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eddie

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I almost never say anything negative about individual Media photos. You rarely say anything meaningful about them. If I post I virtually always do it to praise.

Your whining about the past only takes away from whatever you might contribute...if you were able.

You continue to disparage Media submissions as a whole in the forums. I've never whined about the past. There were a lot of photographers doing outstanding work who no longer do so. I found their work inspiring, and creative. I miss their images. For some, I'm fortunate enough to keep in touch, and see their work elsewhere. They're all a big loss (both with images and knowledge) to this community. As for what I "may contribute", I'd put my years here up against yours (both in my images and my posts) anytime. I didn't come here to troll...
 

jtk

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All Consumed

All Consumed is a series of landscape photographs fabricated with advertising imagery of lush greenery, blue skies and snow-capped mountains from the plastic wrappers on multipacks of bottled water. Addressing how the bottled water industry uses marketing tools to drive Americans to consume 50 billion bottles of water a year at 1000 times the cost of tap water, this project combines a marketing image of nature’s purity with plastic waste products to call out the hypocrisy of consumer culture. This bottled water culture is not unique to America however. These landscape photographs are made from packaging from European, Asian and Middle Eastern water companies as well and addresses the impact of branding by the bottled water industry on consumers as we move toward the inevitability of water as a commodity worldwide.

To make these ideas real, I layer a hard, transparent plastic “blister pack” with water bottle packaging on a light table, fill the plastic depressions with bottled water and photograph the composition with a view camera. I have chosen to combine two of the first things we throw away, inverting the value of the things consumers buy by preserving and elevating the disposable and ubiquitous packaging and plastics to make trash an object of desire and beauty.

Water as a commodity has been a subject in my art practice for over twenty years. Living in the high desert of the American West, my perspective on the value of water is shaped by watching water rights bought and sold and knowing that the geography of Colorado dictates that all the water eventually leaves and none flows back into the state suggesting that when the history of the West is written, it will be written in water.

photo by Gary Emrich
http://lenscratch.com/2019/06/gary-emrich/
 

Eric Rose

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You continue to disparage Media submissions as a whole in the forums. I've never whined about the past. There were a lot of photographers doing outstanding work who no longer do so. I found their work inspiring, and creative. I miss their images. For some, I'm fortunate enough to keep in touch, and see their work elsewhere. They're all a big loss (both with images and knowledge) to this community. As for what I "may contribute", I'd put my years here up against yours (both in my images and my posts) anytime. I didn't come here to troll...
Eddie, the "ignore" function is a wonderful thing.
 

Berkeley Mike

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Yes people who are creative are often creative in many venues. Using PS doesnt make you any more creative than someone thinking that using a Leica M is going to allow you to take pictures like HCB or any other of those idolized photographers. To do film editing like in the link provided, agencies work with schools and run work experience programs, much the same way as they have sporting programs, kids start at 13 and if they have a talent they are snapped up. A 25 year old film editor can have 12 years experience. Photoshop hobbyist are no different to film hobbyist, just that they have a back button. I can visualize in 2 and 3 dimension, can add emotion and atmosphere all in a moment or sometimes months in the making, cant every one? Unfortunately I lack the skills to put it on paper, no different to using PS, just that Im happier to use my hands than a mouse. Someone told me a while ago that you can take 20 photographers out to take a photo, but only one will be capable of making it into a picture and you cant teach the others how to, its something you have to be born with. What he didn't tell was that a few of them will think that they can.......and thats all good as long as your enjoying your self. Ive been working at it for a few years, I expect to take 5-10 years to show any competency, maybe I will maybe I wont. I dont ever call myself an artist or creative, others do, when I see it I will believe it.

BTW I think its great people putting up their pictures again in the media section, we should encourage not discourage.

It is ALL about showing up. By the time I got to Babe Ruth Baseball at 13, I had 9 years of pitching and thousands of hours of shagging fly balls with my dad. It becomes second nature. My son rode his bike at 3.5 years old. Any surprise that he was a championship mountain bike racer in High School?

I have also taught, coached, and supported teens and youth for nearly 50 years. Their facility for picking things up, succeeding, and putting them down for other things is a simple fact of life. I am not demeaning, simply sharing my experience. Let's not shoot the messenger.
 

eddie

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Eddie, the "ignore" function is a wonderful thing.

So I hear, but I've never done that on any site. I guess the optimist in me expects the occasional positive contributions from otherwise negative contributors. jtk HAS made some worthwhile posts, especially linking to the work of other photographers. I don't think his questioning the quality of the work shared here serves any purpose but to feed a fragile ego. Photrio is comprised of different people, with different levels of experience, and a wide variety of reasons for pursuing photography. To paint the image contributions with a broad brush of mediocrity is missing the point of this community.
 

