The comeback?

[Berkeley Mike]

Do you mean Berkely Mike, he is the one who started and continues totally unnecessary posts obviously designed to praise digital and show the lesser importance of film? I am not a troll, I just find it necessary to show an opposing view based on plenty of experience with both film and digital images as indicated earlier. How many of you have such experience? I have presented some points none of which have not been successfully refuted. Now I am seeing those here who, when seeing points and opinions they don't like, are yelling "troll". Such mentality does not promote meaningful discussion and can only harm both Photrio and the photographic community.

It is extremely awkward to discuss this issue with some film folk. Investments are deep both in the heart and in the hands that express the craft that is so meaningful to them...and rightfully so. What this encounters is an internal context, a narrative that ties everything together. As such, managing the straightforward information and data is resisted as everything is tied together and untangling them is a threat...Instead, beliefs come to the fore and beliefs, which can obscure access to real-time information, withstand change to retain identity.

I have watched this in real time, face-to-face, with both the long-experienced and the superficially involved. The latter, with less skin in the game, can see that their notions about the wet process are from a limited exposure to photography and its maturation. The former just dig in further in a defensive posture. It makes discussion very hard.

I have avoided answering queries that beg the film vs. digital argument as that is not the point; it is an emotionally-charged red herring. The real point is defining "The Comeback" as something that is real but with real limits. And there is the rub: any such analysis for definition, and therefor constriction, touches that hot button issue and it is easy to get distracted. And so, insight is confounded by pre-existing investments.

Points addressing "The Comeback", that is how film really functions in our world, are welcomed. Understanding the present role of film, even at the cost of challenging internal beliefs, solidifies its current value. Based upon that, substantial progress can be made to enrich the place of film instead of tilting at windmills. Just look at the folk who make our cameras, our film and other supplies. They aren't arguing film/dig but coming to terms with what is and addressing the market with their valuable resources (Ferrenia)...or not (Canon).

I have heard at my college, all too often, that I have tried to kill film in our program because I challenged its value to the entire program. Film classes do not breed success in students. The workflow is too time-consuming, it has very limited vocational application, few students get to the finish line, and fewer yet go one to take more classes in the department. It added no value to the overall program and I recommended that we pull film out of the core requirements for our vocational degree. Film folk were beside themselves; this would certainly kill film.

What I proposed was a specific set of film-related classes that form a special certificate that no other college offers. It would establish us as a destination for sophisticated analogue processes and we could market such cache in a way no other college could. It took 4 months to get any film folk on board but they finally did and we crafted Intro, Intermediate, and Alternative process classes formed into a certificate. The process, from instigation of the idea to passing the State, took 2.5 years.

In the meantime 2 Deans saw the poor performance of the entry-level film classes. 256 students enrolled in Intro to film, with a substantial uptick in Fall 2017. Yet only 54 finished the class. A new chair, an inexperienced MFA who knows only film and has been very resistant to change, finally saw the writing on the wall and recommended to reduce those classes from 3 to 1. The idea of a certificate was attractive to the Administration and the new courses were added to the curriculum. In short, by defining the real value of film/analogue, a solid place could be created to sustain this discipline in the department instead of disappearing altogether.

The Film Killer says, you're welcome.

 

[Berkeley Mike]

Theater of the absurd.

I think, more importantly, that this is an extremely valuable discussion whether we agree or not. There is a lot of talent and passion on this site. One of the incumbent difficulties is that we are dealing with photographers; people who would much rather come to conclusion than elaboration outside ones' beliefs. Some, therefore, can only be dismissive which contributes nothing to understand the issue except their identity.

