Tetenal UK Dealer Day report - November 2021

dscottjorgenson · Nov 13, 2021

Henning Serger said:
John,
it is very very likely that the expression "mothballed" is the wrong term here, and probably the result of an unprecise translation from Japanese to English.
It is much more likely that Fujifilm had to do exactly the same at some time point in the pandemic as all the other film manufacturers: Interrupt production for several months.
...
It is extremely unlikely that Fujifilm had "mothballed" whole film production for a longer time (or until now).

This makes sense based on the evidence I saw over the course of the pandemic. I kept watch on availability of 120 Velvia 50 and 100 at Japanese retailers (Bic and Yodobashi) all through 2020 and 2021, and ordered from Bic via a Japan shopping service 3 times in 2021. At no time were either of those large Japanese retailers out-of-stock of either of those films; and each time I ordered from Bic, I received suitably fresh stock, with expiration dates in 2022 and 2023, always about 12-18 months out from the time of my order. In other words, like normal. This, to me, indicates a running production line, for domestic consumption at least, with any complete shutdown lasting no longer than a few months consecutive. Did they stop distributing though, to North America at least? That I could certainly believe, based on US short expiration dates (eg orders from B&H in early 2021 with expiry just a couple months later in spring 2021) and then complete unavailability for much of the time after that.

My speculation, of course.

foc · Nov 13, 2021

MattKing said:
Two threads on the same subject combined.

Thank you Matt.

Bikerider · Nov 13, 2021

It is not only film but colour printing paper as well. Specifically Kodak Endura in Rolls. There does seem to be a supply of Fuji RA4 paper, but I prefer Kodak.I have my own paper roll dispenser and I'm coming to the end of a 12" x 88m Roll but my usual supplier has none of virtually any size. (AG Photographic) If they have none no one else will either. On the other hand some supplies of Kodak consumer colour films seem to be trickling through from Kodak but nothing at all from Fuji at the same level. When supplies of at least a decent range of RA4/C41products become available I will breath more easily. Until then, just like believing in politicians promises the situation is like tilting at windmills.

Henning Serger · Nov 13, 2021

destroya said:
I hope you are right, as you have been many many time before!

john

Thanks John, you are welcome.
I will try to get even more information by my Fujifilm and other industry contacts next week.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Nov 13, 2021

ilikecameras1010 said:
But go figure-- Fuji paper and chemicals are easy to get at any distributor while Kodak (now Sino Promise) has not shipped paper or chemicals since the summer. Everyone I know running a minilab setup has had to change over to Fuji or Champion chemicals.

Here in Germany for about two years now it has been impossible to get any Kodak colour (silver-halide, process RA-4) paper. All the labs which were using Kodak have switched to Fujifilm. No problems at all here to get Fujilm paper and chemistry. Just order it and you have it the next day. Well, Fujifilm is even producing both here locally (Europe: The paper is produced in their factory in Tilburg, Netherlands, and the chemistry is produced in the Fuji Hunt factory in Belgium).
Fujifilm has invested quite a lot in their RA-4 paper production during the last decades, with lots of improved new papers. The last one, their overall best premium paper, was just introduced in 2018, at Photokina. An amazing product.

We know that Kodak Alaris had sold the segments 'photo chemistry' and 'photo paper' to the Chinese company Sino Promise Holdings. And we know that Sino has only the capability of confectioning / converting paper. They don't have a factory for emulsion making and coating.
In the past Kodak Alaris used Carestream in Windsor, Colorado, as their partner for producing the Kodak color paper for them. Will that be continued now under Sino Promise Holdings?
We will have to wait and see.
But the longer this situation of non-availability is going on, the more difficult it will be for Sino Promise Holdings to get their former customers back if they can offer paper products again.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Nov 13, 2021

DMJ said:
Interesting to see that enlargers were mentioned. "Intrepid’s enlarger was mentioned, as well as the ones Paterson sell. Again there was some consensus in the room for the need for more enlarger options in the marketplace."

