Although it may be back in the ether of this thread somewhere, describe what you mean by mid-range work and high quality work.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

How hard a person strives when they fail tells us far, far more about that person than how easily they achieved yet another success, real or imagined.

I understand not allowing the perfect to become the enemy of the good. I understand the wisdom and definition of the sweet spot.* Recognition of the appropriateness of these characteristics is part of the overall definition of excellence.

But as I said before, for me it's not about an individual's final end results one way or the other. It's about their determination and desire and effort and perseverance in both their successes and their failures. Because we all have different potentials, those qualities are the true measure of an individual's success.

It's the mindset that's the metric, not the stuff that results.

Ken

* One step before reaching the point of diminishing returns, thus the best possible outcome with no wasted effort or resources.

 

[blansky]

How hard a person strives when they fail tells us far, far more about that person than how easily they achieved yet another success, real or imagined.

I understand not allowing the perfect to become the enemy of the good. I understand the wisdom and definition of the sweet spot.* Recognition of the appropriateness of these characteristics is part of the overall definition of excellence.

But as I said before, for me it's not about an individual's final end results one way or the other. It's about their determination and desire and effort and perseverance in both their successes and their failures. Because we all have different potentials, those qualities are the true measure of an individual's success.

It's the mindset that's the metric, not the stuff that results.

Ken

* One step before reaching the point of diminishing returns, thus the best possible outcome with no wasted effort or resources.

And what we see especially in the acting profession is that easily achieved early success often leads to personal and substance abuse problems, partly because the person knows that they are sort of a fraud, and lucked out, and actually doubt their abilities, in which most cases they should. They didn't pay their dues, and have no real experience with failure, problem solving and building a reliable repertoire.

They are the movie star and not the actor. The LA movie star and not the NY stage actor or Brit stage actor, who can actually act and be both a movie star and an actor.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

So who IS that Australian guy wearing #8 in the yellow jersey? And where did he get that determination and desire and effort and perseverance?

Talent-wise he was definitely born a couple of notches on the curve below most of the other players on the court. But not a single other player out there has come anywhere close to matching him in percentage of god-given bell curve potential realized.

He's easily the biggest success story of the NBA Finals series thus far...



Ken

 

[blansky]

So who IS that Australian guy wearing #8 in the yellow jersey? And where did he get that determination and desire and effort and perseverance?

Talent-wise he was definitely born a couple of notches on the curve below most of the other players on the court. But not a single other player out there has come anywhere close to matching him in percentage of god-given bell curve potential realized.

He's easily the biggest success story of the NBA Finals series thus far...



Ken

Sorry. Missing the point. And don't follow basketball.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Sorry. Missing the point. And don't follow basketball.

You play hockey, so I know you can understand and appreciate this sports-related example of the universally applicable drive for excellence...

"Which leads us to Matthew Dellavedova [#8]. I mean, I don’t even know anymore. Nothing makes any sense. I remember vividly the first time I got to know Dellavedova, when he was a wild-haired maniac on a Saint Mary’s team that made a run in the NCAA Tournament. My friend and I thought he looked like The Feral Kid from Mad Max 2 and he cracked us up constantly.

The fact that the Feral Kid is now dropping 20 points in Game 3 of the NBA Finals is something I can’t even begin to comprehend. It doesn’t make any sense. He got the Cavaliers at least four extra possessions last night out of pure hustle. He was taken to the hospital after the game with severe cramping, taking an ambulance there. He was hospitalized last night from effort."​

—Nate Scott, For The Win, USA Today Sports, June 10, 2015​

(Emphasis is mine, by way of pure admiration.)

Ken

 

[blansky]

You play hockey, so I know you understand and can appreciate this sports-related example of the universally applicable drive for excellence...

"Which leads us to Matthew Dellavedova [#8]. I mean, I don’t even know anymore. Nothing makes any sense. I remember vividly the first time I got to know Dellavedova, when he was a wild-haired maniac on a Saint Mary’s team that made a run in the NCAA Tournament. My friend and I thought he looked like The Feral Kid from Mad Max 2 and he cracked us up constantly.

The fact that the Feral Kid is now dropping 20 points in Game 3 of the NBA Finals is something I can’t even begin to comprehend. It doesn’t make any sense. He got the Cavaliers at least four extra possessions last night out of pure hustle. He was taken to the hospital after the game with severe cramping, taking an ambulance there. He was hospitalized last night from effort."​

—Nate Scott, For The Win, USA Today Sports, June 10, 2015​

(Emphasis is mine, by way of admiration.)

Ken

Yeah, love players with heart.

