The formula for GVM1, a custom and unique phenidone-glycin film developer

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grainyvision

grainyvision

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I have printed FP4 shot at 400 ISO at 11x14. Grain is visible but not intrusive and sharpness is great.

unfortunately there are no good replacements for glycin in this formula. The specific requirement is for something only mildly super additive with phenidone. HQMS is the closest candidate but is also unavailable
 

lantau

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I have printed FP4 shot at 400 ISO at 11x14. Grain is visible but not intrusive and sharpness is great.

unfortunately there are no good replacements for glycin in this formula. The specific requirement is for something only mildly super additive with phenidone. HQMS is the closest candidate but is also unavailable

HQMS is a little less than a quarter the price of Glycin. At Suvatlar Photochems (Germany) 25g of Glycin are €30.35, 70g of HQMS €18.56. It's annoying, how you'd need to shop on both sides of the pond to be able to get everything for various experiments. I mixed FX-1 for a test with Ferrania P30 (didn't get much more respone in the low zones) and would have liked to mix FX-2, as well. But I can't get the restrainer/dye used in it here.
 
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grainyvision

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For those that are interesting, I've created a new prototype specifically with the aim of making an easier to source recipe for GVM1. It still requires glycin, but eliminates more unusual ingredients like potassium sulfite and glycol, even if these are not greatly difficult to source ingredients.

GVM2, prototype #1:
* 130ml water
* 6.1g sodium sulfite
* 25g sodium carbonate, monohydrate
* 0.3g sodium bicarbonate (recommend: 0.5g)
* (slight heating makes this a lot easier to dissolve)
* 3.6g glycin (will not dissolve until adding alcohol. Make a slurry)
* 0.34g Phenidone-A (will not dissolve until adding alcohol)
* 20ml 91% isopropyl alcohol (drug store sourced)
* Top to 200ml with water
* Use as you would GVM1 but with double the amount of concentrate to make working solution. Dilution A is 40ml of concentrate to make 1L of water, dilution B is 60, and dilution C is 80
* Color should be slightly more pale than GVM1. Exhibits the same oxidation color reaction as GVM1, so if the concentrate goes green or blue it should be considered untrustworthy

Behavior is very similar but slightly more active, thus the recommendation to add more sodium bicarbonate. I've only done one test run of this developer but will watch how this developer concentrate ages.. so basically I provide this formula without any guarantee. It exhibits the same smooth yet sharp grain effect, gives slightly thicker max density, has the same extreme compensation effect, and the same peculiar contrast curve. It may give higher sharpness and/or better edge effects. However, it does not seem to give as much of a speed increase as GVM1 gives, potentially due to using only sodium salts. FP4+@400 test shots specifically give shadow details that are decent density but then fall off into dmin very rapidly, whereas in GVM1 this was not the case. I also doubt that the shelf life will be nearly as good due to phenidone's easy rate of ring breakage in alkaline solution and due to the lower sulfite concentration of the concentrate.

Example images. 70F, 12m development time, dilution A.

FP4+@200:
eLKLloh.jpg


FP4+@200:
FBKmFqg.jpg


100% crop:
Z3nwfQZ.png


Ultrafine Extreme 100 @ 400:
YjK6PHJ.jpg


Edit:
In regards to shelf life and oxidation. I took a small amount of the concentrate and mixed it to water. The solution went a mild blue-green after just 10m, much faster than the same experiment with GVM1 (typically takes 1-2 hours). Most importantly however, it was not possible to restore the solution to its original color. With GVM1 if more glycin is added then the solution will return to the original pinkish color. If sulfite is added the solution color will greatly lighten. With this GVM2 prototype I observed neither reaction. Sulfite only barely lightened the solution. Glycin had no visual effect. I believe this points to glycin being a much poorer preservative of phenidone compared to dimezone, and likely to be slightly less superadditive, but it did not seem to greatly affect results in this test at least.
 
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it does not seem to give as much of a speed increase as GVM1 gives, potentially due to using only sodium salts.

Potassium sulphite is expensive but you can consider using Potassium versions of Carbonate (like you did in the first version of your formula) and Bicarbonate if that helps with speed.
 
