The APUG Membership Council

Roger Hicks said:

Those who tell you that you aren't entitled to an opinion unless you are a subscriber are not uncommon, especially on other forums, though equally, some seem to think that being a subscriber means that their own opinions are entitled to be given far more weight than they sometimes deserve.

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I wouldn't know what other forums you're talking about, since this is the first (and probably the last) forum I've belonged to that has a subscription option. But if it's common here to tell people they're not entitled to an opinion unless they're a subscriber, I still say that's at odds with the stated goal of being welcoming to newcomers.

As to thin skins... I have something of a reputation for being as tenacious as a pit bull when it comes to issues that matter to me, so I'm not sure thin-skinned would be an accurate way to label me. But it's also true that I don't tend to stick around where I've been told I'm not wanted, when no such issues are at stake and it doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

And after all, it goes both ways. When I said that I'm comfortable with the understanding that I don't "belong" in the general forums, that was an acknowledgement of my lack of fit with the culture, as well. My mistake, that prompted my initial post to this thread, was supposing that I might not be the only one who felt that way.

I seem to be doing rather a spectacularly poor job of explaining myself, and I'm going to quit before I get any farther behind.
kt

Katharine Thayer said:

I wouldn't know what other forums you're talking about, since this is the first (and probably the last) forum I've belonged to that has a subscription option. But if it's common here to tell people they're not entitled to an opinion unless they're a subscriber, I still say that's at odds with the stated goal of being welcoming to newcomers.

As to thin skins... I have something of a reputation for being as tenacious as a pit bull when it comes to issues that matter to me, so I'm not sure thin-skinned would be an accurate way to label me. But it's also true that I don't tend to stick around where I've been told I'm not wanted, when no such issues are at stake and it doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

And after all, it goes both ways. When I said that I'm comfortable with the understanding that I don't "belong" in the general forums, that was an acknowledgement of my lack of fit with the culture, as well. My mistake, that prompted my initial post to this thread, was supposing that I might not be the only one who felt that way.

I seem to be doing rather a spectacularly poor job of explaining myself, and I'm going to quit before I get any farther behind.
kt

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Katherine;
First of all, welcome. I pretty much always look for new members in the "Hi, I'm new here" forum thread, and for the most part, welcome them there. The great thing about that thread is that it gives everyone here (and there are well over 21,000) a chance to see the new name, realize it is a new name, and get a feel for the types of processes, etc that person is interested in so like-minded folks can say "Hey, me too!" and engage you in discussions that are aimed toward your interests. I am pretty sure that if you had taken this route (and believe me, it's not too late) you would have had a better first impression.

When you said this: "But if it's common here to tell people they're not entitled to an opinion unless they're a subscriber, I still say that's at odds with the stated goal of being welcoming to newcomers." I looked back at Roger's post to see what he'd said, and he never said that only subscribers here are entitled to an opinion. Heck, everyone knows that opinions are like noses... everyone has one.

I will address one more point of your last post...
"But it's also true that I don't tend to stick around where I've been told I'm not wanted, when no such issues are at stake and it doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

And after all, it goes both ways. When I said that I'm comfortable with the understanding that I don't "belong" in the general forums, that was an acknowledgement of my lack of fit with the culture, as well. "

I'm pretty sure no one has said you do not belong here, or that you are not wanted. If this happened in a thread you were participating in, then that's pretty PFC (par for the course) for a huge place like this. After all, you can see just by this thread alone that there are more than a few who have no problem saying things here that range from nice to confrontational. It's just a slice of the vastly diverse group here.

So I hope you will stick around, get to know the people here, and find the niche your website indicates that you will fill nicely. You've got tons to share!

Katharine Thayer said:

But if it's common here to tell people they're not entitled to an opinion unless they're a subscriber, I still say that's at odds with the stated goal of being welcoming to newcomers.

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There are probably folks here who will tell you you're not entitled to an opinion even if you wrote the syllabus for the course and such people, whoever they are, inhabit every venue on the web where discussions take place. But, there is absolutely no such 'common' admonishment here whatsoever. Opine away before you pay, or wait to share till a later day. Okay.....I'll take my nap now.

I seem to remember that I only introduced myself after 500 posts...

Even I don't recommend leaving it that late. But there is no such thing as "too late"!

