Tetenal UK Dealer Day report - November 2021

[MattKing]

An interesting piece by Hamish Gill from his 35mmc blog:
https://www.35mmc.com/10/11/2021/interesting-industry-insights-from-the-tetenal-uk-dealer-day/

 

[destroya]

I just read it. very interesting, especially the fuji info. kinda explains the shortages of films like velvia 50. I would really like it if they gave an update on whether they are going to turn on the "mothballed facility" again

john

 

[Kodachromeguy]

https://www.35mmc.com/10/11/2021/interesting-industry-insights-from-the-tetenal-uk-dealer-day/

An industry update from the 35MMC web page.

 

[Arcadia4]

Good insight into current state of market particularly for kodak and fuji and positive overall. The fuji news at least explains rumours about film production being idled and a potential ‘restart’ of production and maybe not all is lost for pro400h.

 

[MattKing]

Duplicate threads combined.
Hope Kodachromeguy doesn't mind

 

[ilikecameras1010]

This is great news all around and it's reassuring to hear anything from Fuji about film. I own a lab & camera store and have been getting pretty nervous about future supply of all their products, as I haven't been able to buy Superia or C200 through the usual channels for close to 6 months-- and the film inside all recently sold QuickSnap and QuickSnap waterproof single-use cameras is made by Kodak!

Kodak film has been hard to get, but at least you can tell they are trying! Can't blame them for the price increase, and their customer service is not bad. I wrote an email to them inquiring about the change of film base from standard acetate to ESTAR in ColorPlus, Portra 800, and single-use camera films and got a personal response from Tim Ryugo himself.

But go figure-- Fuji paper and chemicals are easy to get at any distributor while Kodak (now Sino Promise) has not shipped paper or chemicals since the summer. Everyone I know running a minilab setup has had to change over to Fuji or Champion chemicals.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

A positive to see Fujifilm represented, who as a company seem to be overly criticised despite manufacturing some excellent quality and competitively priced product lines.

 

[Agulliver]

Some people, despite being told multiple times by multiple people, don't understand or choose not to believe that FujiFilm being Japanese operate a very different communications policy to Kodak, Ilford, Tetenal, Lomography and all the others. FujiFilm will never be as transparent or open about the details of their manufacturing and business. That's just the way it is. But they also won't tell an outright lie. They're not exiting the business. Or at least don't plan to any time soon.

What we get from Kodak is some level of detail that we won't get from Fuji. And we need to accept that. The Fuji rep probably said everything he was permitted to say. It's just a different culture.

Over all it's positive news. Things are nudging in the right direction. Hopefully in two years time the supply of film, especially colour film, will be more stable and we'll have lost no more products. Perhaps be looking forward to gaining one or two.


Now...where is my Kodachrome in 220 for 50c a reel? I demand it.

 

[brbo]

Kodak still with production bottleneck (and they said last few price increases were there to help them address that) and Fuji now saying they haven't produced film for almost two years.

If that's good news I really don't need to hear the bad news...

 

[Agulliver]

Kodak still with production bottleneck (and they said last few price increases were there to help them address that) and Fuji now saying they haven't produced film for almost two years.

If that's good news I really don't need to hear the bad news...

The sense of entitlement is quite staggering.

You do realise the film industry has been through a 90+% slump followed by a significant resurgence, followed by a global plague.

Kodak ramping up production and clearing the bottleneck which is tens of millions of films, cannot be achieved in a few weeks or even months.

Fuji had to stop a lot of it's activities during the pandemic, which I remind you is in no way over yet.

It is going to take a couple of years at least to sort these issues out. It was *always* going to take that time.

Bad news would be Kodak and Fuji throwing in the towel and saying they can't meet demand or recoup costs so they're giving up. Bad news would be Ilford or Foma announcing bankruptcy. Bad news would be Adox giving up....Tetenal disappearing....the fact that all these companies persevere to make their products for us is not a given.

 

[grat]

Yeah, but this is Internet 2.0. It's no longer "sex sells"-- that's plentiful and cheap. Now it's all about hate and superiority complexes.

