The Future of E-6

[RattyMouse]

Don't discount Innoviscoat (AGFA)

Fuji is selling off long ago manufactured film and when it's gone it's gone. Use the Acros experience as a guide. (I read postings of people buying a hundred 5-roll boxes of Acros at a time). Once Fuji announces the end of Provia or Velvia, the hoarders will descend and wipe out the supply in days not months.

Absolutely spot on. Acros' 9 months of supply was wiped out in 2 days. If you enjoy Fuji's E6 film, the time to stock up is NOW. Learn from my mistake....buy early.

 

[Minoltafan2904]

I was reading a few months ago rumors that the announcement of the discontinuation of Fuji slide films was imminent but nothing at all has happened, we'll have to see what happens, i won't really believe it until, or if Fuji ever announces it officially.
All i know is that the Provia and Velvia i've been buying is a fresh batch.

 

[Ste_S]

If following the same pattern - killing multi-packs, then killing the line altogether, Fuji E6 will be discontinued around December this year

 

[iandvaag]

120 multipacks are still available for all Fuji E6 films.

 

[thuggins]

I was reading a few months ago rumors that the announcement of the discontinuation of Fuji slide films was imminent but nothing at all has happened, we'll have to see what happens, i won't really believe it until, or if Fuji ever announces it officially.
All i know is that the Provia and Velvia i've been buying is a fresh batch.

Variations on this thread have been going around for nearly ten years, since the end of Kodachrome was announced. While Kodachrome was a wonderful film, the unusual requirements for its processing made it remarkable that it lasted as long as it did.

E-6 was always a niche market, even in the heyday of film. There was never an E-6 minilab that would process your slides in 30 minutes. Even in a major city slide processing usually involved sending them off for a week, so nothing has really changed there.

As it stands, no one has a crystal ball and we can only wait and see what happens. But it would certainly be odd if, after weathering the downturn and making it thru to when all manufacturers acknowledge a revival of film, Fuji announced they were discontinuing E-6 at the same time Kodak reintroduced it.

 

[John Salim]

Variations on this thread have been going around for nearly ten years, since the end of Kodachrome was announced. While Kodachrome was a wonderful film, the unusual requirements for its processing made it remarkable that it lasted as long as it did.

E-6 was always a niche market, even in the heyday of film. There was never an E-6 minilab that would process your slides in 30 minutes. Even in a major city slide processing usually involved sending them off for a week, so nothing has really changed there.

As it stands, no one has a crystal ball and we can only wait and see what happens. But it would certainly be odd if, after weathering the downturn and making it thru to when all manufacturers acknowledge a revival of film, Fuji announced they were discontinuing E-6 at the same time Kodak reintroduced it.

That's not quite true, and I wouldn't say E-6 was always a niche market.
There were many Pro-labs ( including the ones I worked for ) that offered a 2 hour ( ... or 1 1/2 hour ) turnaround for E-6.
( commercial E-6 can't be done in 30 minutes ).

There were even Kodachrome Pro-labs that offered a 2 hour turnaround !

John S

 

[Alan9940]

As it stands, no one has a crystal ball and we can only wait and see what happens. But it would certainly be odd if, after weathering the downturn and making it thru to when all manufacturers acknowledge a revival of film, Fuji announced they were discontinuing E-6 at the same time Kodak reintroduced it.

Not odd at all! Fuji long ago discontinued LF peel-apart film when they were the only game in town. FP-3000B and FP-100C were both readily available and in an instant (excuse the pun) it was gone. The Impossible Project, and now Polaroid Originals, seems to be able to market an instant film (and their film, IMO, ain't nearly as good as Fuji's was.) Velvia 50 sheet film was readily available in the USA not too long ago, now it's only available from Japan; and that supply is quickly drying up! Shall we talk about Acros? Fuji announced discontinuance, and the supply was gone in a few days. Therefore, I'd find it odd if Fuji actually supported we film photographers and they have touted for years now! Just sayin...

 

[MattKing]

My local E6 lab (Vancouver's "The Lab") still offers same day processing and, on at least some days, multiple runs during the day.

 

[flavio81]

E-6 was always a niche market, even in the heyday of film. There was never an E-6 minilab that would process your slides in 30 minutes. Even in a major city slide processing usually involved sending them off for a week, so nothing has really changed there.

Umm...

In the last heyday of film in my city (2005), the pro-lab i used to lurk around A LOT, did same-day E6 development. I think that if you left the film in the day, it would be ready on the afternoon.

And when I was there, E6 film was used a lot!! Basically the wedding pros would be the ones who shot a lot of C41 film, and all the other pros -- usually photojournalists that did documentary travels within the country, as well as some fashion pros -- used E6 apparently exclusively.

Every day that i went there, there were at least two pros examining slides on the light table.

But the amateurs (and the amateur labs) didn't do any E6 development (but they offered it -- by outsourcing to other labs), and usually they didn't carry E6 film. Some, say 1 of every 8, carried Ektachrome, and some even carried the unnamable film, which of course had to be developed abroad.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I would not be surprised that Kodak has secured a preferred vendor for mail in options of E6.. otherwise launching an new film seems silly, Keeping control of a E6 process requires lots of film and the main reason all the labs dumped the process.
I wouldn't be surprised if it not a private Vendor that is moved into Rochester to do this and maybe a West Coast Vendor.