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Anon Ymous

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Potassium sulphite is expensive but you can consider using Potassium versions of Carbonate and Bicarbonate in your formula if that helps with speed.
Potassium sulfite can be substituted with the right amounts of potassium metabisulfite and potassium hydroxide. These are fairly easily to obtain.
 

Alan Johnson

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Leaving out substances having [IMO] no effect , working solutions are as follows, g/L:
GVM2-1 Sodium sulfite 1.22, sodium carbonate anh 4.16, glycin 0.72, phenidone .068 [40ml->1L]
FX-1 (Crawley) Sodium sulfite 5, sodium carbonate anh 2.5, metol 0.5
So GVM2-1 seems to be an acutance developer with metol replaced by the superadditive glycin/phenidone
 
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grainyvision

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Leaving out substances having [IMO] no effect , working solutions are as follows, g/L:
GVM2-1 Sodium sulfite 1.22, sodium carbonate anh 4.16, glycin 0.72, phenidone .068 [40ml->1L]
FX-1 (Crawley) Sodium sulfite 5, sodium carbonate anh 2.5, metol 0.5
So GVM2-1 seems to be an acutance developer with metol replaced by the superadditive glycin/phenidone

I use a similar low sulfite, high dilution glycin-metol developer and while it may produce sharp grain that is unobtrusive but the contrast behavior is completely different. It is a mostly uncompensating developer. Combining glycin and metol provides for an interesting way to do contrast control though. Additional glycin will slow down development but increase shadow density. Additional metol will increase highlight density. So I use a larger amount of glycin and very small amount of metol. It is also a speed boosting developer which is excellent at pushing.
 
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After almost a month, a solution of GVM1 has had a significant amount of crystals fall out of solution. They are white and crystaline in appearance and do not dissolve in the concentrate with gentle swishing. Solution color has otherwise remained unchanged and minimal oxygen absorption (ie, plastic bottle collapse) has been observed. Anyone have any idea what may cause this? My only suspicion is that some potassium sulfite reacted with oxygen and sodium metaborate to form sodium sulfate, or somehow has reacted without the oxygen to instead form sodium sulfite. In theory using potassium metaborate would resolve this if that is the case by removing all sources of sodium, but would also require in situ synthesis from potassium hydroxide and boric acid since potassium metaborate is not easily available. I will likely try this synthesis using every bit of PPE I have for fun just to see what the solubility of potassium metaborate is, as a curiosity. I expect to be able to make a 75% solution... but I know that's definitely not an ideal thing to do for most people. I'm just always looking for highly soluble alkalis. Regardless, I'm unsure how this happened and curious if anyone has any insight
 

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After almost a month, a solution of GVM1 has had a significant amount of crystals fall out of solution. They are white and crystaline in appearance and do not dissolve in the concentrate with gentle swishing. Solution color has otherwise remained unchanged and minimal oxygen absorption (ie, plastic bottle collapse) has been observed. Anyone have any idea what may cause this? My only suspicion is that some potassium sulfite reacted with oxygen and sodium metaborate to form sodium sulfate, or somehow has reacted without the oxygen to instead form sodium sulfite. In theory using potassium metaborate would resolve this if that is the case by removing all sources of sodium, but would also require in situ synthesis from potassium hydroxide and boric acid since potassium metaborate is not easily available. I will likely try this synthesis using every bit of PPE I have for fun just to see what the solubility of potassium metaborate is, as a curiosity. I expect to be able to make a 75% solution... but I know that's definitely not an ideal thing to do for most people. I'm just always looking for highly soluble alkalis. Regardless, I'm unsure how this happened and curious if anyone has any insight

First of all, it is possible that your solution is generally too concentrated and it simply takes a while for the supersaturated solution to precipitate.

If the Sodium salt of whatever you have, either sulfite, or oxidised to sulfate, isn't soluble in your concentrated solution it can crystallise slowly. The Potassium salt will do the same but redissolve again. In solution there is no Sodium or Potasium Sulfite or Metaborate. Only the dissociated ions. The crystallisation will happen with both alkali ions and the sodium one will stay put if the speed of dissolution is too slow here. I assume you are familiar with chemical equilibrium.