 

[Henning Serger]

I just read it. very interesting, especially the fuji info. kinda explains the shortages of films like velvia 50. I would really like it if they gave an update on whether they are going to turn on the "mothballed facility" again

john

John,
it is very very likely that the expression "mothballed" is the wrong term here, and probably the result of an unprecise translation from Japanese to English.
It is much more likely that Fujifilm had to do exactly the same at some time point in the pandemic as all the other film manufacturers: Interrupt production for several months. And after that then continuing it.
Kodak had to do it. Ilford had to do it. ADOX had to do it (but for a much shorter time). Film Ferrania had to do it. And afaik Foma, too.

It is extremely unlikely that Fujifilm had "mothballed" whole film production for a longer time (or until now). Because if that would have been the case, we would have seen shortages or unavailability of Instax film. But that did not happen! Fujifilm is selling dozens of millions Instax film packs p.a.. If their film factory would have been "mothballed", it would have been impossible to continuously serve the market with Instax film.
You cannot simply sell so much film just from existing stock. You have to produce it to sell such a huge amount.
And Fujifilm just some weeks ago introduced another new film product: An instax printer for instax Wide film. You would not do that with a "mothballed" or longer closed film factory.

Japan had a slow start in vaccination against Covid19. But meanwhile they have accelerated in an impressive way and surpassed lots of other industrialized countries by a significant margin (including the US and Germany). And they are still running at full speed. So maybe Fujifilm was affected by the slow start, but the situation is much much better now and further improving quickly in Japan.
By the way: I recently bought fresh Fujifilm again (Superia X-Tra and Instax Wide) via Fotoimpex. And the guarantee dates were far in future: late 2023 (Instax) and 2024 (Superia). So fresh / recent production.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[brbo]

The sense of entitlement is quite staggering.

I feel like I need to apologise to you because I find Fuji not producing film for a while now not a very good news. Bright side being they are obviously running Instax line 24/7.

Now, if you excuse me, I need to jump on the "film is SOOO expensive, I'm quitting film forever" bandwagon so I won't stand out anymore and aggravate the BBS (thats Internet 0.1 for those of you who speak Internet 2.0) folks...

 

[Lachlan Young]

Another thought I had was that Kodak actually wasn't at the meeting. I understand the value of a distributor like Alaris, but I am mildly unhappy with them being a corp. comms middleman for EK. I am more interested learning about manufacturing supply chain issues or factory capacity issues from a company that actually does manufacturing.

As confusing as it is, it seems that despite the nominally different corporate hierarchies, the bit of Alaris that sells the film and the bit of Kodak that makes the film operate extremely closely together. Andy Church's background is in Kodak product manufacture, so it's not like there's a lack of knowledge/ experience there - but that also has to be weighed against what he feels he can/ is allowed to disclose.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Andy Church's background is in Kodak product manufacture, so it's not like there's a lack of knowledge/ experience there - but that also has to be weighed against what he feels he can/ is allowed to disclose.

As we move away from the covid-19 situation, hopefully manufacturers and distributors will be able to get a better outlook on potential future products, formats, and availability etc. I imagine this is difficult to judge at the moment.

 

[MattKing]

Another thought I had was that Kodak actually wasn't at the meeting. I understand the value of a distributor like Alaris, but I am mildly unhappy with them being a corp. comms middleman for EK. I am more interested learning about manufacturing supply chain issues or factory capacity issues from a company that actually does manufacturing.

That is like saying that you would be unhappy with Apple being at the meeting but Foxconn not showing up.
Or being unhappy with GM, Ford and Chrysler being at the meeting, but Magna International Inc. (Canada's largest auto parts manufacturer) not showing up.
Kodak Alaris has all the necessary information, and work hand in hand with Eastman Kodak on issues affecting distributor, retailer and end user availability, because Kodak Alaris are the only ones with any involvement in the post manufacturer issues. Kodak Alaris is Eastman Kodak's only customer for still film products, and Eastman Kodak has no resources on staff for public outreach about still films.
Eastman Kodak makes nothing (in still films) that isn't first ordered by Kodak Alaris.
With the exception of a small part of their motion picture business, Eastman Kodak has converted itself into an entity that only does B2B business.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...Kodak Alaris is Eastman Kodak's only customer for still film products...Eastman Kodak makes nothing (in still films) that isn't first ordered by Kodak Alaris...

