The comeback?

RPC · Jun 20, 2019

Berkeley Mike said:
Yeah, but what are they offering and how many actually take and complete the classes.

For analog, they have an introductory course, an advanced b&w course including the zone system and darkroom techniques, and a large/medium format b&w course. I don't know enrollment figures but they must be high enough to offer them and that is a good sign. They have about two dozen courses in all in the photo department, everything from studio to landscape to portraiture to HDSLR filmmaking to business and of course digital, and one could ask the same about those courses but I don't have figures.

Berkeley Mike · Jun 20, 2019

What kind of school is this: Community College, Photo School. Art School, or photo program in a larger college?

RPC · Jun 20, 2019

markjwyatt said:
"Learn the increasingly rare art of black and white darkroom photography!..."

A problem occurs when a student wants to learn color film shooting/developing/printing and only b&w is offered. Most students likely want color, b&w might not appeal to them, and so abandon analog altogether. Color darkroom processing is easier to do today than ever, many don't realize this, and it is sad that schools generally don't offer it and thus students never get exposed to it. Yeah, for color there is digital, but it is sad that they are only exposed to that one alternative.

RPC · Jun 20, 2019

Berkeley Mike said:
What kind of school is this: Community College, Photo School. Art School, or photo program in a larger college?

Community college.

RPC · Jun 20, 2019

"Learn the increasingly rare art of black and white darkroom photography!..."

That is a bit misleading. Whoever chose to use the term rare probably has never seen this site or does not believe there is a "stasis". Dye transfer is rare. Color printing is seemingly decreasing. But there are still a fair number of people using b&w and perhaps even color darkrooms all over the world.

Berkeley Mike · Jun 20, 2019

If these folks are having success I'd like to learn about it. May I know the name of the school? I'd like to look at their enrollment and class offerings, maybe give their Chair a call.

Berkeley Mike · Jun 20, 2019

RPC said:
"Learn the increasingly rare art of black and white darkroom photography!..."

That is a bit misleading. Whoever chose to use the term rare probably has never seen this site or does not believe there is a "stasis". Dye transfer is rare. Color printing is seemingly decreasing. But there are still a fair number of people using b&w and perhaps even color darkrooms all over the world.

I know people in this program and they are darkroom denizens going way back. "Rare" is probably just a PR hook. Much of the attraction to analogue is its' mythic cache within the culture. And before everyone jumps on the word "mythic", the term refers to an intrinsic and resonating value, real, perceived or otherwise.

RPC · Jun 20, 2019

Here is a link to the webpage I saw:

https://sfcc.spokane.edu/What-to-Study/humanities-arts-design/Photography

Click on "courses"

Berkeley Mike · Jun 20, 2019

Thank you RPC. While this college seems to offer 18 classes, 2 are special projects. They are all not offered each semester but they average 5 actual classes (some seem to be 2 but are Lecture then lab.) Some, Like Large format do not appear to have been offered after Spring 2018. There seems no data before that.

The Fall 2019 Schedule has 9 classes, with 3 Intro Film and 2 Dig. Classes appear limited to 20 with 17 Film and 18 Dig average attendance. There is no data for completion though upper-level classes seem to be at about 11-13. I would sure like to chat with them.

This college is only about 10% larger than mine but with 40% greater budget and twice as many instructors. It is the only Community college with photo in 12,300 square miles. Ours draws from 1600 sq mi. (corrected 6/21/19)

I cannot find ethnic composition but:

The Spokane community is 86.7% White, 5.0% Hispanics and Latinos, 2.6% Asian, 2.3% African American, 2.0% Native American, 0.6% Pacific Islander, and 1.3% from other races.

The Oakland community is 11% White, 13% Hispanic, 27% Asian, 29% African American, 2% from other races and 10 unknown.

So, not really much analogue.I would love to have their budget!

