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The end for Kodak?

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I wonder how the owner of the site feels about this ongoing thread practically owned by Aristophanes and his never ending call for doom, practically calling out for the death of the site as well?

Since first posting on this thread, I have shot a roll of Tri-X for a magazine article, sold two images for a book and had two meetings with this well funded art center in regards to bringing a darkroom workshop into the fray for at risk kids: http://thirdstreetcenter.net/

I just can't effing believe how ineffective this site is in the promotion of both great images made in the analog medium and being a true champion for getting the word out about film. This is beyond frustrating and because of people like the aforementioned, this site is just not worth being a part of anymore in terms of dialog. I will just come hear like many do, find a quick tech solution, not post and just get out and make great photographs happen, regardless of medium.

If "dialog" in your definition amounts to insults and bitch slaps to total strangers who don't share your views, then I guess APUG just isn't the place. Surprise! There's no party line here. Oh, by the way, I found this a bit troubling: "...just get out and make great photographs happen, regardless of medium." OMG, do you shoot<<gulp>>digital?!

Happy you're keeping your hands busy.
 
Originally Posted by PKM-25
I will just come hear like many do, find a quick tech solution, not post and just get out and make great photographs happen, regardless of medium.
The way I understand you should thank APUG for all the technical answers that put money in your pocket rather than bashing this forum. As someone said main scope of APUG is not to promote film. Have you considered becoming a subscriber for APUG so you can actually feel that you contribute to the film community or it is just taking advantage?
 
1) Olympus' scandal has little impact on a high-growth industry. Others can step in. Kodak's demise puts a giant question market on exactly how much demand there is for film of any kind, especially in the long term.
Why would there suddenly be a question mark? At the moment photographic film seems to have stabilized at a low level while movie film is in steep decline. Kodaks film unit has been mostly profitable throughout the last ten years, while their digital branch wasted money quarter after quarter.
2) Enron did blow up the power market. Certainly in California. I am a bond analyst. That was downright ugly, and the lawsuits are still ongoing at enormous cost to all ratepayers in many states. Enron's demise and lack of diligence all around exacted a huge toll on consumers, and still does.
3) Kodak going south means that extending credit to all other film suppliers becomes an issue because the central point is the enormous erosion of demand for emulsion products worldwide. Instead of credit and financing being offered mostly on the financials of the supplier, analysts will be looking at the underlying customer base of the product. This could apply to the company making parts for Fuji processing machines to suppliers of emulsion chemicals to distribution wholesalers. If Kodak has to pay cash up front to get its film products on the shelf, then that could very well spread to everyone in the market.
So which other major power company went bust shortly after the Enron thing or as a consequence thereof? No reasonable investor thinks photographic film has a huge growth potential right now, so the demise of Kodak won't even create shock waves like Lehman or Enron. I just don't see that bunch of investors scratching their head "we would have never thought this digital fad would catch on" ...
4) Yes, the whole question about the survival of roll and cartridge film will reside with the ability to manage small volumes with adequate QC.
Cutting film to rolls is trivial compared to proper coating. You should rephrase this as "4) Yes, the whole question about the survival of coated film stock will reside with the ability to manage small volumes with adequate QC." And while it is quite popular here to rag on Foma/Adox/Efke here in this forum, a lot of people seem to be happy with their products, especially in larger formats. In a few years a lot of Kodak's film patents are due to expire so we could suddenly see a hike in film performance from former low cost vendors.
5) Doom and gloom is a function of economics and business. Where there's risk, there's doom.
If you want to beat the market consistently you will have to separate the wheat from the chaff. Omnidirectional doom&gloom panic in the face of a little risk won't do much good.
6) My major concern when looking at film production and the transfer of assets to someone other than Kodak is the entropy in the camera market. Basically any takeover of the Kodak's operations is like taking over a car part manufacturer for 1980's vehicles. This applies to Ilford as well as Fuji. At a certain point--when it is not known--the suppliers of credit and financing are going to ask where the new customers are, and where they are getting their equipment to load your emulsion product in. Like all creditors they may need more certainty that eBay sales volumes and flea markets. No supply of cameras could lead to a contraction ins the supply of credit and operational funds for film manufacturers. Prices rise, more customer leave as a result, and so on. That's the threat.
Unlike digital cameras, you don't have to buy a new analog camera every two or three years, so analog camera sales are a lot less relevant to film sales than you make it look. I own and use three analog cameras right now, none of them was bought new. I bought my last new camera 25 years ago, yet I still go through a lot of film every year.
 