Berkeley Mike

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I've never said anything about the demise of film. I simply address a mistaken notion that "film is making a comeback"; a thing that overstates film's vitality. I have suggested, instead, a stasis; a far cry from a demise.
 

awty

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So I hear, but I've never done that on any site. I guess the optimist in me expects the occasional positive contributions from otherwise negative contributors. jtk HAS made some worthwhile posts, especially linking to the work of other photographers. I don't think his questioning the quality of the work shared here serves any purpose but to feed a fragile ego. Photrio is comprised of different people, with different levels of experience, and a wide variety of reasons for pursuing photography. To paint the image contributions with a broad brush of mediocrity is missing the point of this community.
For what its worth he does often comments on pictures put up on the media page, more than most. jtk has great enthusiasm that runs hot and cold, defiantly an interesting character. There is benefit for communities to have a bit of division, makes it more exciting.
 

RalphLambrecht

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I think, rather, of a new stasis and not recovery or growth. Given the rate of "boomers" disappearing along with their film disciplines and the statistically lower infill from generations that follow, it would be no surprise to see that stasis could readjust downward in the next decade.
+1
 

awty

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It is ALL about showing up. By the time I got to Babe Ruth Baseball at 13, I had 9 years of pitching and thousands of hours of shagging fly balls with my dad. It becomes second nature. My son rode his bike at 3.5 years old. Any surprise that he was a championship mountain bike racer in High School?

I have also taught, coached, and supported teens and youth for nearly 50 years. Their facility for picking things up, succeeding, and putting them down for other things is a simple fact of life. I am not demeaning, simply sharing my experience. Let's not shoot the messenger.
If I taught I would probably be like J. K. Simmons character in Whip Lash........or maybe not that severer, but I think its important to challenge as well as encourage. It does take a lot of hard work to be good at something and if you find it easy your not working hard enough.
My youngest was media captain in her final year of high school. Started doing media at college, wasn't going the way she wanted so she dropped out went to work full time, saved some money, went to Europe for 6 months and is back now refocused and doing an arts degree at a university majoring in literature, she lives independently, cleans offices and toilets 2 days a week and studies the rest of the time. Amazing, at that age my only interest was girls and V8's.
 

jtk

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If I taught I would probably be like J. K. Simmons character in Whip Lash........or maybe not that severer, but I think its important to challenge as well as encourage. It does take a lot of hard work to be good at something and if you find it easy your not working hard enough.
My youngest was media captain in her final year of high school. Started doing media at college, wasn't going the way she wanted so she dropped out went to work full time, saved some money, went to Europe for 6 months and is back now refocused and doing an arts degree at a university majoring in literature, she lives independently, cleans offices and toilets 2 days a week and studies the rest of the time. Amazing, at that age my only interest was girls and V8's.

I think the key involves curiosity and willingness to take risks. Lots more than just "showing up."

Maybe curiosity and willingness to take risks develop over time, or later in life. Maybe they have to do with experience of failure (more than success).

I think they constitute intelligence.
 

RPC

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I've never said anything about the demise of film. I simply address a mistaken notion that "film is making a comeback"; a thing that overstates film's vitality. I have suggested, instead, a stasis; a far cry from a demise.
I believe it is more than relates to any comeback. You have attempted to counter discussions simply trying to show that analog is just as viable a photographic medium as digital and reasons for its teaching, use, and continued survival.
I think, rather, of a new stasis and not recovery or growth. Given the rate of "boomers" disappearing along with their film disciplines and the statistically lower infill from generations that follow, it would be no surprise to see that stasis could readjust downward in the next decade.
Readjusting downward is not exactly a stasis. You have the audacity to say these types of things when you yourself are contributing to them by not teaching analog at your school by choice. Fortunately you can't control the internet and as I indicated earlier that will continue to be a force in keeping analog strong.
 
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faberryman

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You have the audacity to say these types of things when you yourself are contributing to them by not teaching analog at your school by choice.
The reason that he doesn't offer a film class is that there are not enough students interested in taking a film class for it to make. It frequently happens at my community college as well.
 

RPC

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Well of course, you would likely not be interested in it if you are not exposed to it and that would the case with young people. That is why they need some exposure to it. A full fledged class would not be necessary to give them enough good information to get them interested. Certainly something could be arranged to guarantee a more well-rounded photography education instead of missing out on something that may not only give them enjoyment but help keep analog alive. But judging by his attitude toward analog such a thing wouldn't happen. There is bias against it; that is my impression from his posts here about analog.
 
