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MattKing

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I've done some time consuming pruning of argument and personalized disagreements.
This is a warning to everybody - responding to posts in a way that indicates disagreement is fine and welcome, but personalizing the responses and using language likely to offend will result in moderation.
As will argument for argument's sake.
 
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MattKing

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This reminds me of the famous story of Henri Cartier Bresson approaching William Eggleston at a party and saying “William, colour is bullshit.” :smile:
Of course, that wouldn't have been likely to offend Eggleston .....
 

mshchem

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Here in Germany for about two years now it has been impossible to get any Kodak colour (silver-halide, process RA-4) paper. All the labs which were using Kodak have switched to Fujifilm. No problems at all here to get Fujilm paper and chemistry. Just order it and you have it the next day. Well, Fujifilm is even producing both here locally (Europe: The paper is produced in their factory in Tilburg, Netherlands, and the chemistry is produced in the Fuji Hunt factory in Belgium).
Fujifilm has invested quite a lot in their RA-4 paper production during the last decades, with lots of improved new papers. The last one, their overall best premium paper, was just introduced in 2018, at Photokina. An amazing product.

We know that Kodak Alaris had sold the segments 'photo chemistry' and 'photo paper' to the Chinese company Sino Promise Holdings. And we know that Sino has only the capability of confectioning / converting paper. They don't have a factory for emulsion making and coating.
In the past Kodak Alaris used Carestream in Windsor, Colorado, as their partner for producing the Kodak color paper for them. Will that be continued now under Sino Promise Holdings?
We will have to wait and see.
But the longer this situation of non-availability is going on, the more difficult it will be for Sino Promise Holdings to get their former customers back if they can offer paper products again.

Best regards,
Henning
Hi Henning, thanks for your information. I've been using Fujifilm Crystal Archive pre-cut sheets for years. Fuji Hunt chemistry is readily available here in the USA, I get mine from Unique Photo as all our local shops have closed.
Kodak branded chemistry is out of stock.
Do you think Carestream will continue to produce the Kodak papers? I can't imagine no Kodak papers. I did Not know that Sino Promise didn't have coating lines.
 
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Hi Henning, thanks for your information. I've been using Fujifilm Crystal Archive pre-cut sheets for years. Fuji Hunt chemistry is readily available here in the USA, I get mine from Unique Photo as all our local shops have closed.
Kodak branded chemistry is out of stock.
Do you think Carestream will continue to produce the Kodak papers? I can't imagine no Kodak papers. I did Not know that Sino Promise didn't have coating lines.

You're welcome.
Honestly, no one knows, besides themselves. Currently it is impossible to get any reliable information. We have to wait and see.
Of course I hope that we will have both Fujifilm and Sino (Kodak branded, and hopefully produced by Carestream again) RA-4 color paper.

The situation would generally certainly be better for RA-4 if the support from the film photographer community would be better. We have increasing demand for colour negative film, but not for silver-halide colour photo paper.
If you e.g. look at the popular film youtube channels, RA-4 prints is a topic which is almost completely ignored. Unfortunately.
All the talk is about the imaging chain with the worst overall quality: Scanning with cheap(er) scanners or scanning options (reproduction with cheap(er) digital cameras, 'camera scanning').
The wonderful advantages and features of real silver-halide prints are almost completely ignored on these channels.
If those who have started using film lately would also discover the beauty of real photo prints, that would be a significant push in demand, and really helpful. But promotion is needed, and that is unfortunately not done by those who could easily do it.

Best regards,
Henning
 

sasah zib

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from Sino Promise sites:
"Since 1st Dec., 2016, Sino Promise High-Tech Materials(Wuxi)Co. Ltd., a subsidiary of Sino Promise Group Ltd., officially took over the production business of Kodak Alaris in Wuxi City, China. It mainly manufactureschemicals for Medical X-ray film, Industrial film, Black &White and Color film, Color andBlack &White photographic paper andthe chemical kits for Digital printing,under our self-ownedbrand name "Sino"." http://www.sinopromise.com.cn/en/bizNuoxiang.php
--&&&
"Sinopromise High-tech materials(Xiamen) CO.,LTD, a subsidiary of the Group , started to produce Kodak Alarisproducts in Xiamen plant on 1st Dec. 2015, Mainly engaged in the Kodak photographic paper, thermal paper and other advanced materials production and processing, most of the products are exported to the Asia-pacific region."
http://www.sinopromise.com.cn/en/bizHighTech.php

off: http://www.sinopromise.com.cn/en/business.php
 

brbo

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I can't imagine no Kodak papers.