I just can't effing believe how ineffective this site is in the promotion of both great images made in the analog medium and being a true champion for getting the word out about film. This is beyond frustrating and because of people like the aforementioned, this site is just not worth being a part of anymore in terms of dialog. I will just come hear like many do, find a quick tech solution, not post and just get out and make great photographs happen, regardless of medium.

Well, the name does stand for Analog Photography Users Group, not Analog Photography Promotional Association. I don't really see it as the responsibility of APUG to be "a true champion for getting the word out about film". Actually, I'm not sure I see where APUG has any responsibilities at all beyond providing a medium for those of us using film to talk shop.

I don't like the one-note doom-and-gloom discussions very much either, but it's not like the site consists entirely of them. You can always quit reading this thread and go discuss something you find more edifying. Pop over to the b&w forum and help holmburgers figure out why his Efke 100 sheets have thin highlights, tell me how to get my Impossible Project film to behave better, sell a lens you're not using, whatever.

-NT
 
I see no documentation that film is profitable for Kodak, nor has been for the last 5 years. Their financials statements all say otherwise, as does the demolition of the facilities as they race to downsize. I see no signs of stabilization, just decline.

Real asset destruction is a loss of money and capital. Always. the decline of film sales is what killed Kodak on the balance sheet. There was no way management could have stopped that trend. What they did botch was management of their original digital lead.

Investors and creditors of emulsion production will be afraid to our good money after bad, especially where there is consumer market uncertainty.

If colour film goes away, a lot of analog shooters will too. That will impact B&W sales from any source. A smaller aggregate market will increase prices substantially. This bodes poorly for a very small player like Ilford.

It is very difficult to say if Kodak goes away other suppliers will step in. That may not be the case because there needs to be capital investment to do so and without a visible market bottom money will be reluctant.

You don't have to buy a new digital camera either. That's your version of doom and gloom. There are certain economic advantages to digital in that every shot after original purchase gets less expensive and with analog it gets more expensive. And the dominant history of film cameras is of near-throwaway models. Refinancing Kodak's emulsion facilities for a market using 20 year-old cameras bought and sold off auction sites is going to raise question marks by anyone financing the Kodak leftovers. The credit will be short term, very expensive, and collateralized. That's a tough sell.

*You* may go through a lot of film, but the market may require more proof that if you get hit by a bus there's someone to fill your shoes. Investors need to see the customer not yet on the horizon. A declining overall demand and no means to stabilize demand with new products (Lomo gets it correct) is the problem, both for analog film and MP film.

There are means to stabilize the market or carve out analog film as a niche, but the effort will have to be comprehensive and the backer of deep pockets. The dumbest thing anyone can do is imagine that film will ever compete with digital on quality or convenience. It cannot. Down that path lies marketing ruin. analog film requires its own market space unique to it, not burdened down with unwinnable arguments about superiority. Nostalgia and culture sell. That's the leverage.
 
I see no documentation that film is profitable for Kodak, nor has been for the last 5 years. Their financials statements all say otherwise, as does the demolition of the facilities as they race to downsize. I see no signs of stabilization, just decline.

We must assume you can't read then as the coating division has always been profitable ven in a shrinking market.

Where you may be confused is asuming the coating division is capable of stemming the rest of the companies losses and the very high salaries and bonuses of the directors.

Just how bonuses relate to losses is only understandable to those recieving them not the rest of the world.

Ian
 
Well, here's hoping Ian's right!

We all need diversity and choice, unfortunately as individuals it's impossible to support all companies.