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Andrew O'Neill

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The analogue film program at my school (I teach it), is up from two classes, to four for next year. The councillors have told me they've had to turn kids away. I would say it's a come back.
On a personal level, if film dies, there will still be many of us coating our own substrates, and making prints under an enlarger, or alt prints under the sun.
 

Berkeley Mike

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I believe it is more than relates to any comeback. You have attempted to counter discussions simply trying to show that analog is just as viable a photographic medium as digital and reasons for its teaching, use, and continued survival.

Readjusting downward is not exactly a stasis. You have the audacity to say these types of things when you yourself are contributing to them by not teaching analog at your school by choice. Fortunately you can't control the internet and as I indicated earlier that will continue to be a force in keeping analog strong.

I hear you; perhaps it is a matter of stopping the freefall and holding at a new, admittedly lower, level.

As to classes, clearly digital is a more useful tool for getting started an it enjoys a greater use in commercial and public work. Further, with budget cuts we needed to support the classes that drew students and created students who would move forward in the program. Film did neither. From 2011 to present the number of entry-level classes were reduced from 5 to 1; not enough students were enrolling in them and the completion rate was 30-35%. Film was hard to justify.

While I was chair 2015-2017 I did press for more digital entry-level classes and was accused by my older instructors of trying to kill film. They did not seem to see that they could not develop enrollment and were unable to keep students in class, both out of my hands.There, just as here, I was a convenient target for frustrations. As an inveterate messenger I am accustomed to that.

We have a fine darkroom and all of the supporting loading, chemical, storage, drying and film processing rooms. At that time we were the only school in a 20-mile radius to offer darkroom and had the talent, supported by a studio. I've seen too many old darkrooms become dusty storage and I could not simply let it all go. I instigated a special Certificate of 3 Film-oriented classes. Under a new chair these were placed in the curriculum. We now have Entry and Intermediate levels of film along with a Special process class (cyanotype & etc.) Special processes drew no students and was cancelled, Intermediate drew 7 and finished 4, Intro drew 15 and finished 8. Special and Intermediate are not offered in the Fall with only Intro surviving.

Today I see that our school 20 miles north is did not conduct any classes in analogue processes and the school to the east, who's Photo classes are a small part (5 of 38) of the Art Department Department offers only 2 film classes with the Intro digital prerequisite. So to you here and my colleagues who have blamed me...there you have it. I cannot control the world.

At the same time, I will not go on some mission to keep film alive at the cost of the whole program surviving. Photo as a career is under great scrutiny and if we don't produce numbers we can disappear; photo departments are disappearing at an alarming rate. We have lost 1 of our 6 part-time instructors and have no full-time instructors. Non-productive classes are being cut from above administratively.

The politics in the last 2 years have been awful for us. To administrators, I am a blessing and curse and I am chair again. I do not want the chair but I am the best person to do this job; it may not be pretty. I get things done and enrollment in the program increases under my work. We are so far down now, though, that I am not certain I can pull this one out of the hat. It won't be for lack of trying, not to keep film alive, but to keep a Photo program alive.
 
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Berkeley Mike

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The analogue film program at my school (I teach it), is up from two classes, to four for next year. The councillors have told me they've had to turn kids away. I would say it's a come back.
On a personal level, if film dies, there will still be many of us coating our own substrates, and making prints under an enlarger, or alt prints under the sun.
That is great news.
 

warden

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The analogue film program at my school (I teach it), is up from two classes, to four for next year. The councillors have told me they've had to turn kids away. I would say it's a come back.

That's outstanding! Is there anything you can point to that has triggered the new interest?
 

markjwyatt

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I hear you; perhaps it is a matter of stopping the freefall and holding at a new, admittedly lower, level.

As to classes, clearly digital is a more useful tool for getting started an it enjoys a greater use in commercial and public work. Further, with budget cuts we needed to support the classes that drew students and created students who would move forward in the program. Film did neither. From 2011 to present the number of entry-level classes were reduced from 5 to 1; not enough students were enrolling in them and the completion rate was 30-35%. Film was hard to justify.

While I was chair 2015-2017 I did press for more digital entry-level classes and was accused by my older instructors of trying to kill film. They did not seem to see that they could not develop enrollment and were unable to keep students in class, both out of my hands.There, just as here, I was a convenient target for frustrations. As an inveterate messenger I am accustomed to that.