 

[faberryman]

Our local community college offers four film photography classes: Film 1, Film 2, Alternate Processes, and Special Projects. No special certificate is offered in film. Film 1 is offered in the Fall and usually makes, though there is some attrition. Film II is offered in the Spring, and sometimes makes and sometimes doesn't. Alternate Processes is offered in the Fall if during the preceding Spring Film II made, and enough Film II students express an interest. Special Projects is offered in the Spring if during the preceding Fall Alternate Processes made, and enough Alternative Processes students express an interest. Class size is generally limited to 15, though if there is enough interest, a few can be added or a second session is offered. It takes 8 to make a class. At least one section of Film I makes each year. Film II often doesn't make, and Alternate Process and Special Projects have only been offered once each in the seven years I have been associated with the program. It is entirely student driven. All of the film classes are taught by one instructor. She has an MFA in photography and spent a year working as Sally Mann's assistant. The various digital classes are all offered regularly and always make. Based on my experience, it is the cost of film and paper, and the time commitment, which are a drag on the film program, that and the fact that virtually all the professional photographers in the area are shooting digital. It's hard enough to find jobs and earn income as a digital photographer. Those that do occasionally shoot film are working on personal projects with the hope of getting a show and selling some prints. We all know how that usually works out. There is also a small group of film and alternate process photographers associated with a local community darkroom. None are professional photographers.

 

[Berkeley Mike]

Our local community college offers four film photography classes: Film 1, Film 2, Alternate Processes, and Special Projects. No special certificate is offered in film. Film 1 is offered in the Fall and usual makes, though there is some attrition. Film II is offered in the Spring, and sometimes makes and sometimes doesn't. Alternate Processes is offered in the Fall if during the preceding Spring Film II made, and enough Film II students express an interest. Special Projects is offered in the Spring if during the preceding Fall Alternate Processes made, and enough Alternative Processes students express and interest. Class size is generally limited to 15, though if their is enough interest, a few can be added or a second session is offered. It takes 8 to make a class. At least one section of Film I makes each year. Film II often doesn't make, and Alternate Process and Special Projects have only been offered once each in the seven years I have been associated with the program. It is entirely student driven. All of the film classes are taught by one instructor. She has an MFA in photography and spent a year working as Sally Mann's assistant. The various digital classes are all offered regularly and always make. Based on my experience, it is the cost of film and paper, and the time commitment, which are a drag on the film program, that and the fact that virtually all the professional photographers in the area are shooting digital. It's hard enough to find jobs and earn income as a digital photographer. Those that do occasionally shoot film are working on personal projects with the hope of getting a show and selling some prints. We all know how that usually works out.

Ahhhhh...a breath of fresh air.

I really appreciate the elaboration of your local college process. It helps to define what are referred to as "Best Practices." I will share this "if/then" scenario with the appropriate folks. There is no way to make this film thing work with beliefs alone.

Thanks, Fabman.

 

[RPC]

I think, more importantly, that this is an extremely valuable discussion whether we agree or not

Yes, because opposing views are presenting important points and facts not presented in the biased digital rant. I am glad I am not one of your students. I shudder to think of receiving such a biased education.

Personally, I am not convinced there is any kind of film comeback, that film use will likely decline, something most of us realize and have talked about much before. But the overkill attitude you have started and continued here on the status of film was totally unnecessary and worst of all, incomplete and necessitated comment.

It is extremely awkward to discuss this issue with some film folk. Investments are deep both in the heart and in the hands that express the craft that is so meaningful to them...and rightfully so. What this encounters is an internal context, a narrative that ties everything together. As such, managing the straightforward information and data is resisted as everything is tied together and untangling them is a threat...Instead, beliefs come to the fore and beliefs, which can obscure access to real-time information, withstand change to retain identity.

I have watched this in real time, face-to-face, with both the long-experienced and the superficially involved. The latter, with less skin in the game, can see that their notions about the wet process are from a limited exposure to photography and its maturation. The former just dig in further in a defensive posture. It makes discussion very hard.

I have avoided answering queries that beg the film vs. digital argument as that is not the point; it is an emotionally-charged red herring. The real point is defining "The Comeback" as something that is real but with real limits. And there is the rub: any such analysis for definition, and therefor constriction, touches that hot button issue and it is easy to get distracted. And so, insight is confounded by pre-existing investments.

