This comparison between the cost of using film or digital has so many parameters that it is difficult to get a real answer.
I don't think that the existing user base can do this. Kodak needs new customers and they're out there. But will the young enthusiasts buy the much more expensive Kodak product or choose competition, or even those funky lomo films - time will tell.
My hunch is that coming from digital perfection they're probably into the funky side of things.
I like this quote:
"Our priorities for 2022 included providing our customers with uninterrupted supplies, reducing costs by improving operational efficiency and implementing pricing actions to realize the value of our offerings, which contributed to a year-over-year increase in gross profit for the fourth quarter."
So they 1) streamlined the production, made it cheaper to make film; 2) had problems keeping stock in stores; 3) experienced nice profit; 4) are looking for the max price customer is wanting to pay for Kodak film.
I, however, don't see Kodak sharing these savings with customer. Price increase for existing products is what we got instead.
So I truly don't know if growing market can make prices cheaper in this reality.
But overall if anyone tells you that Digital is cheaper they are living in cloud cuckoo land
I don't think that the existing user base can do this. Kodak needs new customers and they're out there. But will the young enthusiasts buy the much more expensive Kodak product or choose competition, or even those funky lomo films - time will tell.
My hunch is that coming from digital perfection they're probably into the funky side of things.
I like this quote:
"Our priorities for 2022 included providing our customers with uninterrupted supplies, reducing costs by improving operational efficiency and implementing pricing actions to realize the value of our offerings, which contributed to a year-over-year increase in gross profit for the fourth quarter."
So they 1) streamlined the production, made it cheaper to make film; 2) had problems keeping stock in stores; 3) experienced nice profit; 4) are looking for the max price customer is wanting to pay for Kodak film.
I, however, don't see Kodak sharing these savings with customer. Price increase for existing products is what we got instead.
So I truly don't know if growing market can make prices cheaper in this reality.
I don't think that the existing user base can do this. Kodak needs new customers and they're out there. But will the young enthusiasts buy the much more expensive Kodak product or choose competition, or even those funky lomo films - time will tell.
My hunch is that coming from digital perfection they're probably into the funky side of things.
I like this quote:
"Our priorities for 2022 included providing our customers with uninterrupted supplies, reducing costs by improving operational efficiency and implementing pricing actions to realize the value of our offerings, which contributed to a year-over-year increase in gross profit for the fourth quarter."
So they 1) streamlined the production, made it cheaper to make film; 2) had problems keeping stock in stores; 3) experienced nice profit; 4) are looking for the max price customer is wanting to pay for Kodak film.
I, however, don't see Kodak sharing these savings with customer. Price increase for existing products is what we got instead.
So I truly don't know if growing market can make prices cheaper in this reality.
Why film prices have risen and whether they will continue to do so is not as important about what you/we can do to weather the situation. We can talk about it, we can suggest that younger people shoot film, and maybe shoot more/less ourselves, but, IMO, that does little about the price or availability. What do we do as individuals to ensure that we can continue to enjoy the hobby? It really comes down to maximizing income and controlling spending on other things, a more interesting topic.
I’d say this analysis is spot-on.This comparison between the cost of using film or digital has so many parameters that it is difficult to get a real answer. When digital came to be 'reasonable' pricewise, I went and bought a Minolta (yes it was that long ago) I cannot remember the model name but it was good - very good and could print up to A3 with care. Then there was this Sony Bridge camera that lasted abut 2 months because the lens was so flaming bad I got rid of it a bit sharpish.
This was followed by a Nikon D100, D200, D300, D90 D700 D600, D800, so on and so forth each was an improvement (?) on the one before, not that my pictures took the the vast strides forward that were promised!
Add on the cost of the ancillaries. More of this, more of that, I am sure I don't need to translate what I mean. Adobe Photoshop with regular upgrades also came into play and increased the cost. Then thinking about my 1st printer an A4 Epson then an A3 Epson - I wore both of them out! Oh yes I was still using film too, so there was my Nikon scanner and a bigger flat screen VDU. Then a second one a few years later because the previous one failed Don't even begin to mention the cost of the inks/dyes paper (sorry they call it media now).
Then Microsoft played a dirty trick when they changed from Windows XP to Windows 7 Just after my computer died and I had to buy another, so my printer, graphics board and more importantly for me, my Nikon scanner stopped working, although I got around that to get it back working again by using an old XP laptop I got for next to nothing.