 

[wblynch]

I would not be surprised that Kodak has secured a preferred vendor for mail in options of E6.. otherwise launching an new film seems silly, Keeping control of a E6 process requires lots of film and the main reason all the labs dumped the process.
I wouldn't be surprised if it not a private Vendor that is moved into Rochester to do this and maybe a West Coast Vendor.

Very interesting comment.

 

[Shoom]

As it stands, no one has a crystal ball and we can only wait and see what happens. But it would certainly be odd if, after weathering the downturn and making it thru to when all manufacturers acknowledge a revival of film, Fuji announced they were discontinuing E-6 at the same time Kodak reintroduced it.

Thing is, Fuji seems to follow that 'logic.' Back when the Acros announcement was made, Asahi Shimbun said Fuji's reasoning was that "Demand was limited to pro photographers and hobbyists and they were unable to guarantee sales would cover production costs" (Here's the link for those who read Japanese https://www.asahi.com/articles/ASL466H20L46ULFA02T.html?iref=pc_ss_date)

Though, the end of the article also says "Sales and production of color film will continue" so maybe the writing isn't on the wall for Velvia and Provia quite yet.

 

[AgX]

Don't discount Innoviscoat (AGFA) They have the capability to produce E-6. Plus the Rollei CN200 can be reversal processed to give transparencies. My opinion is the future of film transparencies lies with a film that can be both a negative and a positive, depending on processing method.

-) Inoviscoat is not Agfa
(it is a tiny manufacturer founded by a few Agfa researchers shortly before Agfa sold their consumer branch)

-) that a film can be reversal processed (which film cannot?) does not make it a good reversal film

-) up to curreent standards negative and reversal films are quite differrent.

 

[RattyMouse]

Thing is, Fuji seems to follow that 'logic.' Back when the Acros announcement was made, Asahi Shimbun said Fuji's reasoning was that "Demand was limited to pro photographers and hobbyists and they were unable to guarantee sales would cover production costs" (Here's the link for those who read Japanese https://www.asahi.com/articles/ASL466H20L46ULFA02T.html?iref=pc_ss_date)

Though, the end of the article also says "Sales and production of color film will continue" so maybe the writing isn't on the wall for Velvia and Provia quite yet.

With every film that Fujifilm discontinues, their manufacturing plant becomes that more inefficient. Each time they cease making an emulsion, just a little more of their economy of scale is lost. People who used to shoot Acros are not going to be switching to 400H or Velvia. So their plants become more and more idled.

How can Fujifilm continue to make film if their plants become more inefficient?

 

[Agulliver]

As I understand it, and please someone put me right if I am not....Fuji has not altered it's production to enable them to make smaller runs of emulsions. Kodak have done this as part of the preparation to relaunch Ektachrome and the first fruit of this is the reintroduction of P3200. Film Ferrania always intended to make smaller runs than the old Ferrania concern did. Fuji simply haven't done this, perhaps aren't able to with their equipment. So once it becomes uneconomic to produce something, it goes. If they cannot sell one production run before it expires....there's no way for them to manufacture a half batch, for example.

 

[miha]

The future is now! - I'm just tempering a water bath down in my basement darkroom in order to develop two rolls of AgfaPhoto Precisa... no fancy equipment, just a bucket full of water, three 300mm bottles of Tetenal Colortec E-6 chemicals, a S/H NOVA water heater, an aquarium pump, and a JOBO Multitank 2 on a roller base.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

At Northeast Photographic we run E6 generally 2x per month. When Ektachrome is released I am hoping to increase that to weekly, and I am working hard on a scanning solution for full rolls that will yield higher resolution and latitude. Once that is done I hope to educate my clients about the very high quality image that a good chrome film can produce. It does generally require more forethought and effort, but the results speak for themselves. A 35mm tranny is often as high quality as a 645 Portra 400 negative...or at least it's bridges the gap by a good margin.

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

At Northeast Photographic we run E6 generally 2x per month.

Huh? Twice monthly?? That's the lowest of any lab I've heard of.
Here close to the big city of Melbourne labs are running E6 6 days a week concurrently with C-41 and its pretty busy. Only one lab though is processing E6 in 4x5 and the now rare 8x10 E6 (Velvia 50).

 

[RattyMouse]

Huh? Twice monthly?? That's the lowest of any lab I've heard of.
Here close to the big city of Melbourne labs are running E6 6 days a week concurrently with C-41 and its pretty busy. Only one lab though is processing E6 in 4x5 and the now rare 8x10 E6 (Velvia 50).

E6 is dead. We should be glad that there's enough film to make a run once a month.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

Huh? Twice monthly?? That's the lowest of any lab I've heard of.
Here close to the big city of Melbourne labs are running E6 6 days a week concurrently with C-41 and its pretty busy. Only one lab though is processing E6 in 4x5 and the now rare 8x10 E6 (Velvia 50).