RPC · Jun 20, 2019

But they only offer b&w analog, so if you want color which I imagine most do you are forced to go digital. It would be interesting to see how the results might be different if they always had been, and were still offering good analog color courses, including (sigh) hybrid, along with b&w. But of course factors such as budget, interest, societal pressures and bias have been at work to unknown degrees, making it impossible to ever know.

Berkeley Mike · Jun 20, 2019

RPC said:
But they only offer b&w analog, so if you want color which I imagine most do you are forced to go digital. It would be interesting to see how the results might be different if they always had been, and were still offering good analog color courses,

Our Color Printing class closed in 2012 due to lack of enrollment. We kept the gear but it never could draw.

RPC · Jun 20, 2019

Your school dropped b&w as well, but there is still interest here; again it is difficult to assess just what factors are at work and the effect a good color program would have.

faberryman · Jun 20, 2019

RPC said:
Your school dropped b&w as well, but there is still interest here; again it is difficult to assess just what factors are at work and the effect a good color program would have.

You seem to be in denial about the necessity of interested students in order to offer classes. It's not like they don't have experience offering the classes and not enough students signing up, and of those who do sign up, high attrition rates. My experience with attrition is that people drop out because of the cost of film and paper, notwithstanding that the school provides all the darkroom equipment and chemicals.

RPC · Jun 20, 2019

Not at all. Read post #1010 and I list interest as one of possible other factors that can affect the offering of classes and again in #1012.

Perhaps you are in denial that there could be other factors besides interest.

Berkeley Mike · Jun 20, 2019

Sure, there is interest here but this is an international watering hole (so to speak) for such interest. As such, I do not see it as any indication that we represent the general public or even a public inclined to take photo classes of any kind.

You can't pay the rent without customers. No Color enrollment? Low B&W enrollment? I simply cannot effect that. We as a department cannot effect the kinds or numbers of students that approach our college at the Entry level. The influences outside the college are what they are and outreach out to such a wide public circumstance is iffy at best. Heck, it is easier to find work as a photographer.

The Entry level classes can be one-and-done; people learned what they needed and they are off to the races. Yet we can effect the students in our classes. I have a retention (finishers) rate of 84%, a Success rate (above a D) of 94%. My last Intro to digital class had 19. From there 11 are enrolled, so far, for the next level of classes and we aren't anywhere near the beginning of Fall semester. I will not speak for the in-class performance of our Analogue classes but will say that analogue courses only persist at about 15-20% and a good portion of those have come from the next level of classes due to an increased awareness of that part of our program.

Berkeley Mike · Jun 20, 2019

RPC said:
Not at all. Read post #1010 and I list interest as one of possible other factors that can affect the offering of classes and again in #1012.

Perhaps you are in denial that there could be other factors besides interest.

I would be interested in the main factors you think might be effectible and how you might execute and approach.

RPC · Jun 20, 2019

I already stated a few possible factors just off the top of my head that I think anyone could come up with and understand. I also stated the actual factors were unknown, and difficult to assess, so I don't get why I am expected to answer that.

Berkeley Mike · Jun 20, 2019

It is hard to put any truck in "off the top of your head" so I cannot see how it is part of the discussion. If you cannot see how to implement your ideas, what are their value? It comes off as, while sincere, simplistic. I'm coming from real-time data, Departmental PR, fundraising, none of which is simple. If you are coming from a career in Advertising, Academic program development, or community building that is another story. The world is full of idea people and extremely short of those who can actually make things work.

RPC · Jun 20, 2019

I have made some observations, and stated some possibilities. I say again that I believe there are unknowns to deal with so it should be clear I don't have, and cannot have, any solid answers! If you disagree or otherwise have a problem with anything I have said, or think you know all the unknowns, okay, fine.

Berkeley Mike · Jun 20, 2019

Sounds like Dark Matter.

In terms of a true "comeback", there needs to be a ramp-up to better numbers. This has to take place within a public inclined to increase their presence with analogue, a major cultural shift.