Or maybe you are salting out developing agents in your concentrated solution? You may have simply hit a practical limit. Is it really necessary to make a 1+100 developer?
 
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grainyvision

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First of all, it is possible that your solution is generally too concentrated and it simply takes a while for the supersaturated solution to precipitate.

If the Sodium salt of whatever you have, either sulfite, or oxidised to sulfate, isn't soluble in your concentrated solution it can crystallise slowly. The Potassium salt will do the same but redissolve again. In solution there is no Sodium or Potasium Sulfite or Metaborate. Only the dissociated ions. The crystallisation will happen with both alkali ions and the sodium one will stay put if the speed of dissolution is too slow here. I assume you are familiar with chemical equilibrium.

Or maybe you are salting out developing agents in your concentrated solution? You may have simply hit a practical limit. Is it really necessary to make a 1+100 developer?

The developing agents would be phenidone and glycin, which I don't believe appear like this. These crystals looks exactly like sodium sulfite to me. Potassium sulfite is much smaller and powdery crystals and plus potassium sulfite dropping out of solution seems unlikely with how soluble it is. Sodium sulfate also appears more fluffy than this. The solution was mixed without heating, so I'm unsure how it would become super saturated and then suddenly not be able to dissolve more. Sulfite and sulfate are nearly equivalent solubility for both sodium and potassium versions, but of course are greatly different between the sodium and potassium versions. This is why my best guess is that somehow sodium sulfite was formed. I understand equilibrium and that things are just ions in solution, but here seems complex given that both sodium and potassium ions are present, as well as glycol which metaborate is soluble in but not sulfite and I know glycol causes sodium sulfite to be less soluble (but unsure about potassium sulfite). I also know strongly alkali solutions also can cause sodium sulfite to fall out of solution.

I have no formal education in chemistry, so any explanation you can give would be helpful. It is not necessary to create such a strongly concentrated a developer, but I believe it contributes to the shelf life of the solution.

If you can separate out the crystals from the concentrate, you may try dissolving them in small amount of water and test pH.

It might be more informative to see if it is soluble in alcohol to confirm it is not a product of glycin or phenidone. And try glycol to see if it is metaborate. That would leave only sulfite, sulfate, or carbonate finally and sodium or potassium could be tested by how much is soluble in a fixed amount of water. And sulfite/sulfate could be determined from carbonate by testing pH. The real difficult one to test is sulfite vs sulfate, since the drying process would likely oxidize sulfite, as I don't have a vacuum chamber or any other clean way of drying the powder otherwise. I'd also have to make a fairly large batch of developer and purposefully let this precipitate issue happen, since the amount of powder, even if relatively significant, is still such a small amount from my test batch that it'd be difficult to work with.

An alternative that I may try is using potassium metaborate (check a previous thread I posted in for synthesis details) which would pretty quickly determine if it's an issue with using potassium vs sodium salts, though of course I expect most people would not want to mess with the synthesis process, even if relatively simple.
 

ruilourosa

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The belief that a high concentration developer will have more shelf life may be because of rodinal, then hc110...
Glicin has that fame also...
But your formulation may not have the needed balance...
 

albada

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...The real difficult one to test is sulfite vs sulfate, since the drying process would likely oxidize sulfite....
Could you dry the powder by rinsing it in alcohol? Hopefully the alcohol would dry fast enough to avoid oxidation. A test for sulfite-vs-sulfate would to add Metol, turning it into D-23, and see whether it develops film. But I'm not a chemist, so my ideas might be ridiculous.

Mark Overton
 

lantau

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The developing agents would be phenidone and glycin, which I don't believe appear like this. These crystals looks exactly like sodium sulfite to me. Potassium sulfite is much smaller and powdery crystals and plus potassium sulfite dropping out of solution seems unlikely with how soluble it is. Sodium sulfate also appears more fluffy than this. The solution was mixed without heating, so I'm unsure how it would become super saturated and then suddenly not be able to dissolve more. Sulfite and sulfate are nearly equivalent solubility for both sodium and potassium versions, but of course are greatly different between the sodium and potassium versions. This is why my best guess is that somehow sodium sulfite was formed. I understand equilibrium and that things are just ions in solution, but here seems complex given that both sodium and potassium ions are present, as well as glycol which metaborate is soluble in but not sulfite and I know glycol causes sodium sulfite to be less soluble (but unsure about potassium sulfite). I also know strongly alkali solutions also can cause sodium sulfite to fall out of solution.

