Tariffs and Film and Paper prices

[Paul Howell]

Everything is going to be OK. We've already been through the most inflationary period in my 68 year life. And that's a fact. I'm confident that an equilibrium is at hand on trade deficits and we'll all be better off for it in the long term. Look at it this way... photographic paper prices are presently prohibitive to a paralyzing degree. The only possible direction in that can only be an improvement at this juncture.

Not so much here are the 10 highest inflation rates by year, in our lifetime by decade it was the 70s to 80s The world economy and our economy has changed for the better or worse in the last 40s years, now a global economy. Undoing our relatioshi8p with our trading partners will be expensive and painful for the average American. God only knows what AI will bring.

The 10 Highest Annual Inflation Rates in U.S. History

1. 1917: 17.84%
2. 1918: 17.28%
3. 1920: 15.63%
4. 1919: 15.24%
5. 1947: 14.39%
6. 1980: 13.55%
7. 1979: 11.25%
8. 1974: 11.06%
9. 1942: 10.92%
10. 1981: 10.34%

 

[pentaxuser]

Everything that goes into making it is almost certainly imported by all the entities doing that manufacture. So tariffs affect the costs - they increase them.
In turn, as most of the end product is exported - Ilford/Harman for one sell most of their product in the USA - every exported item may also have its retail cost increased by the tariffs imposed by the importing nation.
Indirectly, if the retail sales decrease as a result of the higher retail prices made necessary by imposed tariffs, than any benefits flowing from economies of scale also are reduced, resulting in additional per unit costs.

Yes I think I understand all that but I am hoping for an answer from 4FU as I got the impression that he may have been suggesting that the imposition tariffs of tariffs will improve( as in improve from a consumer aspect) paper prices

However I may, as I said in the post, have misunderstood the meaning of what he meant hence my post to him


pentaxuser

 

[pentaxuser]

My post was merely a response to the very first post. Your question should be addressed to that person. There may very well be an adjustment to trade tariffs all across the board to things having nothing to do with photo supplies other than in the broadest sense. The price of widgets and the price of flanges are 2 entirely unrelated markets, other that the fact hey both contribute to the rise and fall of tides, which in turn raises or lowers all ships. Who knows, maybe some small group of Canadians will get mad at the tariff talk and set up a 36 inch wide film coating and slitting line in a vacant rental building of modest size and make film and paper that rivals Kodak with their huge 15 foot wide coating machines. But what do I know? Apparently there's anger out there or this thread would not have been started. Anger can be a useful motivator.

Thanks It was primarily your reference to paper prices for the consumer that I was confused about. That's why I avoided any reference to the purpose of the imposition of tariffs or "equilibrium" or their overall desired outcome as that's a political matter or close enough to it to be on the slope that leads to politics

I remain confused on the link to paper price improvement for the U.S consumer of such paper but that's OK .

pentaxuser

 

[GregY]

Everything is going to be OK. We've already been through the most inflationary period in my 68 year life. And that's a fact. I'm confident that an equilibrium is at hand on trade deficits and we'll all be better off for it in the long term. Look at it this way... photographic paper prices are presently prohibitive to a paralyzing degree. The only possible direction in that can only be an improvement at this juncture.

F4....Have you any example of the price of paper going down? I've never seen it in many decades of darkroom work......but i have seen fine papers disappear... Azo, Portriga, Guillemot Brilliant, Fortezo & Forte Polygrade, Oriental Seagull, Ilford Galerie.....

 

[cliveh]

So can we also talk about Canada being a 51st state of the USA?

 

[GregY]

So can we also talk about Canada being a 51st state of the USA?

Are you looking for a fight ?

 

[bfilm]

It is possible that I have missed or overlooked it, but I have not seen anything yet about tariffs that would affect photographic film and paper. There have, so far, not been any across-the-board tariffs imposed by the United States on materials or goods from Great Britain, Europe, or Japan.

The tariffs in place or coming into effect soon are on steel, aluminum, and imported automobiles and components. There is some discussion on expanding tariffs to lumber, copper, semiconductors, pharmaceuticals, and agricultural products.

But if Great Britain or Europe decide to respond by adding VAT on exports, then that could potentially affect prices.

