the beauty of scanning black and white in color

[shutterfinger]

The V800 has an actual resolution of 2300 and is unable to resolve the grain

3rd party wives tale. 3rd party testers do not use a good enough test target to get the higher dpi rating the manufacturer states.
Does it matter to film scanning, likely not.
If its true resolution was that low it would not pick up the micro printing in paper currency and the software would not need the currency identification block that is there.

 

[faberryman]

3rd party wives tale. 3rd party testers do not use a good enough test target to get the higher dpi rating the manufacturer states.

Then why, using the same test target, do other film scanners test with higher resolution? I have personally tested the Epson V700 against the Pacific Image Prime Film XE. The later tests at 4300 and clearly resolves the grain. The V700 does not

 

[shutterfinger]

Made 2 scans of the same negative (FP4+) on the Imacon.
-16 bit grayscale 6300dpi tiff file size 104Mb
-16 bit rgb 6300dpi tiff file size 312Mb (there is no 24 or 48 bit option in the aged software)

16 bit RGB per channel is 48 bit as its called in newer software.

What should I look for?

In PS open the 16 bit RGB then look at each channel separately. You can make any adjustment to a channel that you would make to the composite. It should give one better control over the tonality and separation of tones in the image.

 

[Frank53]

In PS open the 16 bit RGB then look at each channel separately. You can make any adjustment to a channel that you would make to the composite. It should give one better control over the tonality and separation of tones in the image.

So it gives you a better way to control tonality etc. I use Silver Efex Pro for that. It is a perfect little digital darkroom. But I’ll have a look at the channels when I come back from my phototrip to Dorset next week.
Regards,
Frank

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

The V800 has an actual resolution of 2300 and is unable to resolve the grain. Your images should look smooth, albeit with less detail than with a higher resolution scanner.

Wouldn't that depend on the film? Also, how does scanned film change from standard grain like in Tri-X vs. tubular grain as in Tmax?

 

[shutterfinger]

Then why, using the same test target, do other film scanners test with higher resolution? I have personally tested the Epson V700 against the Pacific Image Prime Film XE. The later tests at 4300 and clearly resolves the grain. The V700 does not

I replaced a Microtek 8700 with a Epson V700. I should have kept the Microtek.
I do not trust 3rd party testing especially when they use a 1951USAF test target instead of a ISO12233 https://www.graphics.cornell.edu/~westin/misc/res-chart.html
Target type and test procedure will produce varying results. I'm not familiar with the Prime Film scanner.

 

[hsandler]

The only reason I can see theoretically for scanning a black and white negative in colour is if the scanning optics has some chromatic aberration or pixel alignment imperfection such that one of the colour channels resolves better or with less noise than the combination with the others. If that is the case, then if you throw away the other two channels, and represent the remaining channel as grayscale, you may end up with a better scan.

I tried this with an Epson V750, and didn’t see an improvement. https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/a-comparison-of-some-flatbeds-and-holders.152191/

 

[slackercrurster]

OP...do it both ways.

If no tone present in BW then it is BW scan.

 

[Wallendo]

If using VueScan in professional mode, you can choose whether the software creates a monochrome image from the red, blue, green, or infrared channel. I have never noticed any real difference with any of the options.

I primarily scan negatives and let the software choose which channel to use. Commercial negatives were designed to be printed on B&W paper, so any color information in the negative is not particularly relevant.

On the other hand, if using a staining developer, the silver particles and stain might scan differently, and differing techniques might yield different results.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

all i can say is im not an expert .. i does what i do and i never scan black and white
prints or film in "black and white" mode in the scanner. im not a purist you might say.
and the results i get are beautiful. i don't know enough about scanner technology or
film to understand why but the file ends up with hues and tones that i couldn't even
imagine putting there myself.
anyone else scan in color and then do what you need to do ?

If I’m using my flatbed, I scan in grayscale from the blue channel in Vuescan. Believe it or not, but if you scan at the scanners native sensor resolution with the blue channel, more detail is resolved onto the sensor because the blue channel is shorter wavelengths. This is super easy to test if using Vuescan. Make a grayscale scan with the red channel, then make the same scan with the blue channel and compare. The blue channel scan is visibly sharper with more fine detail.

 

[removed account4]

thanks adrian !

a few weeks ago i took some negative scans ( all 3 channels ) separated them into 3 using PS
and discarded everything but the blue channel it was the best of all 3
i remember when i used vue scan a lot they suggest to do exactly as you suggest, only scanning the blue ..
thanks for reminding me !
john

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

thanks adrian !

a few weeks ago i took some negative scans ( all 3 channels ) separated them into 3 using PS
and discarded everything but the blue channel it was the best of all 3
i remember when i used vue scan a lot they suggest to do exactly as you suggest, only scanning the blue ..
thanks for reminding me !
john

Can you post samples?