I've tried Fuji Maxima that some suggested as a substitution for Kodak Endura Premier and I'm quite happy. I'll use that if Endura is still not available when I run out of it. I feared that contrast will be too high but it's really very close to Endura.
 

zischga

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My point of view as a younger photographer (<30) who is also doing darkroom prints (color & b/w):
It is nice that these companies still exist and produce new enlargers, but due to the good availability and low price of used enlargers, most young people simply won't buy a new one.
I got a full Durst M605 set with two lenses (80mm Rodagon, 50mm Nikkor) for 150€. The price difference used vs. new is just too high for me and quality wise,
the components I have are more than adequate for me.
If demand picks up, there will be a reason to buy new darkroom equipment.
e.g. Leica M bodies, soon it will not be worth it to buy an M6, when it reaches the same price as a brand new MP. Could be similar with darkroom equipment.

I think color printing will be more relevant in a few years. I started film photography about 8 years ago and tried color printing for the first time last year.
I'm glad Adox has their own chemistry kit and sells sheet paper, I do not print nearly enough to justify buying a paper roll + a huge amount of pro RA-4 chemistry.

I would also like to mention, yes it is true that most youtube film photographers ignore color printing, but there are some good videos from Willem Verbeeck,
who is one of the most "famous" youtubers.
A few years ago people didn't really self develop negatives either "because it is too complicated",
just a matter of time until people realize that RA-4 printing is not that hard.
 

cmacd123

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poking around that web site, It seems that Sinopromise has bought most of what was left of Kodak China. http://www.sinopromise.com.cn/en/bizSino2.php

And they are apparently capable of making their own colour paper. Remains to be seen how much of the Kodak Portfolio that they plan to bring into their own house.
 
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MattKing

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Sino Promise were already the largest volume distributor of Kodak Alaris photographic product in the world before they completed the purchase. They sold mostly in the markets like Aisa which don't get as much attention here on Photrio.
I think we here on Photrio don't understand and appreciate how much happens in the photographic world outside of North America and Europe.
 

Helge

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You're welcome.
Honestly, no one knows, besides themselves. Currently it is impossible to get any reliable information. We have to wait and see.
Of course I hope that we will have both Fujifilm and Sino (Kodak branded, and hopefully produced by Carestream again) RA-4 color paper.

The situation would generally certainly be better for RA-4 if the support from the film photographer community would be better. We have increasing demand for colour negative film, but not for silver-halide colour photo paper.
If you e.g. look at the popular film youtube channels, RA-4 prints is a topic which is almost completely ignored. Unfortunately.
All the talk is about the imaging chain with the worst overall quality: Scanning with cheap(er) scanners or scanning options (reproduction with cheap(er) digital cameras, 'camera scanning').
The wonderful advantages and features of real silver-halide prints are almost completely ignored on these channels.
If those who have started using film lately would also discover the beauty of real photo prints, that would be a significant push in demand, and really helpful. But promotion is needed, and that is unfortunately not done by those who could easily do it.

Best regards,
Henning
Henning, I’m not sure you realize just how much good your postings here is doing.
Look at the view counts of the treads you posted in.
There is a lot of lurkers and infrequent posters on these pages. People who read a lot more than they ever participate.
And these are gals and guys who go spread your notions, words and data all over the world. And refer back to here.

I’ve lost count of the times I have heard and read someone saying something, where I immediately thought “that was a direct quote or a paraphrase of something Henning wrote on Photrio/APUG”.
I might not be correct every time, but I can’t be wrong all the time either.

I hope I don’t come off as smarmy or a suckup (what would I have to gain anyway?), I just feel that sometimes people forget to appreciate these kinds of posters on forums, until they’re gone.

I know from my own life how complicated compliments can be to give and not least receive. But they often mean something positive to the receiver in the end, when all is said and done.
 
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MultiFormat Shooter

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Alaris a clowncar organization....

That almost made my snarf on my keyboard.

4fd6b288e420f400d8633d40a4b9ad98.gif
 

markjwyatt

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...I just feel that sometimes people forget to appreciate these kinds of posters on forums, until they’re gone...

Like Ron Mowrey... He also always had authoritiative commentary.
 