I shudder to think of the total amount of money I have spent in the last 20+ years on digital and the bits and pieces surrounding it to make it work. Don't kid your self there will be thousands out there like me
In the meantime my darkroom was operational ( and still is). My film cameras I confess I have a few - mostly NIkon's, it saves buying a multitude of lenses 'cos I can use most of them for digital as well ( Nikon FT3, F601 (I got that given) F80 F100, and the granddaddy of them all my Nikon F2a. Add this a Bronica SQa and a couple of lenses plus a couple of classic Minoltas and MC/MD lenses all bought before the price of film cameras started to skyrocket.
My enlarger is getting on for 35 years old (LPL7700) and only replaced the bulb once or twice. My Nova processor about the same age (one new heating element replaced about 15 years ago. My most 'recent' major expense was the Rodenstock 50mm 2.8 Apo lens I bought about 8 years ago. My Jobo film processor is well over 20 years old and I have another for spares)
They all work as well as the day they were made. The bonus is I have no worry that the printer will run out of ink (My Current Canon Pro300 where a full set of inks cost in excess of £155). Such is the use of the ink/Dye from a full set of new cartridges It will empty at least one in just 6 A3 prints.
Film cost with B&W is still manageable with cost if you buy in bulk, Colour C41 when you can get it, is a bit on the expensive side, but I have enough to be going on with in the fridge. As for E6 I have not used any for around 20 years. Chemicals I buy in larger quantities (A lot cheaper in the long run) and decant the concentrates out into smaller bottles so that extends their useful life. Printing paper, for colour I used to buy Kodak in rolls of 90feet x 12" which works out around 1/3rd of the cost of cut sheets, but that is now unobtainable. I could use Fuji but they will only sell 2 rolls at a time so I am now relegated to Fuji in cut sheets which I don't like.
But overall if anyone tells you that Digital is cheaper they are living in cloud cuckoo land. They are also missing the moment when it all comes together in the darkroom and we produce something really good by ourselves and not totally relying on electronics to do the job for us.
I think however, in the long run we will run out of options when the current level of good working film cameras will bring about the demise of film whether we like it or not. The camera manufacturers will not take the risk of making a new model in small runs of a camera of the quality of say a Nikon F4 or even a Pentax Spotmatic. Just look at the prices of the current range of Leicas will give you an idea.
Some very good analysis has been given. However it is an analysis that compares what we do with film and what we did with digital or would do with it if we switched back to it
My worry is that I fear that the vast majority of the world takes pictures for nothing via iphones that seem to be getting a lot better at taking photos and meet the needs of your average snapper who used to have to use a camera and film
Takes pictures for nothing? Yes, unfortunately, as the pics are looked at, sent out and shared then filed away on the iphone which is essential for almost everyone to have and almost everyone does. Few if any are made into prints
Will we ever see anything like a return to film that will maintain film processing and paper prices, let alone reduce the cost in real disposable income terms?
I fear not
pentaxuser
I don't think that the existing user base can do this. Kodak needs new customers and they're out there. But will the young enthusiasts buy the much more expensive Kodak product or choose competition, or even those funky lomo films - time will tell.
My hunch is that coming from digital perfection they're probably into the funky side of things.
I like this quote:
"Our priorities for 2022 included providing our customers with uninterrupted supplies, reducing costs by improving operational efficiency and implementing pricing actions to realize the value of our offerings, which contributed to a year-over-year increase in gross profit for the fourth quarter."
So they 1) streamlined the production, made it cheaper to make film; 2) had problems keeping stock in stores; 3) experienced nice profit; 4) are looking for the max price customer is wanting to pay for Kodak film.
I, however, don't see Kodak sharing these savings with customer. Price increase for existing products is what we got instead.
So I truly don't know if growing market can make prices cheaper in this reality.
... are you really certain of that or just making conversation. All of the Kodak film I've been seeking is out of stock, and has been for a while...
Not really because I don't use any. If you are not a Pro then 8x10 seems to be a bit of an overkill, don't you think so?
What I have noticed at the major EU retailers for several years now, is that cheap Kodak C41 films are usually out of stock. Ektar and the Portras are almost always in stock. I think we can conclude what sells more or not.
Since you develop your own black & white film you know that the cost of stop bath with indicator and PhotoFlo are just so damned expensive!
yes it was the cost of stopbath that forced me out of photography.
i shoot film and digital because I enjoy them both. Not sure how much I spend on either but if money becomes tight I watc h my spending. I think my wife's coke habit (Coke Zero not the white powder) is more expensive .
I believe Eastman Business Park is where they make Kodak film. So the report doesn't seem to include financial figures regarding their film sales.
Maybe Matt or others have more information on where you can find Kodak's film business statistics?
I’d say this analysis is spot-on.