Does this apply to all Eastman Kodak still film production? Or only to the part of that production that is branded "Kodak?"

 

[DMJ]

Interesting to see that enlargers were mentioned. "Intrepid’s enlarger was mentioned, as well as the ones Paterson sell. Again there was some consensus in the room for the need for more enlarger options in the marketplace."

There is the Adox, Beseler, DeVere and I think there are more.

 

[destroya]

John,
it is very very likely that the expression "mothballed" is the wrong term here, and probably the result of an unprecise translation from Japanese to English.
It is much more likely that Fujifilm had to do exactly the same at some time point in the pandemic as all the other film manufacturers: Interrupt production for several months. And after that then continuing it.
Kodak had to do it. Ilford had to do it. ADOX had to do it (but for a much shorter time). Film Ferrania had to do it. And afaik Foma, too.

It is extremely unlikely that Fujifilm had "mothballed" whole film production for a longer time (or until now). Because if that would have been the case, we would have seen shortages or unavailability of Instax film. But that did not happen! Fujifilm is selling dozens of millions Instax film packs p.a.. If their film factory would have been "mothballed", it would have been impossible to continuously serve the market with Instax film.
You cannot simply sell so much film just from existing stock. You have to produce it to sell such a huge amount.
And Fujifilm just some weeks ago introduced another new film product: An instax printer for instax Wide film. You would not do that with a "mothballed" or longer closed film factory.

Japan had a slow start in vaccination against Covid19. But meanwhile they have accelerated in an impressive way and surpassed lots of other industrialized countries by a significant margin (including the US and Germany). And they are still running at full speed. So maybe Fujifilm was affected by the slow start, but the situation is much much better now and further improving quickly in Japan.
By the way: I recently bought fresh Fujifilm again (Superia X-Tra and Instax Wide) via Fotoimpex. And the guarantee dates were far in future: late 2023 (Instax) and 2024 (Superia). So fresh / recent production.

Best regards,
Henning

I hope you are right, as you have been many many time before!

john

 

[MattKing]

Does this apply to all Eastman Kodak still film production? Or only to the part of that production that is branded "Kodak?"

I do not know whether the Lomography film that appears to come from Eastman Kodak comes through Kodak Alaris, but it wouldn't surprise me.
I think everything else coming from Eastman Kodak is branded Kodak - even the stuff that is in the Fuji disposable cameras.
And Kodak Alaris is the entity that controls that flow.

 

[MattKing]

You have access to the Internet to educate yourself on why these are comically bad analogies. I have nothing to add. Kodak wasn't at the meeting. It doesn't mean she wasn't informed, but usually marketing/distribution folks are armed with nothing but talking points.

When it comes to still film Kodak is the international entity known as Kodak Alaris - plus Eastman Kodak, a one plant manufacturer in Rochester whose main business is not photographic, but rather commercial pre-press. They still maintain a small division that manufactures wonderful still and motion picture films, but almost all of its former employees either left the business or went to work for Kodak Alaris - often in the same locations that Eastman Kodak or its many international subsidiaries formerly operated.

 

[foc]

There is a very interesting read here, just scroll down to the Fuji Film section.

https://www.35mmc.com/10/11/2021/interesting-industry-insights-from-the-tetenal-uk-dealer-day/

If you have time to read the whole article, there are some insights into the price of Film vs Vinyl and inflation from Kodak Alaris.

 

[abruzzi]

definitely some interesting details in the article. I do like the point that film prices, on average, are trackng inflation. I'm guessing that the fact the B&W tracked higher than inflation and C41 tracked much lower is probably about demand. As someone who shoots 98% B&W and 2% E6 (and a statistically insignificant amount of C41) I always think of B&W as being the heart of film photography, but I have to keep telling myself that I'm an outlier.

 

[MattKing]

Two threads on the same subject combined.

 

[Kino]

Sorry to be so cynical, but I remain skeptical.

I hope what they say is true, but building a power point and weaving soothing stories is no substitute for actual action.

My cynicism comes from decades of enduring "happy talk" presentations of projects from upper management that 99.9% fall flat on their face and are quickly swept under the rug.

Seeing as how we have little recourse, the very best option in my opinion is to remain guardedly optimistic.

I'll try...