The Future of Colour and B&W Film with Ilford...

[flavio81]

So class A really went out of fashion, finally. Energy bills caught up with the audio peeps as well?

I am reading this thread while listening to my Class A power amplifier, so I got a lot of fun when reading this.

Class A is as linear as it gets. However, the state of the art Class D designs are very good.

The setup I listen through the most is a little Philips TDA15xx on a custom PCB boxed inside a small enclosure and fed from a small USB adapter.

TDA1540 ? 1541? Those two are very, very good sounding chips in non-oversampling mode, proven that the surrounding circuitry is good too.

It receives an analog signal from the onboard sound card of my generic HP desktop computer.

How can the DAC receive an analog signal?

For me it's anything from Dark Jazz to Industrial Black Metal. Or nothing at all when hard thinking is involved.

Why not Dark Industrial Black Metal Jazz?

Listen to this and blow your mind:

 

[koraks]

How can the DAC receive an analog signal?

It's not a DAC. It's an integrated amplifier IC, intended originally for car audio purposes. Back in the 1980s or so when it was conceived.

There's this parallel between photography and music/audio. In both domains, we see people fussing endlessly over the line the connects the creative art to its consumption. In my view, the closer you get to the end points, the more it matters. The stuff in the middle is the least interesting. In both music and photography, the artist's vision is the main determinant if it's worth spending any time on to begin with. Then there are quasi-technical choices like composition and orchestration that matter, and performance in music. At the other extreme, if someone is visually impaired or only hears a certain part of the spectrum, a lot of the 'fidelity' is lost anyway. If people view prints under dollar-store LED bulbs intended for a clothes cabinet or listen to music on $10 computer speakers, or in a room where the speakers are positioned in such a way that acoustic destroy any fidelity to begin with, what does it matter what happens on the wire/process in between those end points?

Yet, virtually all of the talk on photo forums as well as DIY audio focuses on the wire.

 

[gary mulder]

It's not a DAC. It's an integrated amplifier IC, intended originally for car audio purposes. Back in the 1980s or so when it was conceived.

There's this parallel between photography and music/audio. In both domains, we see people fussing endlessly over the line the connects the creative art to its consumption. In my view, the closer you get to the end points, the more it matters. The stuff in the middle is the least interesting. In both music and photography, the artist's vision is the main determinant if it's worth spending any time on to begin with. Then there are quasi-technical choices like composition and orchestration that matter, and performance in music. At the other extreme, if someone is visually impaired or only hears a certain part of the spectrum, a lot of the 'fidelity' is lost anyway. If people view prints under dollar-store LED bulbs intended for a clothes cabinet or listen to music on $10 computer speakers, or in a room where the speakers are positioned in such a way that acoustic destroy any fidelity to begin with, what does it matter what happens on the wire/process in between those end points?

Yet, virtually all of the talk on photo forums as well as DIY audio focuses on the wire.

Nicely formulated. Gives a good analysis of what people are doing on forums.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Why not Dark Industrial Black Metal Jazz?

Listen to this and blow your mind:

This indeed it will suffice when HP5+ gives me trash @1600, trying to have something worthwhile with Ilford Reversal - perfectly captures the struggle: the hopeful beginning and bravado, followed by frustration and smashed chemistry bottles, ending in cacophony of futility, acceptance... and rebirth of the struggle!

 

[paddycook]

Yet, virtually all of the talk on photo forums as well as DIY audio focuses on the wire.

I think it’s because enthusiasts enjoy the craft as well as the art, and judging by the incredible quality of the prints I see in museums a fair few master photographers (or at least their printers if not the same) were also obsessive about their craft.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Getting us back on track... I opened up my film fridge as well as the freezer, and the majority of film in there is Ilford, including Phoenix. Another brick of 120 Kentmere 200 arrived yesterday, as well as a brick of the 400. Running out of space! So many Ilford options to choose from!