There is the Adox, Beseler, DeVere and I think there are more.

Yes,
and when I read this in the article I only could shake my head. I am often very shocked by the fact that some people on the distribution side (especially some of the young, new ones, and mostly those outside Continental Europe) and some of the film bloggers / youtubers / influencers have so little knowledge about the market and the offerings. Looks like some of them are even not able to use simple internet research for products.......duckandhide .
The fact about enlargers:
There has never ever been a problem at all to buy excellent new enlargers!!! Same for enlarging lenses. Even during the worst times for film some years ago alone in Germany there have been three (!) different enlarger manufacturers (and now there are even four):
- Kienzle Phototechnik: http://www.kienzle-phototechnik.de/
- Kaiser Fototechnik: https://www.kaiser-fototechnik.de/de/produkte/index.php?s=19
- Dunco: https://www.dunco.de/apparatebau/
And besides this three who have and are producing lots of excellent enlarger types meanwhile also Heiland electronic has started building unique and absolutely outstanding LF and ULF enlargers:
https://heilandelectronic.de
https://www.instagram.com/heilandelectronic/

Best regards,
Henning

DMJ · Nov 13, 2021

@Henning Serger Exactly my thoughts and I wonder if some people only navigate the internet through social networks (youtube, instagram, facebook) and live in a feedback loop where their believes are reinforced and amplified.

Henning Serger · Nov 13, 2021

DMJ said:
@Henning Serger Exactly my thoughts and I wonder if some people only navigate the internet through social networks (youtube, instagram, facebook) and live in a feedback loop where their believes are reinforced and amplified.

I completely agree.
And some of the young film influencers / youtubers and new little film / used camera / film developing shops are by far the worst in that regard.
Often I have the impression, that the less they know, so more they are talking.........and complaining about products they miss, but which are there and have always been there, without interruption. In excellent quality.

Best regards,
Henning

brbo · Nov 13, 2021

Henning Serger said:
The fact about enlargers:
There has never ever been a problem at all to buy excellent new enlargers!!! Same for enlarging lenses. Even during the worst times for film some years ago alone in Germany there have been three (!) different enlarger manufacturers (and now there are even four):
- Kienzle Phototechnik: http://www.kienzle-phototechnik.de/
- Kaiser Fototechnik: https://www.kaiser-fototechnik.de/de/produkte/index.php?s=19
- Dunco: https://www.dunco.de/apparatebau/

With all due respect, those guys are stuck in 20th century. The new film enthusiasts are not missing anything not knowing of their existence. Communication with those dinosaurs is a test in patience and prices you get from them are unfortunately eye-watering (you won't find any prices for their gear on their web pages - a telltale you basically can't afford it) and their presence on other brick&mortar or internet shops is very limited. It's very good that they are still in business, but they are not companies that will popularise darkroom work the way they operate today. Companies like Intrepid, or even Lomography, are much more likely to do that.

*****Edited by Moderator

DMJ · Nov 13, 2021

Here we go...

brbo · Nov 13, 2021

DMJ said:
Here we go...

A couple of years ago I finally decided to put together a very modest darkroom. If I had to buy even a single thing from the companies Henning listed, I'd still be scanning film. Your experience is obviously different. Feel free to write about it...

DMJ · Nov 13, 2021

I bought mine on Craigslist, also modest and for a very good price. But look for example at the Adox enlarger, it is around $200. There are also affordable Beselers.

/*** Response to deleted comment edited

MattKing · Nov 13, 2021

FWIW, I think it is possible to be both appreciative about the engagement and enthusiasm of some photographers, and be critical about the information and information sources the same photographers use and share.

Tom Kershaw · Nov 13, 2021

Henning Serger said:
I completely agree.
And some of the young film influencers / youtubers and new little film / used camera / film developing shops are by far the worst in that regard.
Often I have the impression, that the less they know, so more they are talking.........and complaining about products they miss, but which are there and have always been there, without interruption. In excellent quality.