Katharine,

I'll back up what Jeanette said, and add that I've had a quick look at the web site you link to under your signature and see that you have much to contribute to this online community. So please keep hanging out!

For what it's worth, I've been a member/subscriber here for a few years but since I tend not to post much unless I have something real to contribute or - more often - a smartass comment to make, I have often felt my presence is dismissed as well. But I don't care; I've learned a lot here, and if I have the opportunity to help someone else the way I've been helped so much the better. Just as with other forums there always seems to be a clique of a dozen or so regulars who just like to hear themselves talk (or I guess see themselves type) and they seem to be wary of any new voices. But here at APUG I have definitely experienced much less of that.

Joe

Katherine,
I have had more than a few people ignore me when I wrote something or offered an opinion and often felt discounted. I've always been sensitive to being ignored, "Do anything to me but don't ignore me" type attitude. I have decided to look at the whole issue as it's the people who are less than polite not the site that is to blame. There are loads of others who are eager to discuss anything or offer any kind of advice here. I guess when you gather this many people together you'll get a goodly number of odd balls and other types. Some people here are able to present themselves as much more knowledgeable than they really are too, and get off on being haughty. It's the internet after all. I have to say I too have learned more here than any other thing I have done to better myself in photography.

I have to say I too have learned more here than any other thing I have done to better myself in photography.

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Absolutely true in my case as well. With the added benefit of meeting (virtually and in person) a large number of very nice people from around the world. One of the site's strengths is that there are differing opinions on a number of matters, some related to photography, some not. Just like in the real world.

Gay Larson said:

Katherine,
I have had more than a few people ignore me when I wrote something or offered an opinion and often felt discounted. I've always been sensitive to being ignored.

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Nicely put, Gay.
Your observation is true of posting in the range of photographic forums (fora?), and is perhaps also true of how many less fequent posters feel.
The trick to having a strong self belief may be to develop a thick skin, and also recognise that you can and do hold a valid view!
Best wishes
A

thebanana said:

Absolutely true in my case as well. With the added benefit of meeting (virtually and in person) a large number of very nice people from around the world. One of the site's strengths is that there are differing opinions on a number of matters, some related to photography, some not. Just like in the real world.

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Here! Here! and how else would I from Nevada have possibly met in Toronto, the esteemed Banana from Manitoba, if not for APUG!

What is done is done. Sean owns and runs the site, if he wants help then he asks who he wants. I have yet to see him not ask for input from the community. He did this when the idea first came up. Some liked it and some did not. Now it has happened. As I tell those who are affected by my decisions: We can talk until the end of time but ultimately the decision is mine. Nothing is perfect. If it does not work out it can always be changed".

I think it is time we step out, thicken our skins, realize this is the internet, and see what happens.

I hear Vendala Vunderbust and Hans Uberhung are serving tonight at the Lens and Tripod. Can't think of a better time for a drink. I'm buying.

Chilling Time...

Well, gang,

I just looked outside and there is *absolutely* NO indication that the sky is falling. I've tried, diligently, to find some concrete evidence that the APUG Council is populated by "Black Magicians" anxious to do nefarious deeds to put us "rabble" into misery. No luck there either.

To me, the most reasonable course of action is to wait and see. APUG will either self-destruct in a flash of blue-white light (I've calculated the probablity: 0.000 000 0001); or it will continue, improved and friendlier, more responsive to the needs of its members, and less prone to infantile attacks and kindergarten-style food fights.

I'm as certain that that is Sean's, the Moderators', the Councils' - and by FAR the Greater Majority of everyone else's here - desire as I am sure that the sky is NOT falling. It has been "the mission" ever since I've been here and I have no reason to believe that it has EVER changed - or EVER will.

Let's all relax. We have given a great deal of our time and effort reacting to something that has NOT happened yet.

mark said:

I hear Vendala Vunderbust and Hans Uberhung are serving tonight at the Lens and Tripod. Can't think of a better time for a drink. I'm buying.

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Cheers!!

Somebody really needs to open a bar called The Lens and Tripod, preferably in a quaint but somewhat ominous passageway in a seaside English village, or a foggy London alley.

Oh, and the interior should never meter above an EV 5, even with ISO 400 film!

But then I would have to actually pay for the drinks I am buying.