There's anti Kodak sentiment but that's againsta Kodak as a whole for their mismanagement and not the coating division. I can only speak from my own experiences and when I couldn't find Kodak B&W films I switched back to Ilford with Foma as my fall back, that choice was made by Kodak themselves not having materials on dealers shelves. It's that simple.

Ian
 
Has another mole infiltrated? Aristophanes - I agree with quite a few of your points, but digitial hasn't even begun to be able to replace color film for quality - not for portrait applications, and certainly not for large-format film and printing applications. Even if something gets digtially printed,
the optimized results are going to be way better and more manageable from a LF scan than from
anything direct capture. Maybe run-of-the-mill stock photography and magazine spreads can use
DLSR results, but certainly not all of us find it a realistic alternative. Then there's the cost thing.
Traditional enlargement is way, way cheaper overall to output. Worldwide there's probably
sufficient demand for somebody to remain in color neg film mfg; and for the time being,
Fuji is still solidly behind chrome film. Recapitalizing as a startup is indeed another matter. And the
long-term viability of black and white film is another issue altogether, because it's much easier to
manufacture than color. Pricing will always be affected by silver, gelatin, petrochemicals behind filmbase, etc.
But suggesting that film in general will all unravel just doesn't add up. And right now there are plenty
folks interested in some kind of darkroom work. Cumulatively, that will keep somone in business making the necessary supplies.
 
'But suggesting that film in general will all unravel just doesn't add up. And right now there are plenty
folks interested in some kind of darkroom work. Cumulatively, that will keep somone in business making the necessary supplies.'


Right...The earth probably does look flat from where you're standing, too. Same old denial and magical thinking. Sorry!
 
My mistake ... thought I was on APUG, but obviously stumbled onto the cell-phone-camera forum.
Just where do you think commercial display photography is going to come from if high-end output options are going extinct? And just how many times do you think studios are going to amortize new
equipment outlays every five years? Right now I'm about to coach a studio photographer in large
format FILM use because he can't deliver competitive quality digitally. And believe me, this ain't the
flat part of the earth - I'm right smack dab in the heart of the tech empire, and I grew up right smack on the second deepest canyon on the continent. Flatlander I'm not. You'd be amazed at how
many Silicon Valley types on the trail ask to look under my darkcloth and with they had darkrooms
of their own. They guys who invent this stuff still know the difference, even if some of the moles
inflitrating this forum don't. Change is inevitable, but everything digital will change too, and probably
a lot faster. We'll see what goes extinct first.
 
I see no documentation that film is profitable for Kodak, nor has been for the last 5 years. Their financials statements all say otherwise, as does the demolition of the facilities as they race to downsize. I see no signs of stabilization, just decline.
PE has commented extensively on the profitability, and he suggests money was shifted from the film division to the money losing digital branch to lower the overall tax burden. Tearing down excess facilities only means the market has declined, not that the remaining part loses money. And I have to remind you again: the current decline in film sales at Kodak comes from movie film, not photographic still film. Movie film, especially print film might well go away in the next few years, I don't know. The question is, whether one can make only color photographic film at the current volumes profitably. But still: Ilford, Foma, Adox and Efke couldn't care less about movie print film sales.
Real asset destruction is a loss of money and capital. Always. the decline of film sales is what killed Kodak on the balance sheet. There was no way management could have stopped that trend. What they did botch was management of their original digital lead.
Well, technically they could have used the excess money from their film branch to fund a proper downscale of their operations. As people here have already said, stock holders would have revolted against this because it would have devalued their stock. Well, look where this got them ....
Investors and creditors of emulsion production will be afraid to our good money after bad, especially where there is consumer market uncertainty.
And photographic film is the only uncertain market right now ....

Others have mentioned that Kodaks film business was mostly profitable even in the last 10 years. Kodak with its long time monopoly status used to be very generous when it came to worker compensation and retirement benefits, and they are paying dearly for this now. A chapter 11 might well release them from this burden and turn them into a quite profitable film business at 1/10 of their current size (or at their current size if the movie industry wants).