I would like to add a note of support to you here Henning, I'm in complete agreement, some of the misinformation spread by these groups and new "film niche" business is staggering. I don't know whether they are doing it for cynical marketing reasons or are genuinely ignorant. As an example, I have two De Vere enlargers in current operation, but have been aware of Kaiser, Kienzle etc. for years and in the context of this website I'm fairly young; so it isn't that younger people are inevitably unaware of these manufacturers and product ranges.

Lachlan Young · Nov 13, 2021

Tom Kershaw said:
some of the misinformation spread by these groups and new "film niche" business is staggering. I don't know whether they are doing it for cynical marketing reasons or are genuinely ignorant. As an example, I have two De Vere enlargers in current operation, but have been aware of Kaiser, Kienzle etc. for years and in the context of this website I'm fairly young; so it isn't that younger people are inevitably unaware of these manufacturers and product ranges.

The worst offenders I've encountered for spreading bad information are particular sectors in the middle-aged & older categories - what I've found in my (our?) age-group and younger is a real desire for well communicated information derived from imaging science, not pseudo-technical/ zone-system BS from developer tasters who feel a need to demand a narrow aesthetic as the only allowable form of 'photography'. Unfortunately, in the absence of accessible (as good as Richard Henry etc's work was, it is not particularly easily accessible to a completely lay reader) methods/ methodologies for testing/ disproving nonsense (and algorithms that value 'conflict'), bad information is easily spread - though qualitatively speaking some of it is less bad than the stuff that used to be printed in the photographic press - who were supposed to pretend to a more authoritative 'truth'. Another De Vere user here - it's striking how many younger photographers gravitate strongly towards them over other machines.

foc · Nov 13, 2021

Misinformation is the same whether it comes from young or old.
I think a lot of it comes from laziness, not being willing to do some proper research, and just repeating the first answer they come across. ( there are no three sources of reliable info to cross reference).

Agulliver · Nov 13, 2021

While I do appreciate the importance of Instagram and other social media for young film photographers....it never ceases to amaze me how many younger appear to be unable to use.....Google...

Lachlan Young · Nov 13, 2021

Agulliver said:
While I do appreciate the importance of Instagram and other social media for young film photographers....it never ceases to amaze me how many younger appear to be unable to use.....Google...

There's a general & worrying inability across society to parse good/ bad information from the firehose of Google (or other search engines etc) results - quite apart from how the algorithms serve up assumptions about what the user wants to see. On the other hand, it has become much easier to access good information than when the major gatekeepers were the photographic press.

markjwyatt · Nov 13, 2021

Old Gregg said:
@Kino ... if Eastman Kodak and Fuji were pull out of color film completely, a "color ADOX" will be started by someone, ....

ADOX + ORWO?

Tom Kershaw · Nov 14, 2021

Lachlan Young said:
Another De Vere user here - it's striking how many younger photographers gravitate strongly towards them over other machines.

I suspect an aspect of this may be related to availability in the UK, although De Vere machines seem to be thinner on the ground today. I'm not sure how the population (and popularity) of makes is distributed here, e.g Durst, LPL, etc.

Henning Serger · Nov 14, 2021

brbo said:
With all due respect, those guys are stuck in 20th century. The new film enthusiasts are not missing anything not knowing of their existence. Communication with those dinosaurs is a test in patience

Sorry, with all respect, but that is absolutely wrong! These companies have excellent customer service:
- Kaiser has an extra, very experienced, friendly and supportive expert especially for customer service. Will always answer your questions.
- Just some days ago a friend of mine reported to me his excellent experience with customer support by Dunco: He had a short phone call, they made a needed spare part for him, and just some days later he had this part in excellent quality at his home. He was totally satiesfied.
- Kienzle is making even spare parts for you for for products of other manufacturers (discontinued products like Durst). No matter what special problem you have: You can always talk to them and in most cases they will find a solution for you.
- Jürgen Heiland of Heiland electronic belongs to the most customer friendly experts in the film photography area I have ever experienced. His commitment is really outstanding. He is always listening to his customers. Lots of products he has introduced have been a direct reaction to customer requests and wishes. Including lots of niche products. He is also very positive reacting to customer suggestions for product improvements. I know for sure because I had an additional idea for an additional feature: He looked at it, proved it, found it to be right and just some weeks later the additional feature was already implemented.