MattKing · Jun 20, 2019

Any discussion of a "comeback" is going to be be-deviled by the challenge of determining a comeback from what?
It isn't going to be 1995, but it might be something in the 2005-2010 range.
Sort of like the US economy.
Berkeley Mike is approaching the question from a particular, vocational and career training perspective. His "comeback" is quite likely entirely different than a comeback that might be observed by the retail market, or the photo manufacturing industry, or the Art photography world, or the photo hobbyist world, or, or, ....

Berkeley Mike · Jun 20, 2019

Good points. Any "Comeback", evolution, or trend from my standpoint is in anticipation of how it will effect what our program does. Ilford, Fuji, Nikon are all doing the same thing to see what their moves will need to be. Pros and students represent the largest groups and most intense users of photography to which I have access. Collections of hobbyists or clubs are nowhere near as large. I talk to other pros and academics. Commercial pros use what is used now; digital. Academics, curiously, can be so enmeshed in what they have been teaching that the idea of letting it go is anathema. I don't get much from the gallery-oriented as the Art folk use all sorts of things. Anyhow, while much digital is taught and is a central thread in nearly all of our classes, film persists. After one retirement by a senior colleague it will certainly dwindle. If a real comeback occurs I guess I'll be sloshing around in the yellow light myself to fill-in.

warden · Jun 21, 2019

MattKing said:
Any discussion of a "comeback" is going to be be-deviled by the challenge of determining a comeback from what?
It isn't going to be 1995, but it might be something in the 2005-2010 range.
Sort of like the US economy.
Berkeley Mike is approaching the question from a particular, vocational and career training perspective. His "comeback" is quite likely entirely different than a comeback that might be observed by the retail market, or the photo manufacturing industry, or the Art photography world, or the photo hobbyist world, or, or, ....

I'm just happy to see film companies, new and old, investing and taking risks again which is a sign of health. Reintroducing and/or reformulating older film stocks is a positive development and I hope it pays off for those involved. I'm blowing through a lot of P3200 and Ektachrome and I just love that stuff. With any luck the trend (comeback, if you like) will continue and the industry will stabilize at an appropriate size.

Berkeley Mike · Jun 21, 2019

jawarden said:
I'm just happy to see film companies, new and old, investing and taking risks again which is a sign of health. Reintroducing and/or reformulating older film stocks is a positive development and I hope it pays off for those involved. I'm blowing through a lot of P3200 and Ektachrome and I just love that stuff. With any luck the trend (comeback, if you like) will continue and the industry will stabilize at an appropriate size.

They are making informed, analyzed and smart decisions to embrace a market that has a new shape. There is money to be made there. It's just not 960,000,000/year rolls anymore.

removed account4 · Jun 21, 2019

Sirius Glass said:
Well, we all can see that you are thinking about yourself and projecting you insecurities on others. As others have noted Photo$hop does not make people creative. People are either creative or not.

jtk said:
I think the key involves curiosity and willingness to take risks. Lots more than just "showing up."

Maybe curiosity and willingness to take risks develop over time, or later in life. Maybe they have to do with experience of failure (more than success).

I think they constitute intelligence.

who cares if the media section / gallery contains creative or non creative photography. for some it isn't their cup of tea, they would rather take photographs of things that make them happy, stuff they enjoy photographing, nothing wrong with that, and people shouldn't be talked down to because they use photo$hop or they don't or they take risks &c, cause in the end its about enjoying oneself. if someone isn't enjoying themselves in their comfort zone having a good time there really is no point ( unless they are all yossarian ). on the other hand some people like taking risks using photo$hop, distressing their media, being on the edge of what makes them comfortable and uncomfortable and having a good time. nothing wrong with that. people tend to forget this is an amateur photography site, not some site filled with pros or used to be pros or wannabe pros or fancy artists or gallery types. its just regular people doing their thing and bragging and talking about gear. its too bad people can't just do whatever they want with whatever they want without someone coming down on them. i think i said that 5 or 10 pages ago too ...

The comeback?

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