Tariffs and Film and Paper prices

[BrianShaw]

But since we are down to Sherlocks now, that is my cue to stop posting.

What a shame that an otherwise reasonable discussion has come to such a conclusion.

 

[Wolfram Malukker]

Another aspect of this for US-based people is that you simply do not have customs arrangements set up for "small" imports, such as when you order an item from outside the US. At present, no import taxes are collected on small items (less than $800 I believe) because the customs systems/people to actually collect this are not implemented. Many other countries have had this set up for years ... and it still does not run smoothly!

Collecting the tax on a $20 item adds both delay to the delivery, and cost. Welcome to the club!

This recently changed, and now import tax is due. Some people have been hit by this already, myself included. Currently the minimum importation tax is 32$, although I've only received a bill twice since the change happened.

 

[GregY]

Any tariffs will ultimately be 'eaten' by the end user. It ain't rocket science. At worst, this can put companies out of business.

Exactly....

 

[bfilm]

This recently changed, and now import tax is due. Some people have been hit by this already, myself included. Currently the minimum importation tax is 32$, although I've only received a bill twice since the change happened.

White it may still change, I don't think this is across-the-board yet. As I have seen it described, it is "that any merchandise originating in countries or product lines subject to Section 201, 232, or 301 tariffs no longer benefits from the $800 de minimis rule." I think there are still many things where the de minimis rule would apply.

 

[GregY]

White it may still change, I don't think this is across-the-board yet. As I have seen it described, it is "that any merchandise originating in countries or product lines subject to Section 201, 232, or 301 tariffs no longer benefits from the $800 de minimis rule." I think there are still many things where the de minimis rule would apply.

Most end users will not import themselves...the shipping costs are high and it's inconvenient. But they'll be paying because wholesale distributors get hit with the tariffs....and the end user will pay.

 

[bfilm]

Most end users will not import themselves...the shipping costs are high and it's inconvenient. But they'll be paying because wholesale distributors get hit with the tariffs....and the end user will pay.

I am thinking more of people who order something online from a maker or shop abroad, as has become so common with the internet. For example, ordering some clothing, furnishing, tools, or equipment where the value is within the de minimis range.

 

[BrianShaw]

I am thinking more of people who order something online from a maker or shop abroad, as has become so common with the internet. For example, ordering some clothing, furnishing, tools, or equipment where the value is within the de minimis range.

I may be mistaken but I believe that anyone who buys a foreign good that is delivered to USA is technically considered an “importer”. A friend of mine received import duties on a dress she bought from an Australian seller because it was manufactured in China. That was believed to be a result of the deminimus deletion. What confuses me is when a foreign seller says that they need to raise their price to account the increased tariff. There’s so much confusion…

 

[GregY]

I am thinking more of people who order something online from a maker or shop abroad, as has become so common with the internet. For example, ordering some clothing, furnishing, tools, or equipment where the value is within the de minimis range.

that may be your point, but our discussion here is about photo supplies... no?

 

[bfilm]

I may be mistaken but I believe that anyone who buys a foreign good that is delivered to USA is technically considered an “importer”. What confuses me is when a foreign seller says that they need to raise their price to add the increased tariff.

Some foreign sellers that handle the whole shipping process do include any necessary customs clearance and duties in the price they invoice you, so I guess sometimes it could be valid.

 

[bfilm]

that may be your point, but our discussion here is about photo supplies... no?

I was just responding to some other posts that were discussing the $800 de minimis rule in the US, which I took to be meaning in a broad sense. But you could include the photo supplies just the same, if you are ordering some film, paper, or equipment directly from a maker or shop abroad.

 

[GregY]

I was just responding to some other posts that were discussing the $800 de minimis rule in the US, which I took to be meaning in a broad sense. But you could include the photo supplies just the same, if you are ordering some film, paper, or equipment directly from a maker or shop abroad.

yes, though it's going to prove more expensive still. For example Fotoimpex only uses DHL to ship.... the average cost to the USA for even a small package is 50 € ($54.34 USD !).....and then on the receiving end you'll get charged by DHL (typically $20+) for customs clearance....& that's not including any tariff, import duty or state tax.....

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Somebody has to. I hope we agree on this, because If you're in the "here are our beautiful tariffs and they are paying for them" camp, there is little to discuss.