I can only respond to the volume I receive. I can say say that Melbourne has a higher population by about 2-3x than the entire state of Maine, so that could account for greater volume.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Further to my post above #35 , I believe Kodak is going to help some lab create a market for mail in to a central location where every day enough film is run to keep the plots correct. I was a manager of a excellent E6 lab which ran 18 hours a day 6 days a week and our plots were spot on .The reduction of film volume is the reason for most labs dropping E6 as the owners of these labs know that unless the plots are running correctly they will have front counter issues.


I will point out that a lot of the images loaded onto this site and others of home E6 have tremendous issues in quality, from cross curves issues (main culprit) to lack of contrast (second culprit) . I have been on this site for 13 years and the amount of threads of film process errors is probably the single most common topic here since I have been here. It is human nature to blame others (Kodak) first rather than admit error , I suspect this would be the kiss of death for them , being accused of making bad film.
Kodak is not going to put out a ton of film to the market place unless it has a verified vendor to send the film too to give a fighting chance of excellent process control. It is one thing to process your self at home , but believe me when you are doing it for others unless you have excellent plots and the backing of the manufactures tech service you are screwed.
I have been in the photo lab business side for over 40 years , in many roles and I can say with certain that consistency of good products has been Kodaks, Fuji, Ilford, Agfa and others strong points, In major labs no technician was allowed to blame
the materials, but were encouraged to look in the mirror and figure out the problem.

I do not see any future for E6 unless this happens, over time with success maybe there will be a resurgence but IMO the only way this is going to happen if there is this outlet to protect Kodaks interests, putting on my crystal ball I predict a facility in Rochester run by a sub contractor not owned by Kodak.

I have stopped film process there just is not enough of a market to offer a quality service and I really hate getting rolls of trix or 35mm fp4 that has been sitting in a freezer or fridge for 20 years , this happens more than one would think and its almost impossible for me to load these films on my reels for Jobo development.
In Toronto there are two vendors taking care of film process with dip and dunk machines for black and white and colour negative, neither of them are doing E6. Both or one of them would have to stop film process for me to consider purchasing a Jobo Technolab which is adaptable for main three processes, but I highly doubt this is going to happen .

We all went through the pain of the cadmium based papers leaving the market, and now we are seeing prices for silver paper at a level that it is much easier to make a Pt Pd print of an image than silver.
IMO Its only a matter of time ( five years) before we see silver paper impossible to purchase.
The big resurgence right now is Wet Plate, Gum , Palladium , Home Emulsions for Silver, is not a trend but a reality as keeping a darkroom with enlargers alive is getting harder and harder and purchasing the materials is getting out of sight, unless you are a hobbiest like many here that may print once or twice a year and have figured out a home darkroom setup in a bathroom. I am afraid this market is not enough to create a financial vehical for the paper and film vendors to bring their products back in a price range that can compete with inkjet or alternative processes.

for example in my darkroom when I am printing for exhibition which I charge a real money to do, a 20 x24 Silver Gelatin size it takes me 6 - 8 sheets to make the final print, ( I am sure there are people here who say they can do it in 3) .
With the price of paper 20 x24 around $9.00 per sheet , the chemistry fee, the acid free mount you can see it adds up. I still print enough jobs in my darkroom over a year to keep it going but I am now making it a modular room to accept Alternative as well as Silver to par down my footprint and survive in this large city where rents, hydro operating cost have gone out the window.

Stephen Frizza who is a member here runs a E6 lab in Australia and the daily numbers that he does allows for proper plots to create a consistent quality, he gets film from all over the world and his lab would be one of the locations that I think will be the last standing for film process, not a small vendor like me.

 

[Alan9940]

Thank you, Bob C. Very helpful to have someone with your experience have a voice here and I couldn't agree more with everything you said. I would have never guessed, 30 years ago, that someday pt/pd printing would seem cheap!

 

[DREW WILEY]

Bob, the problem here is certainly not lack of demand, but the increasing gentrification of real estate which is driving out all but the most lucrative corporations, esp
ones with hazmat issues. Local oil refineries generate billions of dollars per year in income; film processors can barely pay the rent. I can still get 8x10 E-6 done in
this area, but no longer 8X10 C-41. They had to downsize and no longer had room for both machines. 4X5 and smaller is still readily available for both processes.
So I'll have to send my 8x10 color negs to the south of the State. Guess I could always process them myself; but that's just one more rote chore I'd prefer to avoid.
What is killing me right now is the cost of museum board. All three local wholesale framing supply distributors have been forced out business, despite strong sales volume. The land their warehouses were on got sold out from underneath them. Developers will pay tens of millions just for the lot, level everything, and then put up obscenely expensive condos and retail space catering to techies. I'll have to get set up with a new source for board.

 

[RattyMouse]

Further to my post above #35 , I believe Kodak is going to help some lab create a market for mail in to a central location where every day enough film is run to keep the plots correct.

What evidence exists to support this supposition? Is there any at all or is this just a guess?

 

[Bob Carnie]

Its only inevitable Spock