Points addressing "The Comeback", that is how film really functions in our world, are welcomed. Understanding the present role of film, even at the cost of challenging internal beliefs, solidifies its current value. Based upon that, substantial progress can be made to enrich the place of film instead of tilting at windmills. Just look at the folk who make our cameras, our film and other supplies. They aren't arguing film/dig but coming to terms with what is and addressing the market with their valuable resources (Ferrenia)...or not (Canon).

I have heard at my college, all too often, that I have tried to kill film in our program because I challenged its value to the entire program. Film classes do not breed success in students. The workflow is too time-consuming, it has very limited vocational application, few students get to the finish line, and fewer yet go one to take more classes in the department. It added no value to the overall program and I recommended that we pull film out of the core requirements for our vocational degree. Film folk were beside themselves; this would certainly kill film.

What I proposed was a specific set of film-related classes that form a special certificate that no other college offers. It would establish us as a destination for sophisticated analogue processes and we could market such cache in a way no other college could. It took 4 months to get any film folk on board but they finally did and we crafted Intro, Intermediate, and Alternative process classes formed into a certificate. The process, from instigation of the idea to passing the State, took 2.5 years.

In the meantime 2 Deans saw the poor performance of the entry-level film classes. 256 students enrolled in Intro to film, with a substantial uptick in Fall 2017. Yet only 54 finished the class. A new chair, an inexperienced MFA who knows only film and has been very resistant to change, finally saw the writing on the wall and recommended to reduce those classes from 3 to 1. The idea of a certificate was attractive to the Administration and the new courses were added to the curriculum. In short, by defining the real value of film/analogue, a solid place could be created to sustain this discipline in the department instead of disappearing altogether.
The Film Killer says, you're welcome.

It seems the rant is going to go on and on...

 

[faberryman]

I really appreciate the elaboration of your local college process. It helps to define what are referred to as "Best Practices." I will share this "if/then" scenario with the appropriate folks. There is no way to make this film thing work with beliefs alone.

I forgot to say that there are several camera clubs in the area. I emphasize the word camera clubs. The discussion and images are virtually all digital.

 

[Berkeley Mike]

It seems the rant is going to go on and on...

30 pages is hardly a rant. As I said; dismissive.

 

[jamesaz]

Are you in possession of data showing that the waste stream of computer imaging is less? Liquid effluent is less but that is only one part of the manufacturing and processing chain.

I am not. Is it more or less? I can't say. I know only from the position of a lowly wet lab user/manager that had to contract waste and silver recovery vendors. My observation is one of a practical nature from that perspective.

 

[markjwyatt]

I see a lot of reference to vocational programs in the academic context. I suspect part of what is keeping film alive is the pursuit of artistic goals. One can call being an artist a vocation, but I suspect most vocational programs are targeting commercial photography (as would make sense- especially at the Jr. college level). Some photographers can (and do) offer film as an offering either complementing or even substituting for digital, but I am not sure how viable this is as a wide scale, long term business model; though it could make some photographers stand out as unique. I especially suspect this could work well in areas like fine portraits. People are still painting portraits, but of course it is costly. A fine film based portrait could be produced for the cost of a fine digitally produced portrait. Of course the question still remains how many people would care one way or the other.

 

[faberryman]

I see a lot of reference to vocational programs in the academic context. I suspect part of what is keeping film alive is the pursuit of artistic goals. One can call being an artist a vocation, but I suspect most vocational programs are targeting commercial photography (as would make sense). Some photographers can (and do) offer film as an offering either complementing or even substituting for digital, but I am not sure how viable this is as a wide scale, long term business model; though it could make some photographers stand out as unique. I especially suspect this could work well in areas like fine portraits. People are still painting portraits, but of course it is costly. A fine film based portrait could be produced for the cost of a fine digitally produced portrait. Of course the question still remains how many people would care one way or the other.

This is correct. I don't know what your average everyday non-professional photographer is doing, except from brief interactions with camera clubs where it is virtually all digital. I know there are fine art photographers working in film. You can find their work if you look for it.

 

[CMoore]

Pro commercial photographers almost entirely use digital, as do pro and amateur art photographers. The notion that there's a worthwhile debate is ridiculous.