Another viewpoint

We all come in join and participate in online forums at different levels.

I guess if we talk purely about APUG that means first our computer skills and secondly our photographic skills. By that I mean someone with poor photography skills can appear to be a peer compared with a renowned photographer, if they happen to have one or two good images.

First remember this is a large active but diverse forum made up from beginners, amateurs, in-betweenies, up to pro photographers and the odd long retire photo chemist.

As such we all have different agenda, watch and post on different threads.

So if many of us appear to ignore a thread or two please realise we can't read every word posted every day, and certainly can't respond to them all .

But we all care about making images with film

Ian

Gay Larson said:

Katherine,
I have had more than a few people ignore me when I wrote something or offered an opinion and often felt discounted.

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Ian Grant said:

...
So if many of us appear to ignore a thread or two please realise we can't read every word posted every day, and certainly can't respond to them all .
...

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Although some of us do try - to the detriment of other things like sleep, work and photography...

Jim Chinn said:

I just don't understand how people can get so worked up over a simple internet website. Open the curtains and windows, let in some fresh air and get away from the damn computer for a couple of minutes a day.

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What, you have a life outside the Internet? Joking, right?

TheFlyingCamera said:

Somebody really needs to open a bar called The Lens and Tripod, preferably in a quaint but somewhat ominous passageway in a seaside English village, or a foggy London alley.

Oh, and the interior should never meter above an EV 5, even with ISO 400 film!

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I just hope nobody opens another bar down the street called the 'Pod and Pixel...

Yes you do.

It has to be said Ole is a wiley Moderator who sleeps rarely, and fairly. . .

Ian

Ole said:

Although some of us do try -

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Ole said:

Although some of us do try - to the detriment of other things like sleep, work and photography...

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Mainly work!


Steve.

Ole is everywhere! I don't know how he does it..

MattKing said:

George:

You are royally pissed off about the council. You have expressed your concerns, sometimes vehemently. My only suggestion - pause, breathe deep, and, if you so choose, come back another day with only substantive comments, and not comments about comments made by others.

Sean (and moderators):

Sean's earlier measured response, setting out the history of the matter, was an ideal response to George's slightly more heated approach to the question.

As strong as George words may seem, and as full of emotion as they may be, it seems to me that they are more critical, than inflammatory. I'd hate to see George being excluded from the site, because of how much he appears to care about the site.

Hardly even $0.02 worth, even at the currently high value of the Canadian dollar.

Matt

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Matt,

Thank you for your comments.

Sometimes, trying to express oneself on a website leads to more confusion and misunderstanding than enlightenment!

Actually, my comments were not even intended to rise to the level of criticism. They were advanced in support of the concept but curious about an alternative means to achieving it.

However, as you PM'd me, sometimes we lawyer-types get too closely focused on process and procedures whereas others do not.

I look upon APUG, first and foremost, as a community of folk who share a fundamental interest in and a desire to preserve film photography. That's a fairly wide umbrella under which many diverse interests can gather - but it is the core principle.

As to the organization of this site - obviously, at the end of the day, that is Sean's decision - and only his. That is indisputable.

To Sean I would say simply this. The initiation of the other thread was not intended to be a provocation - but simply a means of getting away from the "clutter" of this thread to advance an idea. I had really hoped by posting it that one would see that my intent was not to challenge the goal - but to simply propose an alternative process to achieving it.

But enough said on this. I enjoy this site and look forward to continuing to participate.

I can only hope you will all understand that I when I post on subjects such as this - it is only with the greatest intentions of support for this site and its true purpose.

Well said, George. Glad to hear it. Made any good photographs lately? The cornfields should be near full height in Copake by now. I know you're interested in such things as subject matter... All the best. Shawn

George wrote:

"I look upon APUG, first and foremost, as a community of folk who share a fundamental interest in and a desire to preserve film photography. That's a fairly wide umbrella under which many diverse interests can gather - but it is the core principal."

RIGHT ON!

Bruce (Camclicker) said:

George wrote:

"I look upon APUG, first and foremost, as a community of folk who share a fundamental interest in and a desire to preserve film photography. That's a fairly wide umbrella under which many diverse interests can gather - but it is the core principal."

RIGHT ON!

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Yeah, except I should have written "principle"! (damn!)