I have no formal education in chemistry, so any explanation you can give would be helpful. It is not necessary to create such a strongly concentrated a developer, but I believe it contributes to the shelf life of the solution.

The supersaturation idea was a just a thought. I don't think it is highly likely, but perhaps something to keep in mind.

Warming up a solution to get more substance dissolved is the obvious case. I was thinking that maybe you may have managed to get a slight supersaturation. A border case. You are adding some components as solution. Also you are mixing a system of two solvents, water and glycol. Who knows what it'll do initially and then later, when it reaches equilibrium.

You seem to have a pretty good handle on chemistry, so I didn't want to get too detailed regarding the equilibrium of solution. No point in preaching to the choir. Essentially I was just trying to rationalise what you were already thinking that happened. You don't convert K2SO3 to Na2SO3 in solution, because there is no such thing in solution. But the dissolved ions can crystallise. And a Sulfite ion can crystallise with either a Sodium or a Potassium ion swimming around. Both will happen. That is more or less the 'reaction' that you would have in mind:

2Na^+(aq) + SO3^2-(aq) <--> Na2SO3(s).
2K^+(aq) + SO3^2-(aq) <--> K2SO3(s).

This process is running in both directions, as do all reactions. Formally at least.

The solubility of the solid is the constant that determines the equlibrium of this system. I.e. which side you will end up having in your bottle.

Equilibrium means that the process never stops. As an example: a saturated solution of NaCl with crystalline NaCl at the bottom looks static. But the solid keeps dissolving, slowly, while ions are being deposited at the same speed. Like a full nightclub. Five people come out, so five people are allowed in.

The same process will happen with the Potassium ion and the sulfite. For K2SO3 the solubility is much higher, so the dissolution will be dominant and you'll have essentially no solid. For the Sodium salt we are not sure. That is the question here. What we need to know is the solubility of Sodiumsulfite in a solution of Potassiumsulfite at the concentration in your developer. There are a few more other components, all of which will have some influence. As you say, this is a very complex system. But this is something that you could test if you have both chemicals. This will only be an approximation because in your developer the Sodium ions come from another salt and the sulfite concentration remains constant. You could also add NaCl to the K2SO3 solution and see what happens.

I am not working as a chemist - I ended up in IT, but I was a chemist, originally. That is why I like to do a little self mixing, occasionally, and doing darkroom work in general.

So I can only delve into the theory of what could be happening. I don't have that much practical experience on this particular problem. I did read about solubility issues in the Film Dev Cookbook and did wonder about it. DD-X was the prominent example, I think. Some sodium will obviously be tolerated, and, as I have tried to explain above, I believe this will work as long as the respective (much smaller) amounts of the (formal) sodium salts are still soluble in the overall solution.


It might be more informative to see if it is soluble in alcohol to confirm it is not a product of glycin or phenidone. And try glycol to see if it is metaborate. That would leave only sulfite, sulfate, or carbonate finally and sodium or potassium could be tested by how much is soluble in a fixed amount of water. And sulfite/sulfate could be determined from carbonate by testing pH. The real difficult one to test is sulfite vs sulfate, since the drying process would likely oxidize sulfite, as I don't have a vacuum chamber or any other clean way of drying the powder otherwise. I'd also have to make a fairly large batch of developer and purposefully let this precipitate issue happen, since the amount of powder, even if relatively significant, is still such a small amount from my test batch that it'd be difficult to work with.

An alternative that I may try is using potassium metaborate (check a previous thread I posted in for synthesis details) which would pretty quickly determine if it's an issue with using potassium vs sodium salts, though of course I expect most people would not want to mess with the synthesis process, even if relatively simple.