Now, if we agree that somebody will pay the tariffs on input materials that go into film there is either Alaris or the consumer that will eat the tariffs (EK will incorporate them into the price that they sell film to Alaris). Now, lets make an assumption that there is such a price beyond which consumers lower their purchases of a product. If lower sold quantities multiplied by Alaris' markup are lower than quantities sold at previous price multiplied by Alaris' markup minus tariffs, then it's in Alaris' interest to absorb at least some of the tariffs. If Alaris can pass the entire increase onto consumers film prices are not high enough, so we all better stop complaining.

In a free market, prices are usually set at the highest possible price that maximizes the seller's profits. It's a combination of price times quantity of units sold less costs. Any increase in price above that point usually lowers demand and quantities sold and lowers overall profits. The seller would have to eat the whole tariff to keep their sales constant. Any passalong of tariffs will reduce demand. That's why countries are so opposed to tariffs on their exports.

 

[bfilm]

yes, though it's going to prove more expensive still. For example Fotoimpex only uses DHL to ship.... the average cost to the USA for even a small package is 50 € ($54.34 USD !).....and then on the receiving end you'll get charged by DHL for customs clearance....& that's not including any tariff, import duty or state tax.....

Well, of course, the shipping rates vary widely from different sources. This will always be a personal decision as to whether or not it is worth it for any given purchase. But the idea with the de minimis rule is that there will not be any further cost for customs and duty.

 

[DREW WILEY]

So far, the UK per se and Japan aren't in the bullseye yet. Most color paper now comes from the EU. But modern manufacturing in general is dependent upon international supply networks, and when a markup happens at one step it gets COMPOUNDED down the line.
So YES, one way or another, we're all going to get pretty hard by this insanity. And the sheer unpredictability of it, due to the specific
individual inciting it, outright discourages a lot of industrial investment and development due to the risk. One has to know their actual expenses and profits to reasonably plan. Expect a mess. It will probably be even worse with respect to new photo equipment coming from the affected countries.

Incidental personal buying of a limited items parcel shipped from another country is a different topic; but how can that kind of question get specifically answered either when there are no "rules to the rules" yet. It's all arbitrary, with constantly shifting threats. Who knows how it's going to unravel?

I was a professional buyer for nearly 40 years, dealing with manufacturers in multiple countries, and never encountered anything like this.
The hit on construction supplies, home repair and new home building, and auto parts is likely to be devastating for many. It's impossible to restructure domestic manufacturing infrastructure and personnel at just a snap of a finger, or really be autonomous in the supply chain at all anymore. Just because film and paper are a small niche doesn't mean that they won't get somewhat trampled in the buffalo stampede,
as the overall expenses of all of us get affected.

 

[GregY]

Well, of course, the shipping rates vary widely from different sources. This will always be a personal decision as to whether or not it is worth it for any given purchase. But the idea with the de minimis rule is that there will not be any further cost for customs and duty.

that may be true...but the package still has to clear customs...& most agencies (couriers/ post service) charge for that....

 

[bfilm]

that may be true...but the package still has to clear customs...& most agencies (couriers/ post service) charge for that....

In my experience, this is usually included in the shipping cost in any purchase small enough to qualify for the de minimis rule. On larger purchases or freight shipments, it will depend upon what terms have been specified for the delivery, as far as whether or not there will be additional costs beyond the original invoice.

 

[pentaxuser]

Well, it's certainly possible that tariffs will end up playing a role in definitively dismantling the analog photography industry.

Yes and on that basis shouldn't the discussion revolve around the effect of tariffs on such goods used by the analogue photography industry and its affect on that industry that alone. As Brian had said it may be the big ticket items that will affect us more as consumers but unless those items are photography related then the discussion becomes a soapbox item and lands in jail or a place where a lock is used

pentaxuser

 

[GregY]

Yes and on that basis shouldn't the discussion revolve around the effect of tariffs on such goods used by the analogue photography industry and its affect on that industry that alone. As Brian had said it may be the big ticket items that will affect us more as consumers but unless those items are photography related then the discussion becomes a soapbox item and lands in jail or a place where a lock is used

pentaxuser

 

[ChrisGalway]

Some foreign sellers that handle the whole shipping process do include any necessary customs clearance and duties in the price they invoice you, so I guess sometimes it could be valid.