 

[thinkbrown]

Getting us back on track... I opened up my film fridge as well as the freezer, and the majority of film in there is Ilford, including Phoenix. Another brick of 120 Kentmere 200 arrived yesterday, as well as a brick of the 400. Running out of space! So many Ilford options to choose from!

I have no idea what you're talking about. There's always room in the film fridge

 

[DREW WILEY]

But how long was it till the Phoenix bird actually came back from the dead? A thousand years, or something like that?
That's a long, long time to leave the film in the refrigerator till you can actually use it.

 

[flavio81]

It's not a DAC. It's an integrated amplifier IC, intended originally for car audio purposes. Back in the 1980s or so when it was conceived.

Oh! I read "TDA15xx" and I immediatelly asummed you were talking about the TDA1540 or TDA1541, famous DAC chips by Philips.

I didn't know there were some Philips chip amps that also started with "TDA15". Until today.

This indeed it will suffice when HP5+ gives me trash @1600, trying to have something worthwhile with Ilford Reversal - perfectly captures the struggle: the hopeful beginning and bravado, followed by frustration and smashed chemistry bottles, ending in cacophony of futility, acceptance... and rebirth of the struggle!

Lol!! Glad you liked it.

HP5 works perfectly at 1600 with Microphen. But on negative, that is... Reversal, that's going against laws of nature. It seems that for some arcane reason it is hard to get high speed reversal films in general, the fastest i've heard of was Fuji MS 100/1000 which had a real ISO of 100, Scotchchrome 1000 and 640T.

By the way, is "Ivo Stunga" a play on "Ivan Stang" (founder of the Church of the Subgenius)?

Praise "Bob"!

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Lol!! Glad you liked it.

HP5 works perfectly at 1600 with Microphen. But on negative, that is... Reversal, that's going against laws of nature. It seems that for some arcane reason it is hard to get high speed reversal films in general, the fastest i've heard of was Fuji MS 100/1000 which had a real ISO of 100, Scotchchrome 1000 and 640T.

By the way, is "Ivo Stunga" a play on "Ivan Stang" (founder of the Church of the Subgenius)?

Praise "Bob"!

It's just my name.
And Kentmere 100 @400 works fine, even @800 you have a decent image. HP5+ @400 works too, but pushing it to 1600 and maintaining contrast and DMAX with Ilford Reversal - a challenge to say the least. I still have a few moves in mind before putting HP5+@1600 idea to rest. It's perfectly usable @400 and shines in hard contrast situations, making it a solid choice as an URBEX film.

Double X 200 works good, so does SFX 200, Fomapan 200 and Kentmere 400...

 

[captainbedworthy]

Lol you’re going to utterly ruin the day for people around here with that opinion, ruiner.

I just ran through two rolls of FPP's Infra Red, (750nm) which is a respooled product. I have no info on what it is, there's no rebate marks nor numbers. But the anti halation layer is yellowish green, and the base it's on is very thin, the thinnest I've encountered. It does give the proper contrast, but not extremely so. HIE was all there ever was, and is among the reasons I do not ever buy Eastman. They're like Lucy Van Pelt holding the football for Charlie Brown to place kick. Psych!
I logged in here for the first time in over a decade to see what the buzz might be about Harman going into just this very idea. I caught an industry promo video from them all about re-investing into new production machinery and R&D last week. It made me wonder the same thing. Why not? If strange items like "Lomography" (God I hate that term) film are making the cut economically, and the remnants of Eastman are still cranking out lith fi… er I mean T-Max, then wouldn't an actually interesting I.R. offering fly well?
Thinking of a letter campaign to their corporate headquarters in London. Thoughts all?

 

[koraks]

a letter campaign

Hahaha!

 

[Agulliver]

As has been explained before, HIE isn't going to make a comeback. Once the US government stopped using it, it was economically unviable to make. The market for IR film is microscopic....a niche within a niche within a niche.

If that alone is enough for someone to decide never to "buy Eastman" then....well I guess that's a take...