There will be investors who will invest in a profitable business and others who won't touch anything film related and rather invest in the next AAA rated pile of fertilizer (lots of growth potential here! ).
If colour film goes away, a lot of analog shooters will too. That will impact B&W sales from any source. A smaller aggregate market will increase prices substantially. This bodes poorly for a very small player like Ilford.
If the APUG forum is any indication, I'd say the vast majority of current analog shooters use mostly B&W. Ilford won't be harmed but rather see a boost if former users of Kodak's color offerings pour into the B&W market. If Kodak completely stops making B&W film, Ilford makes a close enough match for every Kodak B&W film (PlusX/FP4, TriX/HP5, TMax/Delta).
You don't have to buy a new digital camera either. That's your version of doom and gloom. There are certain economic advantages to digital in that every shot after original purchase gets less expensive and with analog it gets more expensive. And the dominant history of film cameras is of near-throwaway models. Refinancing Kodak's emulsion facilities for a market using 20 year-old cameras bought and sold off auction sites is going to raise question marks by anyone financing the Kodak leftovers. The credit will be short term, very expensive, and collateralized. That's a tough sell.
The near throwaway models have been thrown away by now or are (not) sold to collectors for 1$ a piece. Even photographic doofuses like me own high end professional cameras which would have been completely out of reach pipe dreams just 10 years ago, and these cameras will most likely be serviceable for decades to come.

There are a much more pressing dangers to Kodak's credit options: a huge unprofitable digital branch which can't even sell their patent portfolio for a reasonable price and the aforementioned burden from previous golden decades in the form of huge pension and health benefit liabilities.
*You* may go through a lot of film, but the market may require more proof that if you get hit by a bus there's someone to fill your shoes. Investors need to see the customer not yet on the horizon. A declining overall demand and no means to stabilize demand with new products (Lomo gets it correct) is the problem, both for analog film and MP film.
That bus hitting me might put a small dent in the film/chem/paper sales in my town but it's not going to put anyone out of business. Investors do see customers for Fuji, Ilford, Foma, Efke, Adox and others. If Kodak really goes away and if its product line gets chucked, I'd be somewhat afraid for color film, but B&W would rather thrive than wither.
 
My mistake ... thought I was on APUG, but obviously stumbled onto the cell-phone-camera forum.
Just where do you think commercial display photography is going to come from if high-end output options are going extinct? And just how many times do you think studios are going to amortize new
equipment outlays every five years? Right now I'm about to coach a studio photographer in large
format FILM use because he can't deliver competitive quality digitally. And believe me, this ain't the
flat part of the earth - I'm right smack dab in the heart of the tech empire, and I grew up right smack on the second deepest canyon on the continent. Flatlander I'm not. You'd be amazed at how
many Silicon Valley types on the trail ask to look under my darkcloth and with they had darkrooms
of their own. They guys who invent this stuff still know the difference, even if some of the moles
inflitrating this forum don't. Change is inevitable, but everything digital will change too, and probably
a lot faster. We'll see what goes extinct first.

Funny how the ad/editorial world seems to be getting along without film. People I'm acquainted are getting by nicely(i.e., profitably)without it.

Think you're suffering a wee bit of hypoxemia under that dark cloth.
 
I know people who hold digital photog patents who do their personal work on film for quality reasons
and not just for fun. Plenty of C-paper is still being sold. I can even walk into the local camera store
here and they've got stacks of Crystal Archive in the freezer and stacks of 4x5 color film in the refrig. The schools and UC teach with it. Commercial printers still use it. On the other hand, my friend
who does tabletop food photography with a Betterlight has only a finite time to get that serviced;
it is already defacto extinct, and there's no real substitute. Scanners are getting difficult to maintain. Large format color film still really has no practical substitute in the long run. But no, not
any flat earth around here, either topographically or intellectually. And we fine-art printers are pretty
small in volume compared to commercial display applications, which still demand good detail and color
reproduction, especially for cosmetics ads etc (big dollars). I don't have any crystal ball either, but
I suspect some version of high-end film will be around until there's a REAL digital substitute.
 