Arcadia4

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Theres an explanation in the article below about what the sino promise manufacturing capabilities are;
- paper slitting and finishing in Xiamen since buying the business from Alaris in 2015 but they import the bulk paper rolls from Carestream, Windsor US, formerly Kodak healthcare. Alaris had by then already closed the only coating plant they actually owned in Harrow UK to sell it for housing. Sino promise have an own brand paper but no evidence they coat it.
- The Wuxi facility manufactures the colour process chemicals acquired from Alaris in 2016
https://www.insideimaging.com.au/2021/agx-photo-paper-shortages-in-4q/

Sadly there doesn't seem a lot left of kodaks $1bn investment in Kodak China in 1998
https://rbj.net/1998/03/23/kodak-plans-to-invest1-billion-in-china/
Kodak will own 80 percent of the Kodak (China) Co. Ltd. joint venture and 70 percent of Kodak (Wuxi) Co. Ltd.
‘The two Chinese companies owning shares in Kodak (China) Co. Ltd. are: Shantou Era Photo Materials, a color film and paper-sensitizing plant in Guangdong province; and Xiamen Fuda Photographic Materials, a color film and paper-sensitizing plant in Fujian province.
Wuxi Aermei Film and Chemical Corp., a black-and-white film manufacturing plant producing medical and industrial X-ray films in Jiangsu province, owns 30 percent of Kodak (Wuxi) Co. Ltd’
 
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MattKing

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Me too! I'm still waiting for the clowns to replace defective Xtol, which was promised to arrive back in February. (of 2021, I assume) :laugh:
Make the request again - to Sino Promise.
That is where my replacement X-Tol came from.
info@sinopromise.com
 

warden

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Make the request again - to Sino Promise.
That is where my replacement X-Tol came from.
info@sinopromise.com
That's who I've been dealing with, Matt. My last contact from kodakpaperchem@pro.sinopromise.com was on 5/10/21, which said, "Your replacement product has been ordered. I can't give you a ship date at this time."

That was the entirety of the message, if you can believe that. No greeting, no signature, no name of a human being. nothing. Just those two sentences. I first contacted them about the problem batch in December 2020.

I'm done with them.
 
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  • jtk
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My point of view as a younger photographer (<30) who is also doing darkroom prints (color & b/w):
It is nice that these companies still exist and produce new enlargers, but due to the good availability and low price of used enlargers, most young people simply won't buy a new one.

That depends significantly on the regional / national market you are in. For example here in my home market the time for extremely cheap darkroom gear in excellent condition is over for quite some time now.
Prices for gear in very good or excellent condition have increased significantly. Mainly only the low quality and "in bad condition" stuff can be bought still quite cheap.

I think color printing will be more relevant in a few years. I started film photography about 8 years ago and tried color printing for the first time last year.
I'm glad Adox has their own chemistry kit and sells sheet paper, I do not print nearly enough to justify buying a paper roll + a huge amount of pro RA-4 chemistry.

I agree. Also because of my market analysis. There is growth potential in that market.

I would also like to mention, yes it is true that most youtube film photographers ignore color printing, but there are some good videos from Willem Verbeeck,
who is one of the most "famous" youtubers.

Thanks for mentioning that, as it is exactly proving my point: I saw that initial video immediately when he published it at that time. And he said that there are no rational reasons, no technical advantages to do optical colour printing in your own darkroom. And that it is just for fun.
Of course it is or can be fun. But of course there are also rational and technical reasons / advantages of optical printing. Like e.g. superior detail rendition / resolution (if the right lenses are used) compared to scanning (with even a measurable advantage to drum scanners).
Well, I have done lots of scientific tests evaluating these different imaging chains. None of the film youtubers has done that.

Don't get me wrong: Willem Verbeek and lots of his colleagues have done often a very good job in getting new users - especially young ones - into film. And I really appreciate that. That has always been my motivation / target when some years ago - during the time when film demand was on its lowest point - here on photrio and in the industry / other groups when I explained both the need and the big chance for / by a 'grass roots movement' for film as one fundament for a sustainable film revival. And the development of the last years has proven me right to 100%.

But with the huge number of new film users it is important to realize that now the next step is necessary: Keeping them in using film in the long term. And that needs education, so that they remain satiesfied with their hobby. That they can 'grow', also in quality and personal excitement.
And that is also the current challenge for youtubers, bloggers etc.. And they still often "sell film photography below its real value" to their audience (a phenomenon we have here on photrio and other groups as well, by the way). Film is unfortunately often described in lower quality than it really is (which is also caused by the very dominant Lomography marketing we've had for many years).
The youtubers have to improve their knowledge and education as their audience is getting better over time and also wants more and deeper knowledge.

A few years ago people didn't really self develop negatives either "because it is too complicated",
just a matter of time until people realize that RA-4 printing is not that hard.

Yes, there is a good chance for that (see above). But it definitely needs further improvements in knowledge, education and marketing efforts.

