The comeback?

blockend · Sep 6, 2018

Film-Niko said:
People who invested thousands of dollars in digital gear because they believed in the "film is dead" propaganda, can't stand the fact that film has not dissappeard, and is now gaining interest again.

Do you have any evidence for that?

Film-Niko said:
Their "wishful thinking" it that film has no future, because then they can justify for themselves that they have paid so much for digital gear.

Digital gear is relatively inexpensive shot for shot. If you bought the latest £2k camera every couple of years and traded in your old model, it would still be less expensive than shooting film.

Film-Niko said:
Fact is that the market for digital cameras has collapsed by 85% in the last years.

That's a different subject. Two things are killing digital camera production, smart phones, and lack of digital camera innovation. Most people would be hard pressed to tell a 2018 digital photograph from a 2008 one under normal conditions. iPhones provide everything non-enthusiasts want from a camera, and make up much of the vlogging market.

Film-Niko said:
And instant film is now a huge mass volume market again, being much much bigger than the market for DSLM / MILC cameras.

What are you comparing? All MILC cameras vs Instax and Polaroid cameras, or the popularity of instant films? A typical MILC runs between x6 to x20 the price of an instant film camera. Instant photography is a growing niche but it hasn't returned to the professional film ranks.

Film-Niko said:
The "film is dead" prayers only demonstrate their lack of knowledge of the current photography market developments.

Film is dead to most people, no question. They don't use it and are surprised why anyone else does.

C Jensen · Sep 6, 2018

Digital is a passing fad.

Film-Niko · Sep 6, 2018

blockend said:
I read that companies had abandoned processing because Fuji, which were the most popular in store quick lab machines, were no longer making them and parts and servicing weren't available.

Then you have just read the permanent misinformation and lies given by the "film is dead" prayers. Which are extremely active here on photrio.
Just have a look at the Fuji homepage:
http://www.fujifilm.com/products/photofinishing/digital_minilabs/
You want a new Fuji minilab for RA-4 prints? Just buy it, see above.
Noritsu is also making digital minilabs. Just some weeks ago they have introduced a complete new and improved minilab for RA-4 prints!
Colenta is producing new film processors (roller-transport) for professional labs. And Hostert is making dip-and-dunk processing machines for films.
Do yourself a favour and visit Photokina: There are lots of independent parts manufacturers for minilab machines from Fuji, Noritsu, Agfa.

Ste_S · Sep 6, 2018

blockend said:
Digital gear is relatively inexpensive shot for shot. If you bought the latest £2k camera every couple of years and traded in your old model, it would still be less expensive than shooting film.

The market has completely flipped with second hand camera gear. Film cameras used to be cheap, and partially explains the pickup of them by younger photographers.
Now, film cameras are getting increasingly expensive whilst the market is awash with cheap second hand digital cameras.

Heck, I use old micro 4/3 tech and you can pick up perfectly fine bodies for <£100.
Digital is much, much cheaper than film, both in start up and ongoing costs.

Film-Niko · Sep 6, 2018

Cholentpot said:
Local place stopped processing E-6 because a part broke and fuji stopped supporting the machine.

Then they probably have not done a proper research for spare parts: There are specialised companies offering spare parts and refurbished film processors and minilabs. And there are lots of independent parts manufacturers for minilab machines from Fuji, Noritsu, Agfa.
And Colenta is producing new E6 roller-transport film processors.
And Hostert is producing new E6 dip-and-dunk film processors.

blockend · Sep 6, 2018

Film-Niko said:
Then you have just read the permanent misinformation and lies given by the "film is dead" prayers. Which are extremely active here on photrio.

I asked the local lab I used why she was closing, and that's what the lady told me. I did some research and it was the same story. Supermarkets were stripping out their C41 machines because there was no profit in maintaining them. A big corporation are not going to rely on independent parts manufacturers to fix broken down machines in their stores. Most were run on a rent and servicing basis, rather than reliance on local mechanics for maintenance. If a service returns a profit, a business will keep it going. Love and hate for film has no bearing on the bottom line.

warden · Sep 6, 2018

RalphLambrecht said:
there are some folks who have invested a ton of time ,experience and effort in learning analog photography. they can't stand the thought of it disappearing and their wishful thinking claims the renaissance of film photography. the truth is: it's as good as dead and only a niece market know-nothing wrong with that but ,it's time to forget about it and get onto the digital train before it leaves the station.