Funny how the ad/editorial world seems to be getting along without film. People I'm acquainted are getting by nicely(i.e., profitably)without it.
People apparently get by profitably with this kind of work, too. What does it prove, though?
Think you're suffering a wee bit of hypoxemia under that dark cloth.
How often are you going to retry writing this? It just got deleted before ....
 
People apparently get by profitably with this kind of work, too. What does it prove, though?

How often are you going to retry writing this? It just got deleted before ....

Feel free to shadowbox all you like. That you can't/won't accept what's happened in the past decade is your burden. To say film is different is fine by me but to say it's better is pointless and does nothing to make a case for film. BTW, did you watch the Monty Python clip?
 
...because the quality stinks. And it's old outdated stuff.
Ive used Efke and gotten very good results with it. By outdated, do you mean old fashioned emulsion technology? Because the film didn't exhibit any of the other signs of out dated. There are still a few photogrphers around who say Kodak Super Double X was the best film ever made. Personally I like Efke better than Ilford films.
 
All these anecdotes befuddle the data. The hard financials for Kodak (and what I've been reading for Fuji) point to multi-year losses for film as the race to deflate the overhead was easily outrun by the loss of consumer and lately motion picture revenues. The pension and medical liabilities are still hangovers from the film era for Kodak and mean that the preponderance of red ink stems from over a 90% drop in photo film sales. Kodak is bankrupt because people stopped buying film en masse. Every other factor is trivial.

Yes cinema film subsidized photo markets. So what? Same for Fuji.

Last year the motion picture camera makers stopped making new cameras. The rental houses are only using new old stock. This turns the entire film-based cinema market from an industrial operation to a salvage operation. They may have less than 10 years of depreciation left on those cameras as spare parts are also going to become scarce and uneconomical.

Every analyst who has looked at Kodak financials sees film as a non-performing asset with a rapidly declining user base and the abandonment if supporting industry third parties--the makers of cameras and the evisceration of local stores that sell and process film.

All I am saying is the need to reinvent film consumption cannot occur when people cling to old perceptions. Film for the average consumer lost the quality and convenience battle. A few artisanal shooters with access to $200 scans may breach the all-digital pre-press barrier but realistically film is no longer a medium of economic utility. It's a hobby. Is there enough demand there to keep the coating lines rolling? Big question that the ugliness about Kodak is soon to pry open.
 
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Nobody's doubting that the amateur consumer market for film has signficantly deflated and isn't coming back. After all, if you're going to stay in business you need to sell expendables, and in consumer electronics the whole point is to make cameras or whatever that become obsolete as quickly as possible. It's that whole idiotic "latest and greateset" mentality that keeps it going. That's
an entirely different question from keeping an important color film niche open for serious commercial
and fine art users. Unfortunately, many mfg corps live or die based on peripheral issues, like not
reinvesting their profits wisely. But if there's a demand, the vacuum does seem to get filled by
someone.
 
hi drew

at least where i am, the whole commercial lab infrastructure is dismantled. labs are vanished, no one is left who processes sheet film,
e6+c41 maybe 1 day a week ( 1 lab left that processes 120 ) ... so, unless you are processing it yourself it probably
isn't the wisest move to be shooting color anything on a commercial job ...

maybe the "fine art" market is different if it isn't deadline based ...

while it is sad that kodak is restructuring, the writing has been on the wall for a long long time ...
it is too bad they didn't do this 10 years ago, we might still have kodak paper being made by a kodak subsidiary that is strong and profitable
instead of the current situation ...
 
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Correction

I think a thread entitled "The end for Kodak" is not going to be a source of positive promotion for analog film any way you spin it. If you don't like to hear analyses about the impact Kodak's impending bankruptcy may have on the film industry, then don't read it.

And not once have I called for the "death of the site [APUG]". In fact, I clearly laid out a market space business case for the continuance of film as an alternative medium to the dominance of digital. In order to support what may come out of the impending, ultimate Kodak moment, it helps to have some reflective criticism of what led to film's rapid demise in the eyes of the public as the medium of choice and not make those errors again.

The title was 'Is this the end for Kodak?' and, thus, it doesn't carry he meaning you have inferred.

Please don't misquote me.


Jerry Lebens
 
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