Best regards,
Henning
 
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Theres an explanation in the article below about what the sino promise manufacturing capabilities are;
- paper slitting and finishing in Xiamen since buying the business from Alaris in 2015 but they import the bulk paper rolls from Carestream, Windsor US, formerly Kodak healthcare. Alaris had by then already closed the only coating plant they actually owned in Harrow UK to sell it for housing. Sino promise have an own brand paper but no evidence they coat it.
- The Wuxi facility manufactures the colour process chemicals acquired from Alaris in 2016
https://www.insideimaging.com.au/2021/agx-photo-paper-shortages-in-4q/

That is correct. There have been pictures of their photo paper confectioning (slitting and packaging) plant on their website in the past. But it looks like they have disappeared.

Best regards,
Henning
 
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Henning, I’m not sure you realize just how much good your postings here is doing.
Look at the view counts of the treads you posted in.
There is a lot of lurkers and infrequent posters on these pages. People who read a lot more than they ever participate.
And these are gals and guys who go spread your notions, words and data all over the world. And refer back to here.

I’ve lost count of the times I have heard and read someone saying something, where I immediately thought “that was a direct quote or a paraphrase of something Henning wrote on Photrio/APUG”.
I might not be correct every time, but I can’t be wrong all the time either.

I hope I don’t come off as smarmy or a suckup (what would I have to gain anyway?), I just feel that sometimes people forget to appreciate these kinds of posters on forums, until they’re gone.

I know from my own life how complicated compliments can be to give and not least receive. But they often mean something positive to the receiver in the end, when all is said and done.

Hello Helge,

thank you very much for your kind and motivating words. I really appreciate that.
Also many thanks to markjwyatt and Old Gregg.
I promise to continue to do my very best to give you all here the most precise and helpful information as possible. But I also hope you understand that being active here is very time consuming and can be only done from time to time. My main focus has been - and will be - all my work on several levels for the sustainable film revival. And that is not a "nine to five" job, not at all........

Best regards,
Henning
 

Tom Kershaw

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But of course there are also rational and technical reasons / advantages of optical printing. Like e.g. superior detail rendition / resolution (if the right lenses are used) compared to scanning (with even a measurable advantage to drum scanners).
Well, I have done lots of scientific tests evaluating these different imaging chains. None of the film youtubers has done that.

Henning, this is correct from my experience as well, but I'm really not sure how to improve the "marketplace of knowledge" on YouTube. I also absolutely agree about the dangers of underselling film as a technology.
 

Helge

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But with the huge number of new film users it is important to realize that now the next step is necessary: Keeping them in using film in the long term. And that needs education, so that they remain satiesfied with their hobby. That they can 'grow', also in quality and personal excitement.
And that is also the current challenge for youtubers, bloggers etc.. And they still often "sell film photography below its real value" to their audience (a phenomenon we have here on photrio and other groups as well, by the way). Film is unfortunately often described in lower quality than it really is (which is also caused by the very dominant Lomography marketing we've had for many years).
The youtubers have to improve their knowledge and education as their audience is getting better over time and also wants more and deeper knowledge.

Yes, there is a good chance for that (see above). But it definitely needs further improvements in knowledge, education and marketing efforts.
505322724-hammer.gif
 

Helge

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With all due respect, Henning, but if one needs a lab and scientific equipment to detect this "superiority", it can be argued that from commercial point of view it doesn't exist. I am pretty sure Willem has done prints at 11x14" and up using both methods and didn't notice any superior detail rendition / resolution. There's a difference between what can be seen in a lab vs what people can actually notice and pay money for. Of course, there will always be mural-sized prints and other long tail use cases, but again they have no impact on the market size for consumer/home enlargers.

All one needs is a projector and a slide from a good camera and lens combo to easily see reproducible and hard proof of the massive resolution film is capable of.

Resolution is not masturbation or a party trick. It is a very important aspect of the art of photography, with great emotional impact.
One of the main requirements when three strip Technicolor was introduced in the thirties, was that the audience should easily be able to distinguish the white of the eyes of an actor deep in the set.
With a full body shot, with the talent some meters away further still, the direction of the gaze should still clearly be destinguishable.
That is a test many iPhone shots have trouble living up to even in daylight.
Faces and living things is one thing, but high resolution textures and colour detail, speaks to our visual system in so many interwoven ways no one is probably ever going to get to the bottom of it.
One thing that is certain is, that contrast edges, or more broadly high frequency information (of the right kind, very importantly. MTF and psycho optics, is not just one thing, or a dead science) is one of the first things the processing of the retina and the early stages of visual cortex picks up on. It is an extremely visceral and non conscious process that happens all the time our eyes are open.