The same thing happens in all Fields/Hobbies.....and you are right of course, it gets ridiculous.
Golf with their spike Vs spike-less, Carbon or Metal shaft, Wood Vs Metal heads, etc etc.
Artists with their Oil Vs Acrylic paints, Canvas Vs Whatever material to paint on, etc etc
Guitar players with their Tube Vs Solid State amps Paper Vs Hemp speaker cones, so on and so forth.
EVERYBODY has these pointless arguments as the technology of their chosen hobby makes fundamental leaps ahead.

 

[markjwyatt]

...
EVERYBODY has these pointless arguments as the technology of their chosen hobby makes fundamental leaps ahead.

I am not sure they are all pointless to the specialized practitioner, but may be to John Q. Public.

 

[RPC]

I forgot to say that there are several camera clubs in the area. I emphasize the word camera clubs. The discussion and images are virtually all digital.

The quote you made your reply was attributed to me. I did not say it.

 

[faberryman]

The quote you made your reply was attributed to me. I did not say it.

Not sure how that happened but I fixed it.

 

[warden]

I see a lot of reference to vocational programs in the academic context. I suspect part of what is keeping film alive is the pursuit of artistic goals. One can call being an artist a vocation, but I suspect most vocational programs are targeting commercial photography (as would make sense- especially at the Jr. college level). Some photographers can (and do) offer film as an offering either complementing or even substituting for digital, but I am not sure how viable this is as a wide scale, long term business model; though it could make some photographers stand out as unique. I especially suspect this could work well in areas like fine portraits. People are still painting portraits, but of course it is costly. A fine film based portrait could be produced for the cost of a fine digitally produced portrait. Of course the question still remains how many people would care one way or the other.

Fair points and I agree, it seems unlikely that a vocational school is where evidence of a film "comeback" (however we define it) would be collected.

Perhaps a better source for that evidence would be the film manufacturers and retailers, and their product selection - are film products being introduced and/or eliminated? Are the manufacturers hiring or laying off? Are they demonstrating growth in sales or declines? etc

 

[faberryman]

Perhaps a better source for that evidence would be the film manufacturers and retailers, and their product selection - are film products being introduced and/or eliminated? Are the manufacturers hiring or laying off? Are they demonstrating growth in sales or declines? etc

I'd rather see prints in galleries than numbers from film manufacturers. I don't think scanned film counts. That's digital.

 

[markjwyatt]

Fair points and I agree, it seems unlikely that a vocational school is where evidence of a film "comeback" (however we define it) would be collected.

Perhaps a better source for that evidence would be the film manufacturers and retailers, and their product selection - are film products being introduced and/or eliminated? Are the manufacturers hiring or laying off? Are they demonstrating growth in sales or declines? etc

This is true. We have some of that information filtering through. We have Film Ferrania, Ilford, and Adox active on this site, as well as ex-Kodak people. Most of it is anecdotal, but It seems there is some positive movement (Ferrania, Adox, Ektachrome, Instax, Impossible Project, Fuji pushing color film) but also some steps backwards (Fuji pulling B&W, delays for the smaller companies, etc.). Probably the best thing we can do individually is to use film and promote it as faberryman implies (personally disagree with his comment on scanned film- this could be a huge part of saving film). This does not exclude us from also using digital technologies.

 

[Berkeley Mike]

The same thing happens in all Fields/Hobbies.....and you are right of course, it gets ridiculous.
Golf with their spike Vs spike-less, Carbon or Metal shaft, Wood Vs Metal heads, etc etc.
Artists with their Oil Vs Acrylic paints, Canvas Vs Whatever material to paint on, etc etc
Guitar players with their Tube Vs Solid State amps Paper Vs Hemp speaker cones, so on and so forth.

I don't think they are pointless. In each of the dichotomies we have a marketplace that supports these aspects. If the marketplace wants to make a buck they will understand the margins and act accordingly or fail, no matter how invested. In that vein I am trying to get to those margins, the things that underpin them, and the real-time value.

Fair points and I agree, it seems unlikely that a vocational school is where evidence of a film "comeback" (however we define it) would be collected.