If you had very fine needles it could have been a hint toward organic compounds. In your case it could be anything, but a salt will be most likely. I also wouldn't waste too much effort on determining if it is sulfite or sulfate, at least initially. You said that the solubility of sulfite/sulfate is very similar. Hence, the solution for the solubility problem shouldn't be affected. The question of oxidation will be another problem you may have to care about, or not. It is one of the jobs of the sulfite to be an oxygen scavenger, after all. There should be enough there to continue maintaining its other functions.
 
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grainyvision

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Have you tested your developer after the formation of crystals? If it works fine, then you can perhaps ignore the issue till it becomes a real problem to solve. :wink:

Ideally if it works fine without whatever those crystals are, then I can just exclude or reduce the amount in the formula.

Regarding sodium vs potassium ion talk. I've observed that sulfite can be caused to precipitate from a solution of a small amount (say 5%) sodium sulfite and adding to it a large amount of potassium carbonate. It's difficult to tell if the precipitate is potassium or sodium sulfite though in that case.
 
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grainyvision

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Here is a revised formula using only potassium salts. I'll wait a month to see if this also has precipitate problems and also evaluate aging before talking too much about it. Behavior should be identical to GVM1 in terms of development and photographic properties. Also is simple to mix without heat etc.

Note: 2% dimezone-S solution is quite annoying to make. I made it by stirring the glycol mixture at room temp for about 45 minutes. If you don't have a magnetic stirrer, I'd recommend putting everything into a bottle and shaking for 1m every 30m or so until all dissolved, likely over a day or two.

50% Potassium Metaborate solution synthesis instructions: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/sodium-metaborate-from-borax-and-lye.29779/page-2#post-2500019

GVM1.2 Formula:
* To make 100ml concentrate
* 50ml distilled water
* 16ml potassium sulfite 45%
* 6ml 50% potassium metaborate solution
* 18g potassium carbonate
* Stir until completely dissolved and clear
* 3.6g glycin. Make a slurry, will not dissolve
* 17ml Dimezone-S 2% in propylene glycol solution
* Top to 100ml with distilled water (~5ml additional water)
 

ruilourosa

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Metanol or isopropanol are good for diluting phenidone.
Glycol should be heated.
 
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grainyvision

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Metanol or isopropanol are good for diluting phenidone.
Glycol should be heated.
Unsure about metanol, but phenidone is not stable in isopropanol. Unsure why you believe glycol must be heated? Heating definitely speeds up things, but is by no means necessary if you are patient. With constant stirring it took me 45m to make a 2% solution at about 80F (I heated only briefly to take the chill off). I like glycol because I can make 100ml of stock solution and it is stable for months or maybe even years, which is not the case with isopropyl or ethanol

If you just want to see if dimezone/glycin has any advantage over metol/glycin it would be a lot easier to just replace metol by about 1/10th its weight of dimezone-s [dissolves easily in a small amount of isopropanol].
https://web.archive.org/web/20040421084832/http://jackspcs.com/fx2.htm
By the present procedure you will never know.
I mean the real question is if metol/glycin has any advantage over dimezone/glycin? heh. I'm unsure why waste time making the mixture and running tests, also it would definitely require less concentration since metol is not greatly soluble in water nor glycol for the comparatively large amount required.

Regardless, I used GVM1.2 in a confirmation test using FP4+, developed at 70F for 12m. It produced identical looking density and the same ISO 200 speed result. I also processed some double-xx out of curiosity in the same tank which had a really nice looking result at either ISO 500 or 1000. Unsure which is better, waiting on it to dry to scan it. Basically GVM1.2 appears to behave identical to GVM1.1
 

ruilourosa

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Just before adding to te formulation you dissolve phenidone in a bit of methanol or isopropanol.
I have been using gainer (very simple) formultions like pc-glycol and others... for around 15 years Heating glycol just speeds things up. I am patient to te point of making silver emulsions at home without magnetic stirrer... But 45m for that...

You aim for a concentrate... But that should be the last of your worries... Just try water first... And working solutions...


Metol has plenty of solubility for whats needed...
 
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