Harman, quite sensibly, are concentrating on market segments that are reasonably likely to make them money and not lose it. They already make a B&W IR film, and have by far the most comprehensive range of B&W film photography products offered by any company in the world.

The next and only logical step is colour....and in the process of R&D to eventually produce a "normal" colour film, they have given those who want to buy it some unusual/unique films. Nobody is forced to buy them if they don't want.

I am sure that Harman would be receptive to a polite email suggesting you're interested in further R&D on their SFX IR film.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Lith and TMax in the same sentence? Maybe after finally waking up after a very long snooze, Rip Van Winkle should clear some cobwebs off his eyes. TMax was a massive home run product for Kodak, and still is. One of the most versatile films ever, with superb quality control. You should check out the amount of investment Kodak has been making in new coating equipment and training new technicians. And without them, color film is really in trouble, that is, in any serious sense.

 

[polaromar]

FPP Infrared is Astrum IR-200. There was some speculation on the thread about Astrum IR that it is a batch of Agfa Aviphot 200 that was defective, but had heightened IR sensitivity compared to spec, so Astrum brought it. Thus it's a limited product.

As cool as IR is, there's no point in it anymore. It's not even needed for aerial photography, Tasma film is not IR sensitive.

 

[MCB18]

There is one addition Ilford could make to B&W is a true infrared film that is sensitized to around 900nm. Why hasn't anyone done this since Kodak Infrared went belly up? Are the necessary spectral sensitizers just not available?

No, the sensitizers are not available anymore, basically as soon as the US government stopped buying the film, Kodak had no reason to make it. And since Kodak was the largest consumer of the stuff on the planet, the chemical manufacturers stopped making it. Technically you can still get it in limited quantities, but you’re looking at thousands per gram. As much as I love IR, to the point where I’m driving myself silly trying to get some really weird film that’s true IR on the market again, I’m not naïve enough to believe that Ilford or Kodak is ever going to make a super high speed IR film ever again.

Also, I lament Ilford getting into color film. What's the point in reinventing the wheel in an inferior way? I would assume with all the technical know-how out there, yet they end up with the crazy spectral plots for Phoenix. We probably don't have a whole lot of time left in this analogue game and we don't need extra R&D costs distributed to B&W products.

So, to put this in perspective, to get where Kodak is now, it took them over 100 years. Ilford took 12 months. They are absolutely relying on past research, they are in no way reinventing the wheel. Is it particularly good film in comparison to stuff that Kodak and Fuji offered? No, and to be quite honest I don’t think they’re going to get even close to that point for a few years yet. Kodak and Fuji have so much insider knowledge that they aren’t going to share with Ilford that helped them get these results. But the fact that we’re getting anything at all at this point in time is, quite frankly, pretty cool.

 

[polaromar]

I would also argue that, if you look on Reddit and the like, the reaction to Phoenix has been far removed from being a failure. Phoenix 1 was really a hit with the lomo type crowd.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Maybe Dill Pickle flavored ice cream has its "crowd" too.

 

[thinkbrown]

I would also argue that, if you look on Reddit and the like, the reaction to Phoenix has been far removed from being a failure. Phoenix 1 was really a hit with the lomo type crowd.

It's capable of some really lovely results, even if the colors are less than accurate. This is a shot I took from earlier in the spring, and while you get the pretty obvious phoenix orange reds, I'm really fond of the result.

 

[Roger Thoms]

Yes, please! SFX and Pan F in sheet film sizes!

Yeah and Delta 400 too.

 

[Roger Thoms]

Every time I drive Gilroy I see plenty of signs advertising Garlic ice cream, so it makes sense that there would be Dill Pickle ice cream too. Personally I’m of the “If there’s not chocolate I’m not interested crowd”

 

[polaromar]

It's capable of some really lovely results, even if the colors are less than accurate. This is a shot I took from earlier in the spring, and while you get the pretty obvious phoenix orange reds, I'm really fond of the result.

Nicely shot! I've struggled with it, honestly. But I did get a pretty spectacular sunset photo from it.