brbo said:
and prices you get from them are unfortunately eye-watering

That is also not true in general: Kaiser and ADOX both have cheap beginner models for photographers on a very tight budget. And the main line Kaiser and Dunco enlargers are very reasonably priced for their excellent and very durable quality. And much cheaper than lots of the popular high-in-demand film cameras which are so much hyped by young youtube influencers (Contax T2 / T3, Mamiya 7 / 7II, Pentax 67, Contax 645, Leica M6, Plaubel Makina 67 and so on......).
The quality you get from these companies is excellent. My Kaiser enlarger is serving me well for decades, and will probably outlive me. As these products are extremely durable, very long-living "once in a lifetime" products, they are indeed very cheap for the customer. Because they can be used for decades. Not like some cheaply made "trendy stuff" which brakes after some year of usage.

*** deleted response to deleted comment

By the way:
I am supporting young film users for years very intensively: I get questions from them on a daily basis (via email, via pm / conversations like here on photrio and in all the other photographer groups I am a member, via phone calls) and answering them. Quite often I am spending 1-2 hours a day supporting film photography beginners. I am also offering workshops for them. And for almost 15 years I am regularly organizing film photographer meetings to support the regional film photographer community in Northern Germany.
I have made concepts for products that help film photography beginners. And some of them were than realized and implemented by committed companies, and film photography beginners are now benefiting from it.

*** continuation of deleted argument

Regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Nov 14, 2021

foc said:
Misinformation is the same whether it comes from young or old.
I think a lot of it comes from laziness, not being willing to do some proper research, and just repeating the first answer they come across. ( there are no three sources of reliable info to cross reference).

Félim,
I agree. And a significant amount of misinformation is certainly caused by laziness. Some people are unwilling to take the time and effort for doing a proper research, including evaluation of the quality of sources.
And another significant amount of misinformation is caused by the unwillingness to learn the real important fundamental basics of your craft.

Best regards,
Henning

Arcadia4 · Nov 14, 2021

Tom Kershaw said:
I suspect an aspect of this may be related to availability in the UK,

Agreed, generally durst, lpl and de vere and meopta predominate on the UK used market. I bought a second hand Kaiser machine, but they are a lot less common and took a while to find one. Its only a few years ago enlargers were still being skipped and often available for free. Used prices have begun to rise particularly for the more recent or less common types esp. 4x5s. That said its hard to justify £1.5-2k on a new higher quality small/med format model and associated kit when you can buy a used for one 15-25% of that. So I can’t that see there is a shortage to buy either used or new (latter no doubt more the focus for the people present at the event). Firstcall photo for example offer new models from paterson, beseler, lpl and kaiser, from about £400 upwards

swchris · Nov 14, 2021

Old Gregg said:
Not a single soul mentioned the A12 user manual, which contains the answer.

My A12/A16/A16S manual doesn't talk about seriaL numbers.

Kino · Nov 14, 2021

In many respects, the situation is no different today than anytime before in photography; current obstacles are certainly not as great as many faced in the past.

If you want to make photos of any sort, devote the time, energy and effort to make it happen OR DON'T.

It's pretty simple. Do what you can, with what you have or can obtain and learn from there...

I found over time that excuses and complaints (both of which I have been highly guilty of in the past) just keep me from doing what I should be doing; learning.

I have to keep reminding myself of this, as I tend to be guilty of sidelining myself with words and self-defeating outlooks.

What I convince myself I desperately want, may not really be what I need and I eventually learn to use what I can obtain.

Somehow, some way, if you want to do it, you will find a way or you really didn't want to do it in the first place...

Tetenal UK Dealer Day report - November 2021

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