I’m afraid what I’ve done could be described as entrenching, and little or no help to the future of film. I saw the general switch to digital coming, and bought the camera I wanted when the prices were not exactly low but at least stable for a spell. I built a darkroom and bought enough film and second-hand darkroom utensils to see me out. Now I’m dependent only on buying paper and some chemicals.
The obvious advantage of film is that once you’ve bought into good optics and a camera body that holds the film flat, technical upgrades are done just by loading a new film. IMO the best help manufacturers could give to cater for everyone would be to create cameras in which alternative digital and film backs (which should be vastly different in price) could be attached to a body housing the elements common to both. I expect @Sirius Glass will tell us it’s called a Hasselblad, but we need it in 35mm too!
This comparison between the cost of using film or digital has so many parameters that it is difficult to get a real answer. When digital came to be 'reasonable' pricewise, I went and bought a Minolta (yes it was that long ago) I cannot remember the model name but it was good - very good and could print up to A3 with care. Then there was this Sony Bridge camera that lasted abut 2 months because the lens was so flaming bad I got rid of it a bit sharpish.
This was followed by a Nikon D100, D200, D300, D90 D700 D600, D800, so on and so forth each was an improvement (?) on the one before, not that my pictures took the the vast strides forward that were promised!
Add on the cost of the ancillaries. More of this, more of that, I am sure I don't need to translate what I mean. Adobe Photoshop with regular upgrades also came into play and increased the cost. Then thinking about my 1st printer an A4 Epson then an A3 Epson - I wore both of them out! Oh yes I was still using film too, so there was my Nikon scanner and a bigger flat screen VDU. Then a second one a few years later because the previous one failed Don't even begin to mention the cost of the inks/dyes paper (sorry they call it media now).
Then Microsoft played a dirty trick when they changed from Windows XP to Windows 7 Just after my computer died and I had to buy another, so my printer, graphics board and more importantly for me, my Nikon scanner stopped working, although I got around that to get it back working again by using an old XP laptop I got for next to nothing.
I shudder to think of the total amount of money I have spent in the last 20+ years on digital and the bits and pieces surrounding it to make it work. Don't kid your self there will be thousands out there like me
In the meantime my darkroom was operational ( and still is). My film cameras I confess I have a few - mostly NIkon's, it saves buying a multitude of lenses 'cos I can use most of them for digital as well ( Nikon FT3, F601 (I got that given) F80 F100, and the granddaddy of them all my Nikon F2a. Add this a Bronica SQa and a couple of lenses plus a couple of classic Minoltas and MC/MD lenses all bought before the price of film cameras started to skyrocket.
My enlarger is getting on for 35 years old (LPL7700) and only replaced the bulb once or twice. My Nova processor about the same age (one new heating element replaced about 15 years ago. My most 'recent' major expense was the Rodenstock 50mm 2.8 Apo lens I bought about 8 years ago. My Jobo film processor is well over 20 years old and I have another for spares)
They all work as well as the day they were made. The bonus is I have no worry that the printer will run out of ink (My Current Canon Pro300 where a full set of inks cost in excess of £155). Such is the use of the ink/Dye from a full set of new cartridges It will empty at least one in just 6 A3 prints.
Film cost with B&W is still manageable with cost if you buy in bulk, Colour C41 when you can get it, is a bit on the expensive side, but I have enough to be going on with in the fridge. As for E6 I have not used any for around 20 years. Chemicals I buy in larger quantities (A lot cheaper in the long run) and decant the concentrates out into smaller bottles so that extends their useful life. Printing paper, for colour I used to buy Kodak in rolls of 90feet x 12" which works out around 1/3rd of the cost of cut sheets, but that is now unobtainable. I could use Fuji but they will only sell 2 rolls at a time so I am now relegated to Fuji in cut sheets which I don't like.
But overall if anyone tells you that Digital is cheaper they are living in cloud cuckoo land. They are also missing the moment when it all comes together in the darkroom and we produce something really good by ourselves and not totally relying on electronics to do the job for us.
I think however, in the long run we will run out of options when the current level of good working film cameras will bring about the demise of film whether we like it or not. The camera manufacturers will not take the risk of making a new model in small runs of a camera of the quality of say a Nikon F4 or even a Pentax Spotmatic. Just look at the prices of the current range of Leicas will give you an idea.
... are you really certain of that or just making conversation. All of the Kodak film I've been seeking is out of stock, and has been for a while...
What I have noticed at the major EU retailers for several years now, is that cheap Kodak C41 films are usually out of stock. Ektar and the Portras are almost always in stock. I think we can conclude what sells more or not.
This was followed by a Nikon D100, D200, D300, D90 D700 D600, D800, so on and so forth each was an improvement (?) on the one before, not that my pictures took the the vast strides forward that were promised!
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