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The end for Kodak?

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The most likely scenario is chapter 11 within a few weeks, followed by reorganization as a smaller company, followed by one or more additional bankruptcies, eventually ending in chapter 7 (liquidation).

Let's hope for another outcome. The miracle in all this is that the company has lasted so long in the face of a catastrophic loss of market for their main product.
 
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Sorry to be so brash, but don't crap on the thread then your self, maybe?

You and I want to shoot high quality film? We both need to A. Fight for it. B. Either through our own work or through the promoting of others, show great film images on sites that are far more film specific than Flickr and are more along the lines of this one.

You can take it anyway you want, but I think it is high time things change in the way the film versus digital argument is presented.


O b
Kodachrome Project, right...

So we scan negs and trans and post them here. Flickr already contains zillions of film shots--some great, most not like much of Flickr content.

"Uninformed and negative" is a remarkable charge. You don't have a clue what I do to promote film locally. I was on photonet for years and never critiqued because I never posted. You seem to have been very busy there posting images. Did you help out in the forums? Your choice--and mine.

APUG probably works best by connecting film shooters locally. We often help former film shooters get back to reality; we know the local ecology of labs, services, and shops and share information they otherwise would miss. That works for me and seems to work for others. I live way more of my life in public than online and prefer it that way.

If you feel mobilizing interest in film is best served by posting images, then rock on. But don't crap on people you don't know, doing things elsewhere, who don't work for a shared interest the same way you do.
 
Even Mom & Pop photo labs clinging to a core market may feel the repercussions from this if they need to buy a refurbished Fuji Frontier on credit and such.

We've already seen this happen once. Around 2003, when digital came along in the form of the Canon 10D (which ROCKED) and Nikon D100 (which SUCKED), the mom and pop wedding and portrait labs imploded within about a year. Their business model was, take the film from the photographer, process it, proof it, make enlargements. All of the sudden, wedding photographers were using an inexpensive 6MP camera that equalled (more or less) the quality of a Hasselblad.

Now, even if you loved your Medium Format, the advantage of a $1500 digital camera over a $20 roll of process and proof 120 was obvious: no cost of sales (except for labor, which has to be included in either equation but which digital photographers seem somehow willing to absorb without compensation). You could make 100 photos as easily and at far less cost than you could make 10. Don't like them? Hit the delete key.

So four layers of profit for the Mom and Pop portrait and wedding labs vaporized: film sales; film processing; proof printing; and, ultimately, enlargements. Their whole business model vanished inside of a year. In 1992 Atlanta, there were four color labs less than 10 miles from my house. By 1994, they were all gone. There were many, many more around Atlanta, all gone, too.

Today, Atlanta has lost pretty much all of our analog shops. The only player left in E6 is on 10th street, and they are closed on Fridays! All the various other print shops either merged or went bankrupt. Showcase Photo/Video near my studio hardly stocks 120 anymore. I complained and they said no one's buying it.

A few places now specialize in large format inkjet, but even that is getting extremely competitive and they are dropping like flies. And this is in a very large metropolitan area. Woe be unto you if you live in a small town, like John Cougar Mellancamp.

Photography is -- through digital -- becoming increasingly decentralized. All you need is a camera and a computer. You can buy a $500 Canon pigment printer that can print on a Baryta paper and knock your socks off. I love me some film, but I don't make money with film, I make money with digital. That's the bottom line.

I mean, if you can't get film, you can always shoot wet plates! They can't take that away from you.
 
Sorry to be so brash, but don't crap on the thread then your self, maybe?

You and I want to shoot high quality film? We both need to A. Fight for it. B. Either through our own work or through the promoting of others, show great film images on sites that are far more film specific than Flickr and are more along the lines of this one.

You can take it anyway you want, but I think it is high time things change in the way the film versus digital argument is presented.

There is no film vs. digital.

Film lost. Digital won. The baton has been passed to the progeny.

The web's standard downsampled scans cannot create a comparative environment, and frankly, a lot of digital output is superior. There is pretty much no objective way to say: "See. This is film and it is better than digital." You have to ask how many digital users really care and would even migrate to such a comparison. Not near enough to make a market difference. Flickr is awash with groups trying to do just that. You'd be howling into a hurricane. There is no outcry of consumer angst over the quality of digital output driving people to such comparisons. In fact, quite the opposite as the sales numbers show. The vast majority of people worldwide do digital because they prefer it. Period. All the technocrats in the analog side, bitter and all, are not going to change that.