I am inclined to agree, yet old-time faculty keep referring to "The Comeback" which I find simply conflates with desire. They just sort of blurt it out with a sense of finality (well, you know...film is making a comeback). As conflated the true volume of such a claim can, in that sort of venue, expand to whatever one needs to sustain their point. That is making up facts....don't get me started.

Getting to a real value of film is what will allow some sound sense of capacities and potentials upon which to found programs and markets.

.

 

[Berkeley Mike]

This is true. We have some of that information filtering through. We have Film Ferrania, Ilford, and Adox active on this site, as well as ex-Kodak people. Most of it is anecdotal, but It seems there is some positive movement (Ferrania, Adox, Ektachrome, Instax, Impossible Project, Fuji pushing color film) but also some steps backwards (Fuji pulling B&W, delays for the smaller companies, etc.). Probably the best thing we can do individually is to use film and promote it as faberryman implies (personally disagree with his comment on scanned film- this could be a huge part of saving film). This does not exclude us from also using digital technologies.

And these folks aren't working overtime based upon some "belief" in film (though individuals may). Investors/funders need more than that.

 

[removed account4]

I am inclined to agree, yet old-time faculty keep referring to "The Comeback" which I find simply conflates with desire. They just sort of blurt it out with a sense of finality (well, you know...film is making a comeback). As conflated the true volume of such a claim can, in that sort of venue, expand to whatever one needs to sustain their point. That is making up facts....don't get me started.

Getting to a real value of film is what will allow some sound sense of capacities and potentials upon which to found programs and markets.

IDK

at the local community college near me the photo 1 classes seemed FULL and the teacher was telling me how excited the kids
were taking classes that weren't digital, she seemed really upbeat. i was friends with one of the people in the class and he was
amassing MF cameras and borrowing some and shooting vision3 film and super8 movies ... the mini lab person down the street from me
( the sole survivor in the area for at least 20 or 30 miles radius ) just invested in a new processor that can handle 120 film because the
last remaining pro labs that used to do special order processing for her ( from what i can gather ) stopped processing 120 film .. it was a heck of an investment
and i don't think that she would have made it if there wasn't an "uptick" in film use ... i went to one of the last camera store in the area last week to get some more
120 sleeves and they has a whole shelf of new and refurbed "new/original polaroid?" cameras and tons of film and while i was there people were calling them
asking about leica m3 lenses and bodies ... and i was getting instax film for my daughter who lives her mini at staples around the 23 of december and they were
nearly out of film ... no clue if these things mean there IS a comeback or if supply had dwindled and people are just buying and taking classes now and it seems
like and increase, or if my photofinisher was buying a 2nd maching cause her other one was on its last legs and this was cheaper than searching for parts
and downtime / losing business while the old one getting fixed but there does seem to be a come back .. but its kind of funny cause it really hadn't gone anywhere ..
i still have only seen maybe 1 or 2 film users actually shooting in about 3 or 4 years, ... not really sure where they are ... but i guess they are there...

 

[faberryman]

at the local community college near me the photo 1 classes seemed FULL and the teacher was telling me how excited the kids were taking classes that weren't digital, she seemed really upbeat.

I've been in those Film 1 classes and seen something similar. Then they don't sign up for Film II and subsequent film classes. Film I and II are both black and white classes. We don't offer color film processing classes. We do have a Noritsu machine so we can print RA4 from digital files up to 8x10. They use it in the Color Theory class because it is cheaper than inkjet. I have never met anyone doing their own color film processing or color printing. I have not done it since the days of Cibachrome. I work primarily in gelatin silver, lith, and platinum/palladium. Perhaps all those eager Film I students shift to color film and scan. I don't think that is the case, but it's possible. I have just never seen any of that kind of work from them. They usually just filter back to the digital classes. But I am just one data point. Perhaps Berkeley Mike sees something different.