Er, come again? What train? How am I being left behind by enjoying photography with film? Film still works, is affordable and fun. I can't find the train, even though I enjoy digital photography too.

blockend · Sep 6, 2018

Ste_S said:
The market has completely flipped with second hand camera gear. Film cameras used to be cheap, and partially explains the pickup of them by younger photographers.
Now, film cameras are getting increasingly expensive whilst the market is awash with cheap second hand digital cameras.

Heck, I use old micro 4/3 tech and you can pick up perfectly fine bodies for <£100.
Digital is much, much cheaper than film, both in start up and ongoing costs.

It's fairer to say the demand for quality old cameras and lenses are rising. A Canon EOS 650 or a Nikon F501 can be had for the same price as a digital point and shoot - virtually nothing. Any decent lens is as likely to end up on a mirrorless digital camera as a film body. It's certainly true I'll never again be able to buy a Canon body and a box full of mint FD prime lenses for £100, as I did 10 years ago. You only have to look at film era lenses that fit digital bodies, like Canon EOS or Minolta/Sony, to see the premium such glass attracts.

warden · Sep 6, 2018

marcofimages said:
Is film photography coming back? Do you have any story to share? Either positive or negative?
This thread is meant to collect some anecdotal evidence on the subject. Please feel free to contribute with any personal story of "feeling" about the topic. I would love to hear about that.
Marco

Rather than "coming back" I think it's just right-sizing with the help of the internet and cheap shipping. I don't think there will ever be a time when easy/quick processing will be available in all towns like it was once upon a time, but the market for film use is still large enough to be profitable for manufacturers and processors that can service current levels of consumption. It's not rocket science, but it does take quite a while for an industry that used to measure film production by the mile to adjust to smaller volumes. Kodak has been publicly addressing this smaller volume issue with the reintroduction of P3200 and Ektachrome, and time will tell if they and others can operate profitably.

Film-Niko · Sep 6, 2018

blockend said:
What are you comparing? All MILC cameras vs Instax and Polaroid cameras, or the popularity of instant films?

You find all the official data for digital film camera sales here:
http://cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html
http://cipa.jp/stats/dc-2017_e.html

All mirrorless camera manufacturers together have sold about 4.1 million camera units in 2017.
And Fujifilm alone has sold more than 7 million instax cameras in 2017. And then you have to add the instant cameras sold by Polaroid Originals, Lomography, MINT etc.
As DSLRs sales are further declining and instant film cameras are further increasing, 2018 will be probably the year in which instant film camera sales are probably even surpassing DSLR sales, too. At the introduction of the SQ6 Instax camera this spring Fuji said for each camera the sell 4 film packs p.a.
Fuji sold more than 25 million instax cameras in the last five years. Go figure.....

blockend said:
Instant photography is a growing niche but it hasn't returned to the professional film ranks.

See above, it is not a niche market, it is a huge mass market. Already for years.

Film-Niko · Sep 6, 2018

jawarden said:
Er, come again? What train? How am I being left behind by enjoying photography with film? Film still works, is affordable and fun. I can't find the train, even though I enjoy digital photography too.

+1.
Exactly.

blockend · Sep 6, 2018

Listening to Phil Steblay who runs TheDarkroom.com on the FPP podcast, his company still use dunk and dip machines. These are preferred to the more common types that attach one film to another, and run through various squeegees.

David Brown · Sep 6, 2018

The problem with “anecdotal” evidence is that (true or not) it doesn’t prove anything, either way! Having said that, here’s mine:

I teach beginning and intermediate darkroom classes. My next beginner class is this Sunday. Six folks, including one father/ daughter combo. Most of my students do not intend to build their own darkroom, but want to learn the processes. There are a couple of rental Darkrooms in the metro area (Dallas) and another is on the horizon. The local Ilford dealer reports his sales up each year for the past 5 years.

