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Helge

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Strongly disagree. These are true statements free of bullshitting. People shoot film because it's fun. I do not know anyone, myself included, who does it to get more resolution. In fact, I have never hit the resolution limit on any medium and I am firmly in the "prosumer" category. If you want to alienate someone, the sure way to do it is start bragging about "technical superiority in the lab" of anything. Your prepared list of things to day won't help you simply because nobody can see what you're talking about. Everyone's got their 11x14" digital wedding prints they never look at, but when they do, the prints look exactly like their parents



No.
Yes.
We could take a deep dive into Detective Quantum Efficiency and whether it is a good measure of IQ. Into psycho optics. Into how exactly a modern CMOS sensor works and how the suite of processing and routines that accompanies it works, and how film works and what manufacturers of either is and isn't telling us and why. Etc.
But I'd rather not.

It's fun to handle old cameras and to be seen with them and the interactions and chats they get you into with other people. I shoot a F80 regularly, a camera that could be and is easily mistaken for a digital though.
I still enjoy the hell out of those photos. Again, would you shoot a camera and go through the motions of mock development and printing. just to "enjoy the process"?
Of course there are other things to like about film than resolution, film is superior in other respects to.
All of those cliches I mentioned are at best secondary reasons. And most of them will get habitual and even old hat in due time. As they did and where to many people back when film was king.
 
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faberryman

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Macro camera scanning is the obvious answer to that.
You mean making a digital image of film with a digital camera? I am not sure how a digital image of film taken with a digital camera is technically superior to a digital image taken with a digital camera. Isn't the digital sensor the limiting factor in both instances?
 

Helge

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You mean making a digital image of film with a digital camera?
Exactly as a scanner would.
The big, big difference is that it's not 1:1 macro with a full frame.
And before Adrian comes storming in, 1:1 can look OK for certain applications. But we are talking about doing full justice to a good frame.
Going below 1:1 gradually takes grain aliasing and bayer filter problems out of the chain. At the same time as just resolving most of the detail.
Grain is not a primitive like a pixel or a polygon. It's more akin to a carrier matrix or a substrate which partially covers the image, while at the same time conforming to it.
Quite unique in signal theory. The closest equivalent is probably magnetic grain on tape.
 
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With all due respect, Henning, but if one needs a lab and scientific equipment to detect this "superiority", it can be argued that from commercial point of view it doesn't exist.

With all respect, Gregg, but I have not written that. You've understood me wrong.
The differences - and in several cases / parameters the technical advantages of film - can be clearly seen by the average film user / film enthusiast.
For example the better detail rendition of an optical print made with a Rodagon / APO-Rodagon enlarging lens (or the equivalent Schneider-Kreuznach lenses) on silver-halide paper compared to a scan, made with the very popular flatbed or cheaper consumer scanners and then printed with a home inkjet printer.
Or the big and clearly visible advantage in detail rendition and three-dimensional look of slide projection compared to digital projection: This very "true-to-life" three-dimensional look of a transparency on the lighttable under an excellent loupe and in projection with excellent projection lenses cannot be got / obtained by monitors and digital projection (they look flat with no depth in comparison).
In detail rendition / resolution there is also a clear advantage, as even the most expensive digital projectors have only a 4k (8MP) output. That is only a small fraction of what film can deliver in projection: I have tested it. The results are of course -.as always - depending on the object / detail contrast. But even at a quite low object contrast of only two stops (1:4) you get 40-50 MP on the screen.
And even higher values with higher contrast details. Or with high-resolution BW reversal film, like ADOX CMS 20 II. With that you are approaching 200 MP on the screen with 35mm film.
In projection I have clear technical advantages with film:
Better look (3-D), colour brillance and detail rendition. And all that at a much lower price, as the best slide projectors cost much, much less than the best digital projectors.
Therefore also a much better price-performance ratio.

And why should I not inform my workshops students about these advantages? Or why should a blogger or youtuber not talk about it?
The workshop student, reader of the blog or youtube channel viewer wants information. And when he has got the information he can decide by himself whether the technical differences or advantages may be important for him and his photography or not.
Any kind of self-censorship or withholding / restraining / holding off of information is counterproductive. Give your audience the information in the best and most informative / detailed way.
And trust in their ability to decide by themselves which factors and parameters are important to them.
Any kind of paternalism would not be helpful.

For you certain advantages of film may be not important at all. That is absolutely o.k, as you know best what you want and need.
But people are very different in their wishes and needs:
And for other photographers especially those advantages of film you don't care for are very important, for them.
We should be tolerant concerning all these different needs.

We should give information to (new) film photographers as informative / comprehensive / detailed as possible. Including technological strengths and advantages of film.
In a factual, objective way. Self-confident, but definitely not in an evengalizing / preaching or arrogant way.

Best regards,
Henning
 

Helge

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What does all this have to do with the original topic?

Seems like most threads end up with grumpy tirades.
Did you read the original post and the link?
Where is the grump and where is the tirade?
Stop building straw men to your liking; stop pigeonholing people into your narrow minded cliches, to be a able to “deal with them”.
 

mshchem

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Did you read the original post and the link?
Where is the grump and where is the tirade?
Stop building straw men to your liking; stop pigeonholing people into your narrow minded cliches, to be a able to “deal with them”.
All righty then.
 
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