 

[removed account4]

hi alan

some of my last uploads ( not the flowers ) have been like that
the skyline of boston some of the architectural photos ... you have to scan in color
then go to "color channels" then "split" you will get the 3 images and you can pick the better one ...
at least in this group, the blue had all the details and the image the other 2 not so much ... you
can't tell from the uploads i put in the gallery becasue i might have added color &c .. sorry my examples aren't clear ..
john

 

[jtk]

Interesting to watch concerns in these posts morphing from concern about tones and stain in b&w film to desire to avoid grain sharpness (remember grain focusing for enlargement?) ...then to resolution of finest detail..

Not wanting soft grain I've always avoided developer with sodium sulfite. I like Rodinal/stand. If i want fine grain I use fine grain film. Both my Nikon V and for 120 etc my even more ancient Epson 3200 with Betterscanning neg holders make those distinctions nicely. I use NIK Silver Efex, but have never needed to. Stained negs sometimes contribute tonality so those might want color scan...if to be inkjet printed as color.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Yes, I scan in colour, then dump the red and blue channels. Green channel is slightly sharper.

 

[jtk]

I'm guessing that some here rarely view the results of their scans larger than 11x@17 or from modern Canon or Epson inkjet pigment printers.

If those folks are issuing opinions on scanning without evaluating on a proper printer they might want to re-evaluate.

 

[removed account4]

maybe, or maybe they just like what they do and do what they like..
not sure what is wrong with that .. soft grain hard grain no grain
details, mush, tint, stain, tone color bw 3 channel 1 channel
enlarged to poster size reduced to a thumbnail sketch
printed in ink or pigment dye sub, light jet, zerox internegative
and the list goes on ...

no point in doing it if you don't want to, ... unless your name is yosarian
or you are handcuffed by a client

 

[jtk]

..."no point in doing"..what ? Seemed at first that the OT wanted responses :-(

 

[removed account4]

i suggested nothing more than there is no 1 size fits all ..
and if someone doesn't want to print large or with pigment to
see how their images look there is no need to. printing large
maybe great for some people / some subjects &c but it
isn't necessary ... just like it isn't necessary to scan in b/w
or use off the shelf developers or use tripod all the time
or worship german lenses, and grain or bokeh &c but if it is what someone wants to do
good for them .. no point doing things you don't like ...

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

How does Epson change the scan to BW? Does it use one particular color channel? Or all three? Or something else?

 

[jtk]

i suggested nothing more than there is no 1 size fits all ..
and if someone doesn't want to print large or with pigment to
see how their images look there is no need to. printing large
maybe great for some people / some subjects &c but it
isn't necessary ... just like it isn't necessary to scan in b/w
or use off the shelf developers or use tripod all the time
or worship german lenses, and grain or bokeh &c but if it is what someone wants to do
good for them .. no point doing things you don't like ...[/QUOT

Nobody said you had to do anything. Chill. This is is a technical Forum, more than a place for faux Miss Manners.

 

[jtk]

If scanning to make inkjet prints it may be a fun idea to mix ones own pigments for B&W...that's been done for a long time by some of our compatriots...made especially good sense with non-pigment Epsons but I don't think it's significant with pigment Epsons and Canons.

Paper choice can be much more to the point for showing finest detail...prints can obviously be relevant if pursuing best scanning technique.

Another choice: if the intention is to make B&W prints it can be visually effective to print B&W using all pigment colors rather than selecting Black Only. However that uses a LOT more pigment ($) to achieve black of same density than by printing black-only.

Sometimes the use of a warm-toned inkjet paper with black-only can be as visually effective as creating a warm black with the full array of colored pigments.

This may have everything to do with how you scan...if you only use one channel to scan you lose the opportunity to subtly adjust the inkjet color of your black...if that's of interest.

 

[removed account4]

How does Epson change the scan to BW? Does it use one particular color channel? Or all three? Or something else?

alan
i have no clue, im just here for the ride as they say ..

==

as they say, whatever floats your boat ..

 

[jtk]

There's always the distinction between happy talk and results, but that distinction is not always in Photrio's wheelhouse.

This is a social medium, and as such can sometimes reward "whatevever" more than fundamental values, such as technical excellence... which has mostly been the quest of this particular thread.

 

[jtk]

.