 

[Bill Burk]

...He got the Cavaliers at least four extra possessions last night out of pure hustle. He was taken to the hospital after the game with severe cramping, taking an ambulance there. He was hospitalized last night from effort."[/I][/INDENT]

—Nate Scott, For The Win, USA Today Sports, June 10, 2015​

For regional comparison... My daughter's first two prints are drying right now.

Her picture of her friend is an excellent print (mediocre by some measures - but my fault not hers... there's not enough contrast because grade 3 just doesn't quite deliver the blacks that would look nice... while the rest of the subject is right-on. If I'd let her use multigrade she wouldn't have that problem).

And it's sharp and high enough resolution that you can see the individual embroidery threads in the Warriors logo on her beanie.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Full disclosure: I'm not a hockey fan, nor a basketball fan. I just liked the comment this guy made because it was negative and because he wasn't overly impressed.

My guess is that he's probably never personally experienced a sports-related maximum-effort cramp in his entire life. If he had, he would never have said that. Even to sell more advertising...

The only people not overly impressed with excellence are those who cannot recognize it.

Ken

 

[blansky]

I heard about this dehydration incident on the radio this morning. The Sports Illustrated commentator suggested it should be filed under "boo hoo", claiming while this might be an impressive level of exertion within a basketball context, it doesn't hold a candle to the energy/effort expended by a hockey player, for example.

Full disclosure: I'm not a hockey fan, nor a basketball fan.

It's not uncommon for hockey players, especially in the playoffs and overtime (sometimes 2 0r 3) meaning almost playing 5-6 periods of hockey and players that get a lot of ice time, namely top players, to get intravenous treatments after the game or even between overtime periods. Usually they get them in the training room.

Sweating and exerting looses not only water but a lot of nutrients, and drinking water does not replenish them well, or fast enough. From extreme dehydration you can get cramping, heart palpitations and you can die as some football players have training in the heat. You need to replenish sodium, potassium, magnesium and other nutrients to recover.

That's what the Lance Armstrong stuff was all about. Blood doping was taking your own blood, before extreme exertion and them putting it back in after a race day to help your recovery faster. The other stuff was to stop inflammation as well as lactic acid buildup and a myriad of other physiological stuff.

So sending someone to the hospital was for intravenous and to make sure other things weren't happening. And fast recovery is important because in usually 2 days they're back at it again.

 

[blansky]

I know that. The commentator was trying to make the point the player cramped from a lower level of exertion than that required in an average performance in another sport. This suggests a simple shortfall in the player's fitness level, rather than a superhuman energy expenditure. It was a commentary on reference points when we fawn.

OR the typical sports announcer/personality who is out of shape and usually a terrible athlete. The "color" guys would never make a comment like that I doubt, because they've been there.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

It was a commentary on reference points when we fawn.

Recognizing reality is not fawning. If the fitness level of the reserve bench player in question was not up to the fitness level of the starters, or athletes in other sports, then his dramatic reach for excellence becomes all the more noteworthy within that context.

There are worthy examples of others reaching for excellence all around us. That's not something we should try to hide from. Or belittle...

Ken

 

[MattKing]

Although it may be back in the ether of this thread somewhere, describe what you mean by mid-range work and high quality work.

In the photography world, you have probably seen portrait work that is both good - interesting to the onlooker, pleasing to the client, technically proficient, usable in multiple situations (the wallet print and the 11x14 on the wall and illustrating the annual report) - and consistently good, in that the same photographer has been able to supply that quality reliably, to many clients, over many years. It is just that the work only stands out because of its consistency. I would consider that mid-range work.

You have probably seen other portrait work that is similarly consistent, but exceptional as well - innovative to the point of breathtaking, remarkably insightful and fascinating to the onlooker. I would consider that high quality work.

Some might consider both examples as high quality work. Others would be unwilling to give the first example any consideration at all.

I refuse to dismiss as unworthy any work that fails to reach the highest level of excellence. Except in the relatively rare circumstance where I am seeking out only that highest level of excellence.

Talking about playoff series in sports is a bit of a red herring. They can be very entertaining, and some of the feats of athleticism and perseverance you see there are impressive, but if you only enjoy the end of the season, you aren't much of a "fan". If you enjoy the mid-season games where championships aren't even being envisioned, IMHO you have a much greater appreciation for the true value of the games.

 

[blansky]

In the photography world, you have probably seen portrait work that is both good - interesting to the onlooker, pleasing to the client, technically proficient, usable in multiple situations (the wallet print and the 11x14 on the wall and illustrating the annual report) - and consistently good, in that the same photographer has been able to supply that quality reliably, to many clients, over many years. It is just that the work only stands out because of its consistency. I would consider that mid-range work.

You have probably seen other portrait work that is similarly consistent, but exceptional as well - innovative to the point of breathtaking, remarkably insightful and fascinating to the onlooker. I would consider that high quality work.