Frankly, the key to film's survival is to not fight against digital. It is to accompany it. Lomography, parasitic as it is, has the right idea. Film is quirky, imperfect, subjective, stereotyped, nostalgic, humbling, slow, analog, limiting, unique, frustrating, archival, surprising, disappointing, and fun. To get where film can go unpredictably, digital requires hours of Photoshop or a Hipstamatic code driven by impersonal, third-party algorithms. It's the fast food of creativity. Digital can be very sterile, if technically precise. Film is uniquely stylistic and constraining in a manner that can liberate: "Well, I've only got Tri-X!". Digital often is a lot of silly work. Film can, if done right, offer a different, less perfect path that is more alchemy and Romantic than yet another session in front of a screen. "You press the button, we do the rest" is exactly what a lot of consumers need these days, albeit affordably. Film has the opportunity to be the thoughtful, philosophical kin of digital, whose muscular presence will from now on be the market norm, and overwhelmingly so as analog fades into a almost a sect-like niche. In the vast world of horticulture, film could be the equivalent of all those people who love orchids.

The binary superior vs. inferior argument plays to digital's strength, not its weaknesses. Where film advocates absolutely lose the argument and the interest of consumers is where there is a qualitative comparison to digital, because that is an argument film will always lose, especially as digital continues to evolve. Digital is only just starting to realize its full potential as an image capture system, and that's a horse film cannot catch. So analog film's other strengths must become core to the marketing. George Eastman had it right decades ago.

The caveat is that film cannot exist without a certain volume of production and economy of scale, without which it disappears completely. This applies to both the cameras and the film inside, and an economical way of processing those images and getting them in multiple ways into the hands of consumers looking for the difference film offers. My concern is I have yet to see a comprehensive plan to make that where both he right and left brain arguments coalesce into a financially viable market structure. The vision and the money are not paired and I am afraid that the path may only be known in hindsight because people are fighting long lost battles in the present. By then the factories are shuttered and no one is willing to risk reviving analog.

Maybe Ilford can struggle along for 20 years on refurbished AE-1's, but I doubt it. I would not extend credit to that company unless I saw their plan to re-capitalize the installed roll and cartridge film camera base as it suffers from the inevitable entropy all mechanical products are subject to.
 
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Gosh. Hasn't enough been said? Why not just give your opinion, once and with clarity, and let it be?

Move along folks, nothing left to see here :smile:

In honor of Mother Kodak, I just purchased 2 fifty sheet boxes of tx320, upon the latest news, but had to go to Adorama to do it, nothing ever to be found local. Buy more film, type less.

Good read,
Lee
 
Problem is if Kodak goes down.

What's going to happen to Kodak Australia, and Kodak insertcountryhere. They bring in the film and most importantly, chemistry, for local purchase.

Also, how will they be able to trade the film and chemistry under Kodak's label? (ie: Agfa).
 
Sincerely hope that Kodak can hang on until Oct 3rd, 2013 so I can write a sardonic reply to this classic photo.net post from 2003:

"I firmly believe that film will indeed disappear for all intents and purposes within this decade (if a roll of Tri-X costs $49.95, who is *really* going to buy it?)" [...] "Whether there will be any film available by 2010 or not isn't worth debating, the cost will be extraordinarily high [...] it will in fact be only the affluent collector who will find film affordable"

http://photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/006969?start=10

The long death of film (always understood as the death of Kodak) is a phenomenon in itself, some people would give an arm to extent their life by as long as film has died. Premature mourning is never a good thing. I for one will miss the darkroom but we're not there yet, maybe I'll get bored and give up long before the death or maybe I will die first. Who knows. I'll probably take up drawing - can't create art through this lame computer, it would be like making love to your partner whilst wearing work clothes, an intolerable merging of two separate worlds: work and play. Besides, I don't think film and digital are analogous. The presence of a lens seems to be the only marrying factor but I could write a poem while wearing glasses and create art with a lens. Cooking has more in common with its obsession with time and cumulative stages. Artistic urges will always find a channel. However, I'm rather pleased with how my photos look during this long death of film, I can't say that the morbid obsession some people have with envisioning the approaching chill has tempered my printing.
 
Problem is if Kodak goes down.

What's going to happen to Kodak Australia, and Kodak insertcountryhere. They bring in the film and most importantly, chemistry, for local purchase.

Also, how will they be able to trade the film and chemistry under Kodak's label? (ie: Agfa).

Well Kodak out sourced it's import and distribution in the UK a few years ago to a company called Sangers. The load was too much for them and they went bust. Now a new company formed by people from the old Kodak Import/Distribution division in the UK provides a far more efficient service.

One of Kodaks problems has been that they messed up the restructuring of import/distribution in many parts of the world as a consequence losing sales to competitors.

Ian
 
Anyone looking to take over the Kodak b&w film business will have their work cut out, that's for sure. First thing is, take a look at the competition. True, Fuji film has been dropping like flies (goodbye SS & NP1600) but most likely they'll carry on with NP400 & Acros (they are Fujifilm after all). Then there's Ilford offering a large range of film and paper as well as other European producers such as Foma & Efke not to mention Lucky in China. And you're going to turn this thing round on a dime in the middle of a recession (depression?). Personally I doubt it.

The NP400 is discontinued also...
 