I have no idea what the situation will be in 5 or 10 years. However, 5 and 10 years ago, we didn’t know either.

blockend · Sep 6, 2018

This thread is going off topic. The OPs question is whether film is making a comeback. It isn't who loves film the most, or whether outliers are representative of the bigger picture. If film dropped to 0.3% of it's 1990s production levels and has risen to 0.5%, I'm as pleased as anyone, though I suspect that guess flatters the numbers wildly. It shows no sign of filling the other 99.5%, and camera production (with the exception of Instant photography which I mentioned in my first post!) is as near non-existent as makes no difference. Only the most evangelical proselytisers would claim film is a mainstream product in 2018, but it keeps people like ourselves sufficiently amused to permit a few dinosaur/bespoke producers to carry on, so long as we don't demand research, innovation or new cameras.

wyofilm · Sep 6, 2018

There will always be an eager market for film photography, but that market may not remain large enough to sustain film, chemical, and camera manufacturers. It might end up being a sheet, plate world again. I'm ok with that.

Still, digital photography is going to continue to see problems. The iphone has killed the point and shoot market (good for Apple, bad for Nikon). I'm also thinking the low end dslr and mirrorless markets are toast. Really, the line has all but disappeared between digital stills and still captures of video for the better digital cameras. The casual digital photographer will be looking at rather steep outlays for equipment. Will they step up to the plate, wallets in hand? Nikon hopes so.

slackercrurster · Sep 6, 2018

Eric Rose said:
For the ardent film types it never left. For those that started out on digital it's a new thing and seems to be gaining some traction. For those of us that dumped film for digital are sticking their toes back in because they miss it. And then there is those that have never done anything more than a cellphone pic that want something different. Which one are you? I take that back, it seems you have some large format vids up. I will have to check them out.

There is a large selection of film products available these days. While your local drug store might not carry it anymore there are dedicated camera stores who still stock it and of course lots of online availability.

Good summation, concur.

blockend · Sep 6, 2018

wyofilm said:
The casual digital photographer will be looking at rather steep outlays for equipment. We they step up to the plate, wallets in hand? Nikon hopes so.

Hard to say. Most manufacturers are moving production from Japan to China, which may give them a few years breathing space until they face the inevitable. There's no shortage of sturm und drang at the mirrorless announcements if YouTube is anything to go by. How many of those commentators are professional photographers, dentists and comfortably-off retirees Canikon want to attract to the new ecosystem, and who are the empty vessels of the online desert, is anyone's guess. My feeling is they can't all do well, and some high profile manufacturers are going to the wall in the next decade.

Alan Edward Klein · Sep 6, 2018

Princeton University Art School still provides analog photography courses for their undergraduates.
https://registrar.princeton.edu/course-offerings/course_details.xml?courseid=007220&term=1192

Alan Edward Klein · Sep 6, 2018

Princeton also has a photography course where they shoot in film and scan it for processing afterwards, combining both disciplines. It's a chance to see how both processes work in evolving technologies. Sounds what a lot of us here are now doing. Maybe you can get a job as an instructor at Princeton.

"This course will examine photography’s constant negotiation of evolving technologies. Students shoot black and white and color film and scan and print it digitally to broaden their photographic strategies, their technical skills, and their understanding of the medium of photography. A range of tools will be introduced, including analogue film development, scanning negatives, Photoshop processing, and inkjet printing. The course will require independent and collaborative assignments and critiques augmented by field trips, readings, and discussion."
http://arts.princeton.edu/courses/intermediate-photography-fa-18/

Alan Edward Klein · Sep 6, 2018

Here's a Princeton student's art thesis that includes analog photography and Polaroid photography as well as other elements. What's interesting is the student did not intend to major in Art at Princeton until she took the analog photography course. Certainly a powerful statement for the value of analog photography. I'm sure if the OP searches, they'll find many universities where film photography has a place similar to Princeton.
http://arts.princeton.edu/news/2016...-exhibition-olivia-adechi-opens-lewis-center/

jtk · Sep 6, 2018

Poisson Du Jour said:
Has it been somewhere...??

IMO Photrio is helping by growing a broader, more photo-oriented, less habit-addicted "community" than did any purely analog resource. "Rising tide lifts all boats."

moose10101 · Sep 6, 2018

Film-Niko said:
It's just the other way round:
People who invested thousands of dollars in digital gear because they believed in the "film is dead" propaganda, can't stand the fact that film has not dissappeard, and is now gaining interest again.
Their "wishful thinking" it that film has no future, because then they can justify for themselves that they have paid so much for digital gear.