Some might consider both examples as high quality work. Others would be unwilling to give the first example any consideration at all.

I refuse to dismiss as unworthy any work that fails to reach the highest level of excellence. Except in the relatively rare circumstance where I am seeking out only that highest level of excellence.

.

It's an interesting definition, and I think I know what you mean. But the high end work like we've had arguments here all the time may be technically incredible but because the guy is a master technician, and not the greatest people person, may not have achieved the charm or wonderful expression that the lesser technical guy did. So we come back to the same argument.

I've seen hundreds of different photographer's work in my field, and I've seen some of the absolute "greats" that I swear, miss the magic every time on expression. They are a millisecond late or early. They didn't feel it coming or something. So to me a portrait's number one obligations is expression, and the rest is learnable technique.

And once you get both elements, masterful technique and incredible expression then that's the epitome.

But there is still a place for a Sears portrait. To some it has more value than a Rembrandt.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

I refuse to dismiss as unworthy any work that fails to reach the highest level of excellence. Except in the relatively rare circumstance where I am seeking out only that highest level of excellence.

Again, it's not about the end result. It's about the mindset of striving for excellence leading up to an end result, regardless of what that end result turns out to be.

Put another way, initially accepting mediocrity when one could have aspired to, and achieved, more than that is not a definition of success I am interested in. I call that an excuse. The pursuit of excellence is not fawning. Nor is it a red herring.

YMMV...

Ken

 

[blansky]

Fair enough and points taken. I suppose my issue is I've really never been one to marvel at the reach for excellence unless the person in question is at the absolute top of the field. I can't help it. Those are my reference points.

I don't follow basketball at all and don't really know the game but you living in Montreal must know something of hockey. In hockey there are the superstars, usually goal scorers and offensive defensemen. Unfortunately you can't win with a team full of them. Team Canada tried it a few times and it doesn't work. You need role players. Character guys. Checkers, instigators, pests and even fighters etc.

These all have to come together into a cohesive unit. And you can't win without the lesser guys. So they too are at the top of their field, it's just that they don't score many of the goals. But the superstars know who they are and their importance to the team. In fact that's the beauty of a team sport. All these different guys, styles and talents molded together.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Fair enough and points taken. I suppose my issue is I've really never been one to marvel at the reach for excellence unless the person in question is at the absolute top of the field. I can't help it. Those are my reference points.

Fair enough as well, and understood.

I have a neighbor. Known him for decades since he was a small boy. Today he's grown and holds down a full-time job. He uses his earnings to pay his own way through life. His family likes him. His friends like him. His employer likes him. His employer's customers like him. His life is good, by any measure.

But the reality is he was born, let's just honestly acknowledge, a lot further down the curve than the rest of us. Far enough down that he requires a bit of additional help that the rest of us here don't. He has a state-employed case worker who coordinates with his employer to resolve issues. And coordinates with him to help manage his finances so no one takes advantage of him. As well, his fellow coworkers and neighbors also quietly keep their eyes open on his behalf. It's a situation that works to his benefit without being intrusive.

Even though he is not at the absolute top of any field of endeavor, his life is one magnificent success story. His drive for excellence has been both impressive and rewarding to see over the years. He has worked his butt off to become the best that he is capable of becoming, and he is as impressive to me as #8 is in the NBA Finals. And for exactly the same reasons. None of which have anything directly to do with sports in any way, but have everything to do with realizing his full potential by doggedly chasing it down.

Ken

 

[Vaughn]

...These all have to come together into a cohesive unit. And you can't win without the lesser guys. So they too are at the top of their field, it's just that they don't score many of the goals. But the superstars know who they are and their importance to the team. In fact that's the beauty of a team sport. All these different guys, styles and talents molded together.

I played Basketball thru high school and a couple years of college...then perhaps 25 years of city league (until I decided to save my knees for backpacking with my then newborn triplet boys). I loved the team aspect of the game -- the working together, weaving the strengths and weakness of our players into a unit. Towards the end my time on our team, we averaged over 40 years of age, but we would beat teams made up of 20-somethings.

I got the basketball jones.

Don't think many will watch much of this, LOL! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIbp5C-5WXM

 

[Sirius Glass]

Judge G. Harrold Carswell was nominated to the U.S. Supreme Court by President Richard M. Nixon then rejected by the Senate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._Harrold_Carswell
In defense against charges that Carswell was "mediocre", U.S. Senator Roman Hruska, a Nebraska Republican, stated:
"Even if he were mediocre, there are a lot of mediocre judges and people and lawyers. They are entitled to a little representation, aren't they, and a little chance? We can't have all Brandeises, Frankfurters and Cardozos."[5][6]