If there is stability, then processes like this can be set up and make everything easy for both seller and buyer. For example, when I (in the EU) buy an item costing <€150 from China via eBay or AliExpress, those companies add on the VAT so that the parcel sails through customs checks and there are no additional taxes or handling fees. Since I pay VAT on everything except food and a few other items, domestic or imported, it is not an import tax ... for the end customer it's a form of "sales tax" (although technically it's different), and it's applied to almost everything I buy anyway.

But to have a simple system like this you need stability, and cooperation and we have nothing like this situation with the US at present. This means that for US customers, it's not going to be possible to pre-pay any import taxes when you buy your item online, so your incoming parcels are going to be stopped by Customs, delayed until you pay the charges, and then on top of that the importing agent (DHL/US/USPS, whatever) will charge you a fee.

The key words are: stability and cooperation.

 

[bfilm]

But to have a simple system like this you need stability, and cooperation and we have nothing like this situation with the US at present. This means that for US customers, it's not going to be possible to pre-pay any import taxes when you buy your item online, so your incoming parcels are going to be stopped by Customs, delayed until you pay the charges, and then on top of that the importing agent (DHL/US/USPS, whatever) will charge you a fee.

As with all of this discussion, we will have to see how it develops in the coming weeks. But in the past, none of this has been an issue with the smaller purchases that fall within the $800 de minimis rule. There are no additional customs or duty charges to be figured out for those shipments. And for larger purchases, it would depend upon the terms. Companies abroad have been able to make DDP (Delivered Duty Paid) shipments to the US through the shipping companies.

As DHL explains it:

"DDP stands for "Delivered Duty Paid." Under this Incoterm, the seller takes on the responsibility for shipping. This includes risks, transportation, loading, customs fees, duties, taxes, and insurance. If the seller works with a customs broker, like DHL Express, they typically are billed for the costs before the goods are imported. Once they drop off the items at a named destination, the buyer assumes liability."

"People may also refer to this term as DTP - Duties and Taxes Paid."

 

[FotoD]

These days it sure is nice to have Foma and Adox in the EU, and also Ilford not too far away. I hope they can keep their prices down by increasing sales in the rest of the world, when one country is introducing trade barriers.

 

[GregY]

If there is stability, then processes like this can be set up and make everything easy for both seller and buyer. For example, when I (in the EU) buy an item costing <€150 from China via eBay or AliExpress, those companies add on the VAT so that the parcel sails through customs checks and there are no additional taxes or handling fees. Since I pay VAT on everything except food and a few other items, domestic or imported, it is not an import tax ... for the end customer it's a form of "sales tax" (although technically it's different), and it's applied to almost everything I buy anyway.

But to have a simple system like this you need stability, and cooperation and we have nothing like this situation with the US at present. This means that for US customers, it's not going to be possible to pre-pay any import taxes when you buy your item online, so your incoming parcels are going to be stopped by Customs, delayed until you pay the charges, and then on top of that the importing agent (DHL/US/USPS, whatever) will charge you a fee.

The key words are: stability and cooperation.

Very well articulated Chris.....

 

[koraks]

Yes and on that basis shouldn't the discussion revolve around the effect of tariffs on such goods used by the analogue photography industry and its affect on that industry that alone.

The discussion as I read it for the most part focuses on photo-related goods and industries. It is of course one of those topics that easily strays into territory we'd rather not venture, but so far, I'd say it's doing OK.

 

[ChrisGalway]

As with all of this discussion, we will have to see how it develops in the coming weeks. But in the past, none of this has been an issue with the smaller purchases that fall within the $800 de minimis rule. There are no additional customs or duty charges to be figured out for those shipments. And for larger purchases, it would depend upon the terms. Companies abroad have been able to make DDP (Delivered Duty Paid) shipments to the US through the shipping companies.

I really hope that the $800 de minimus rule is retained for folks in the US, but my impression was that it's going to disappear, not just for imports of certain goods and from certain countries, but for all goods and countries.

My main point was that, even if it does disappear, importing/exporting need not be an exhausting and expensive process IF there is stability and cooperation ... both in short supply right now.

 

[GregY]

While the initial question was about film & paper, it's worth considering that tariffs will also affect those who choose digital photography in the USA.... What cameras, lenses, printers, computers are made in the USA?