Fact is that the market for digital cameras has collapsed by 85% in the last years. Lots of digital OEM camera manufacturers had to stop production, and even the first big player (Samsung) left the digital camera market.
And instant film is now a huge mass volume market again, being much much bigger than the market for DSLM / MILC cameras. The MILC market was about 4.1 million units in 2017, the market for instant film cameras was more than 7 million cameras (!!!) in 2017.

The "film is dead" prayers only demonstrate their lack of knowledge of the current photography market developments.

The greatest myth in every one of these film-vs-digital threads is the idea that digital users give a rat’s ass about the status of film. The only people who actually care are a small minority of film users who, sadly, need to convince each other that digital is inferior, transient, and maybe not even real photography.

Have fun with that.

tedr1 · Sep 6, 2018

Here's your film revival, the "film revival" put KODAK in bankruptcy!

for amateurs fortunately this is not an either-or-choice because both are available

my photographic skills have improved dramatically since adopting digital, immediate feedback is something I find very helpful

wyofilm · Sep 6, 2018

moose10101 said:
The greatest myth in every one of these film-vs-digital threads is the idea that digital users give a rat’s ass about the status of film. The only people who actually care are a small minority of film users who, sadly, need to convince each other that digital is inferior, transient, and maybe not even real photography.

Have fun with that.

I think that you are absolutely right that the dig folks don't give a second though to film, which is fine. The thing that digital photographers will care about is the disruptions that are taking place in the digital camera world. I have bought a half of dozen point and shoot digital cameras over the years, a nikon d90, and a fuji X100s. More or less, they are all disposable cameras. My d90 is now electronically flaky, but it did well for many years. The Fuji worked for several years, but now can no longer properly retain the memory card. My satisfaction with Fujifilm in repairing it is nil (another story).

Quality film cameras can last a very long time (a real benefit to us dinosaurs). I do not believe the same can be said about modern cameras. Therefore, I believe the modern dig cameras are (like all electronics) semi-durable goods. A scheduled replacement cost of a dig camera body every 5 years is pretty steep in my opinion. I guess I will be looking to replace the X100s, but with what? I'm not excited about laying out $1000+ for what might well be a 5 year camera. I might just keep shooting film and get by with my old iphone for dig pics.

I doubt current digital photographers will migrate to film because of dissatisfaction with the state of the digital marketplace. I bet that there will just be an overall contraction in the world of amateur photographers.

faberryman · Sep 6, 2018

wyofilm said:
I think that you are absolutely right that the dig folks don't give a second though to film, which is fine. The thing that digital photographers will care about is the disruptions that are taking place in the digital camera world. I have bought a half of dozen point and shoot digital cameras over the years, a nikon d90, and a fuji X100s. More or less, they are all disposable cameras. My d90 is now electronically flaky, but it did well for many years. The Fuji worked for several years, but now can no longer properly retain the memory card. My satisfaction with Fujifilm in repairing it is nil (another story).

Quality film cameras can last a very long time (a real benefit to us dinosaurs). I do not believe the same can be said about modern cameras. Therefore, I believe the modern dig cameras are (like all electronics) semi-durable goods. A scheduled replacement cost of a dig camera body every 5 years is pretty steep in my opinion. I guess I will be looking to replace the X100s, but with what? I'm not excited about laying out $1000+ for what might well be a 5 year camera. I might just keep shooting film and get by with my old iphone for dig pics.

I doubt current digital photographers will migrate to film because of dissatisfaction with the state of the digital marketplace. I bet that there will just be an overall contraction in the world of amateur photographers.

I'm not sure everyone has the same expectation that you do that a digital camera will last more than five years. It is an electronic device like a cell phone or laptop or tablet. Upgrading a camera body (but keeping your lenses) is assumed. Look how readily many digital photographers replace their working digital cameras. There sure is a buzz about the new mirrorless cameras announced in the last two weeks. How many photographers are going to buy a Canon R or Nikon Z6/Z7 when they have something working perfectly in the bag. This is nothing new. Back in the day, photographers upgraded their film cameras all the time to the latest model.

The comeback?

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