It's wrong to characterise Kodak's problem as being 'dragged down' by their reliance on film. As I understand it, Kodak - probably better than most - recognised the imminent end of the film market and sought to adapt themselves to survive by downsizing their film operation rapidly and in a reasonably orderly manner which is why they can still make a small operating profit from it. Their problem is that they haven't been able to transfer their commanding position in analogue imaging - which has evaporated along with the mass-market for film - into the digital market. For all the doomsaying, I suspect there will always be a small, specialised but potentially profitable market for film products, and in some form or other, Kodak's film division may well be part of it.
 
It's wrong to characterise Kodak's problem as being 'dragged down' by their reliance on film. As I understand it, Kodak - probably better than most - recognised the imminent end of the film market and sought to adapt themselves to survive by downsizing their film operation rapidly and in a reasonably orderly manner which is why they can still make a small operating profit from it. Their problem is that they haven't been able to transfer their commanding position in analogue imaging - which has evaporated along with the mass-market for film - into the digital market. For all the doomsaying, I suspect there will always be a small, specialised but potentially profitable market for film products, and in some form or other, Kodak's film division may well be part of it.

+1
 
I bought 7 boxes of 4x5 TMY yesterday in a knee-jerk response to this thread 8^)...EC
 
Film won't die if we do not stop to use it. This is very simple. I remember some years ago when Ilford, Agfa and Forte went to bankruptcy, there where discussions that B&W fotography is dying. Now we know, this wouldn't be. There is enough demand to produce film, you just have to talk to people of Adox or Fotokemika, they will confirm that. The problem of companies like Kodak or Fuji is, that if they just switch on their coating machines, they will produce much to much film for a niche market - they are simply too big. Analogue photography can not and should not compete to digital photography, it is a different kind of photography and this is the point.

In my country we see that the use of color neg. films used by hobby foto enthusiasts like most of us are is increasing and not decreasing! But on the other side the mass market is falling down towards 0, because the mass market is digital. So the companies have to produce films in small scale production for photo enthusiasts like we are - this is the future and there is enough demand. So it's time for companies like Adox or efke, who are able to coat small charges of film. It would be great if we can save Kodaks Portra Films and the Ektar, but this will only be possible if Kodak or another company which buys the assets, uses small machines to produce small charges.

I'm sure that we will have film in the future, just don't stop using it.
 
The beauty, for us, about kodak being too big and having to produce too many films is the pruce.
Altough rather high, presently, imagine how much it will cost once a company will produce strictly to answer the demand. The roll will have to be somewhere around 15$, whuch will in turn kill the market.

Let's nkt forget: there is a market for film at current prices, thanks to Kodak for over producing.

By following my logic, I realize that if Kodak dies, the whole market will die. I'm not sure I'll want to pay 15$ a roll. And I'm a die-hard!
 
I should stop reading this thread as it makes me want to cry, laugh my butt off and punch somebody in the face all at once....

Instead of stopping reading keep shooting film (as most of us are doing). I'm pretty sure the demand for film is still good. Think of the 120 size films. Why should companies like Efke,Foma,Ilford,Rollei keep producing them ? Simply because they get a profit from this (niche) business. My humble opinion is that we should foster the analog culture among young generations in order not to make analog photography die.
Keep shooting.
Ciao
 
I should stop reading this thread as it makes me want to cry, laugh my butt off and punch somebody in the face all at once....

Three of the most basic human emotions at once and all for free. A method acting school would charge a fortune to be able to teach you how to achieve this :D

pentaxuser
 
The beauty, for us, about kodak being too big and having to produce too many films is the pruce.
Altough rather high, presently, imagine how much it will cost once a company will produce strictly to answer the demand. The roll will have to be somewhere around 15$, whuch will in turn kill the market.
What a load of "§$%&. Ilford does not overproduce, has an excellent palette of B&W film stock yet their rolls don't cost much more than Kodak's, in some countries even less.
Let's nkt forget: there is a market for film at current prices, thanks to Kodak for over producing.
Film prices have gone up substantially for US folks yet the demand for photographic film stays flat - and that in the face of a double dip recession.
By following my logic, I realize that if Kodak dies, the whole market will die.
By following your logic, I realize that if I die, the whole field of photography dies :laugh:
 
I bought 7 boxes of 4x5 TMY yesterday in a knee-jerk response to this thread 8^)...EC

Ha! I ordered 30 each of Tmax 400 and Tri-X in 120 to add to my already decent frozen supply!
 
Compared to the average income or the value of money the prices for films today are still cheaper than 20 years ago. So a higher price won't kill the market.

And companies like Adox or efke are profitable and can make films on a small scale basis.
 
Compared to the average income or the value of money the prices for films today are still cheaper than 20 years ago. So a higher price won't kill the market.

And companies like Adox or efke are profitable and can make films on a small scale basis.

Of course it will. Think about it for a moment. 20 years ago there was no low-cost substitute. And as soon as the substitute became available it caused enormous damage to the film market, causing the prices to go down.
And once you get to the point of having less and less choice, the most normal thing happens: price goes up.

That's economy 101, mon cher.
 
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