We have a fine darkroom and all of the supporting loading, chemical, storage, drying and film processing rooms. At that time we were the only school in a 20-mile radius to offer darkroom and had the talent, supported by a studio. I've seen too many old darkrooms become dusty storage and I could not simply let it all go. I instigated a special Certificate of 3 Film-oriented classes. Under a new chair these were placed in the curriculum. We now have Entry and Intermediate levels of film along with a Special process class (cyanotype & etc.) Special processes drew no students and was cancelled, Intermediate drew 7 and finished 4, Intro drew 15 and finished 8. Special and Intermediate are not offered in the Fall with only Intro surviving.

Today I see that our school 20 miles north is did not conduct any classes in analogue processes and the school to the east, who's Photo classes are a small part (5 of 38) of the Art Department Department offers only 2 film classes with the Intro digital prerequisite. So to you here and my colleagues who have blamed me...there you have it. I cannot control the world.

At the same time, I will not go on some mission to keep film alive at the cost of the whole program surviving. Photo as a career is under great scrutiny and if we don't produce numbers we can disappear; photo departments are disappearing at an alarming rate. We have lost 1 of our 6 part-time instructors and have no full-time instructors. Non-productive classes are being cut from above administratively.

The politics in the last 2 years have been awful for us. To administrators, I am a blessing and curse and I am chair again. I do not want the chair but I am the best person to do this job; it may not be pretty. I get things done and enrollment in the program increases under my work. We are so far down now, though, that I am not certain I can pull this one out of the hat. It won't be for lack of trying, not to keep film alive, but to keep a Photo program alive.

Don't know where you are relative to UC Berkeley, but they still offer analog photography- and this is a summer course.
"Beginning Darkroom Photography"
"Learn the increasingly rare art of black and white darkroom photography!..."
https://artstudio.berkeley.edu/course/beginning-darkroom-photography/

They even make the darkroom available outside scheduled class times.
https://artstudio.berkeley.edu/course/darkroom-open-hours/
 

eddie

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Maybe curiosity and willingness to take risks develop over time, or later in life. Maybe they have to do with experience of failure (more than success).

I completely agree with this ( see, we're not always at odds, and why I've never used the ignore function :smile:). Accumulating a bunch of failures over a lifetime tends to make one less fearful of adding a few more...
 

RPC

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I checked with a local college in my town and there seems to be enough interest. They too offer b&w, and even large format courses.
 

Sirius Glass

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My point is that there's very little creativity in analog photography...game up... this isn't a matter of technology, it's a matter of where the creativity resides.

https://www.netflix.com/title/70264888

By the way, I'm a slow learner but I'm continually finding how beautifully Photoshop can be used in conjunction with pre visualization...in other words, I can see a scene or situation and render that, rather than being captive to an analog representation.

Well, we all can see that you are thinking about yourself and projecting you insecurities on others. As others have noted Photo$hop does not make people creative. People are either creative or not.
 

Andrew O'Neill

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That's outstanding! Is there anything you can point to that has triggered the new interest?

My magnetic personality? :D Quite a few have Instax cameras and want to know more about analogue. Many kids had no idea that analogue photography was offered...I promoted the crap out of the course this past year, and it paid off. We'll be doing a lot of film printing, pinhole, cyanotypes, and gum printing. Thankfully, I've now got an admin team that is very supportive of art.
 

Berkeley Mike

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Don't know where you are relative to UC Berkeley, but they still offer analog photography- and this is a summer course.
"Beginning Darkroom Photography"
"Learn the increasingly rare art of black and white darkroom photography!..."
https://artstudio.berkeley.edu/course/beginning-darkroom-photography/

They even make the darkroom available outside scheduled class times.
https://artstudio.berkeley.edu/course/darkroom-open-hours/

I know the instructors there. The program has shrunk to an alarmingly low level but ti is still there. They put enlargers in storage and instructors from the college to the north teach there. It is a small community supported by an extremely large University of California. UC Berkeley alone has 41,000. If you can't fill a frisbee course from 41,000 students then you really have a problem. Note: "the increasingly rare art." They see the writing on the wall.
 

Berkeley Mike

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My magnetic personality? :D Quite a few have Instax cameras and want to know more about analogue. Many kids had no idea that analogue photography was offered...I promoted the crap out of the course this past year, and it paid off. We'll be doing a lot of film printing, pinhole, cyanotypes, and gum printing. Thankfully, I've now got an admin team that is very supportive of art.
Sure, there's that but you are also enthusiastic and feeding off of the student energy. Our old school folk are not of that ilk but they are so high in seniority that there is nothing te be done.
 
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