Great printing is not that hard. What one needs is just good equipment. I'm flabbergasted by how many times I see people with a Leica or Hasselblad, then to learn that they use a wonky, third-rate enlarger with an absolute budget, kit triplet lens. Obviously because they can't show that off.
You can't expect good results with such equipment.
One woefully under-prioritized piece of equipment is the grain enlarger.
No, the bog standard Patterson is not good "enough". The grain enlarger is your way of getting a small print to look extremely sharp and high resolution, and your way of getting a larger one to really shine.
 
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Helge

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Strongly agree here, but probably for different reasons. The photographic community in general spends way too much energy on technological merits of available mediums, and not talking enough about what makes the hobby actually enjoyable. In my opinion, film photographers should stay away from promoting "technological superiority" of film and focus on the real reasons they use it. We all know what they are, and resolution is not on the list.

I want to set up a darkroom badly, but not because I want superior output, but because I expect to have a lot of fun spending time there. No need to shy away from "fun". It's the best gender and age agnostic marketing.
Poppycock! We should do exactly that. Tell people when they pass-on wrong factoids and notions, and then go on to spread well researched and founded knowledge and facts.
Not in an overbearing, stiff, Asperger like fashion. But by having a semi prepared list of things to say. Being succinct, positive and friendly about it.

Most people when they imagine getting lectured from a "fanatic" film guy, they probably think vaguely of the same guy I think.
We all met him in photoshops, at flea markets, photo meets etc: An oldish (which is relative, I meet these types in his early twenties too) born into naive religious positivism, often ex pro. Like a press man, a pro studio hog, or a dyed in the wool hobbyist... They usually wear "sensible" shoes, beige windbreaker and something red to "spruce it up".
They have very ossified opinions on what is right and just, and what their worth in the equation is. And they are often quite passive aggressive about it.
What's damning is that while their photography is superficially technically proficient WRT the very basics, it is as dull as dishwater.
One kitschy visual platitude after another. With little sense of composition or even the slightest idea about catching the interest of the viewer.
We should aim to be the antithesis to that.

Whenever I hear someone proclaiming "135 film can at the very most resolve the equivalent of 24 MP, most often a lot less", I know exactly what google hits, from the first two or three pages they read, and probably also when they last looked it up.
Epson put some magic sauce in their scanners, that convinces people who look at the results that "this probably can't get much better".
Would be a wonderful general ingredient to source,

Trouble with virtue signalling and humble bragging statements like "it's all about the process", "it's a Craft", "It's something tangible in a digital world", "it allows me to use wonderful old cameras" or "It's keeping a tradition alive", is that all of these schmaltzy platitudes are very nice, probably with more than a grain of truth in them. But, they are ultimately lies and at best secondary "reasons" for the already initiated.
The process and the craft and the tangibility, comes to mean very little over time, and if the same result could be obtained from manipulating digital.
Especially when push comes to shove, and a personal or a global crisis hits and you are forced to cut on extraneous expenditure and have less mental headroom for "soft notions" and fluffy invented social constructions like the above.
Good habits die easily.
In the end it is always about the end-result. A guy pretending to shoot film with an unloaded camera is a nutter.

Film is to put it simply and bluntly, just plain superior as an image recording medium on most counts, and in a fundamental way.
Where it could be said to be lacking is in perception (sociological halo effect) and in knowledge of the last mile problem. IE getting the film to actually display its data in an optimal way.
Again this is not hard, but we are working against some mightily stubborn windmills.
 
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Helge

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Hello Helge,

thank you very much for your kind and motivating words. I really appreciate that.
Also many thanks to markjwyatt and Old Gregg.
I promise to continue to do my very best to give you all here the most precise and helpful information as possible. But I also hope you understand that being active here is very time consuming and can be only done from time to time. My main focus has been - and will be - all my work on several levels for the sustainable film revival. And that is not a "nine to five" job, not at all........

Best regards,
Henning
You're quite welcome.
Wouldn't have it any other way, Henning.
Distractions is the bane of our time. Even good and fruitful things can turn into distractions without you noticing. Seems you have a good grasp and control of that.
It's very easy to get lost on the way with subgoals, while mistaking a clear view for a short distance.
 

faberryman

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Film is to but it simply and bluntly, just plain superior as an image recording medium on most counts, and in a fundamental way.

Perhaps. The problem is most people who shoot film then scan it, largely eliminating any of its superiority.
 
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