 

[Berkeley Mike]

IDK

at the local community college near me the photo 1 classes seemed FULL and the teacher was telling me how excited the kids
were taking classes that weren't digital, she seemed really upbeat. i was friends with one of the people in the class and he was
amassing MF cameras and borrowing some and shooting vision3 film and super8 movies ... the mini lab person down the street from me
( the sole survivor in the area for at least 20 or 30 miles radius ) just invested in a new processor that can handle 120 film because the
last remaining pro labs that used to do special order processing for her ( from what i can gather ) stopped processing 120 film .. it was a heck of an investment
and i don't think that she would have made it if there wasn't an "uptick" in film use ... i went to one of the last camera store in the area last week to get some more
120 sleeves and they has a whole shelf of new and refurbed "new/original polaroid?" cameras and tons of film and while i was there people were calling them
asking about leica m3 lenses and bodies ... and i was getting instax film for my daughter who lives her mini at staples around the 23 of december and they were
nearly out of film ... no clue if these things mean there IS a comeback or if supply had dwindled and people are just buying and taking classes now and it seems
like and increase, or if my photofinisher was buying a 2nd maching cause her other one was on its last legs and this was cheaper than searching for parts
and downtime / losing business while the old one getting fixed but there does seem to be a come back .. but its kind of funny cause it really hadn't gone anywhere ..
i still have only seen maybe 1 or 2 film users actually shooting in about 3 or 4 years, ... not really sure where they are ... but i guess they are there...

Awesome. This lab person has feet on the ground and skin in the game. As for supply, the last man standing can be busy. All in all, there is also a need for community to pull everyone together and share. In person, at the shop or in class, stuff is far richer than stuff online though the the depth and breadth online is hard to beat. As for the class, it is great to hear the enthusiasm. I hope they can find good cameras that they can rely on; balky gear undermines a class. Please keep us posted as the semester progresses.

I wish them all luck.

 

[Berkeley Mike]

Our local community college offers four film photography classes: Film 1, Film 2, Alternate Processes, and Special Projects. No special certificate is offered in film. Film 1 is offered in the Fall and usually makes, though there is some attrition. Film II is offered in the Spring, and sometimes makes and sometimes doesn't. Alternate Processes is offered in the Fall if during the preceding Spring Film II made, and enough Film II students express an interest. Special Projects is offered in the Spring if during the preceding Fall Alternate Processes made, and enough Alternative Processes students express an interest. Class size is generally limited to 15, though if there is enough interest, a few can be added or a second session is offered. It takes 8 to make a class. At least one section of Film I makes each year. Film II often doesn't make, and Alternate Process and Special Projects have only been offered once each in the seven years I have been associated with the program. It is entirely student driven. All of the film classes are taught by one instructor. She has an MFA in photography and spent a year working as Sally Mann's assistant. The various digital classes are all offered regularly and always make. Based on my experience, it is the cost of film and paper, and the time commitment, which are a drag on the film program, that and the fact that virtually all the professional photographers in the area are shooting digital. It's hard enough to find jobs and earn income as a digital photographer. Those that do occasionally shoot film are working on personal projects with the hope of getting a show and selling some prints. We all know how that usually works out. There is also a small group of film and alternate process photographers associated with a local community darkroom. None are professional photographers.

Might I get the name of this college?

 

[George Mann]

I have heard at my college, all too often, that I have tried to kill film in our program because I challenged its value to the entire program. Film classes do not breed success in students. The workflow is too time-consuming, it has very limited vocational application, few students get to the finish line, and fewer yet go one to take more classes in the department. It added no value to the overall program and I recommended that we pull film out of the core requirements for our vocational degree. Film folk were beside themselves; this would certainly kill film.

In the meantime 2 Deans saw the poor performance of the entry-level film classes. 256 students enrolled in Intro to film, with a substantial uptick in Fall 2017. Yet only 54 finished the class.

Those who have failed at photography should be considering a different vocation or hobby.

Also, its time to properly draw a distinction between photography (film, metal and glass plate), and graphic arts (all things digital).

 

[Berkeley Mike]

Those who have failed at photography should be considering a different vocation or hobby.

I don't understand this reference to failure. Care to focus this more?