 

[joho]

Anyone remember the price difference in the U.S. between kodak and ilford ??? 1975 ???
One case in point before the E.U. [Europe Common Market] there was a Greek photo paper [Elphot] it was styled paper with effect of Agfa-rapid a wonderful paper.
No Greek bought it !!!! Agfa was twice the price and still Elpfot was no go ??!!
One way to look at it, for tariffs is ....the tax on imported photo stuff can go help the local production...
NOTE: the taxes are set when imported,by the country where it is finial destination ... first time I hear of a tax for a product that leaves a country --- so to whom the money go's???

 

[cliveh]

Trade is not just about price. If I want a camera I would probably by a Leica regardless of the price. It is about what people want.

 

[koraks]

So can we also talk about Canada being a 51st state of the USA?

No, of course not. Don't spoil this for the rest by seeing how far you can push it.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Everything is going to be OK. We've already been through the most inflationary period in my 68 year life. And that's a fact. I'm confident that an equilibrium is at hand on trade deficits and we'll all be better off for it in the long term. Look at it this way... photographic paper prices are presently prohibitive to a paralyzing degree. The only possible direction in that can only be an improvement at this juncture.

Not so much here are the 10 highest inflation rates by year, in our lifetime by decade it was the 70s to 80s The world economy and our economy has changed for the better or worse in the last 40s years, now a global economy. Undoing our relatioshi8p with our trading partners will be expensive and painful for the average American. God only knows what AI will bring.

The 10 Highest Annual Inflation Rates in U.S. History

1. 1917: 17.84%
2. 1918: 17.28%
3. 1920: 15.63%
4. 1919: 15.24%
5. 1947: 14.39%
6. 1980: 13.55%
7. 1979: 11.25%
8. 1974: 11.06%
9. 1942: 10.92%
10. 1981: 10.34%

Not to mention compounded inflation during the period from 1968 through 1981.

Historical U.S. Inflation Rate by Year: 1929 to 2025

By looking at the inflation rate each year, you can gain insight into how prices changed and how events around the globe impacted the average U.S. consumer.

www.investopedia.com

Makes those individual year rates look puny in comparison. F4U must not have been paying attention during that part of his/my life. I certainly was.

If Kodak were still making gelatin silver paper along with film, and had vertically integrated sources of the inputs to those products, I'd be unconcerned about tariffs. Unfortunately, that isn't the case, so we'll see what happens.

 

[brbo]

In this case, I have reliable information that indicates that it is generally true. Eastman Kodak has been struggling with major increases in their input costs, along with availability issues, and each such factor is something that management's policies require them to incorporate in their price to Kodak Alaris.

That was exactly my point. Alaris is busting EK's b***, of a $20 Ektar roll EK is not getting even close to $10. Not even close. So a dollar of increase in production (at worse - if EK is importing all of the ingredients and have to pay their people more because tariffs will bring inflation to US) is not so horrible. If demand for film would be so weak that sales would drop if Alaris tried to pass all the tariffs to the consumers, Alaris has more than a healthy cushion to eat all or some of the price increase.

But if Great Britain or Europe decide to respond by adding VAT on exports, then that could potentially affect prices.

A what?!

 

[GregY]

I too spotted a "political" inference early on, and am sure this thread is on the moderators' radar, but I did see an interesting post about Canada starting t make their own supplies. To my knowledge, there are no Canadian photographic consumable supplies, such as paper or film. Imagine if Canada rolled up it's shirt sleeves and got busy making photographic paper. I bet it would be excellent quality. I'm sure as a US citizen I'd give it a try and would probably like it.

F4... how do you think products made in Canada would benefit the U.S. user? Wouldn't it be of more benefit for a company (ies) in the U.S. to "roll up their sleeves" and start making paper?

 

[Radost]

Are these stupid tariffs going to affect film and paper prices??? that would really suck for analog!!
please chime in!!!!!

Buy American and you are fine.

 

[GregY]

Buy American and you are fine.

R, what company in the USA is making photographic enlarging paper?.....
(I don't have a dog in the fight so to speak, since Ilford & Foma are made in Europe.....but as a Canadian i've stopped buying Kodak film.....)

 

[Paul Howell]

F4... how do you think products made in Canada would benefit the U.S. user? Wouldn't it be of more benefit for a company (ies) in the U.S. to "roll up their sleeves" and start making paper?

What many don't understand is that the new billionaires are not making money in heavy industries, it is tech. Who is going to invest even say for the sake of argument $500 million to make a new paper coating plant. (Well maybe someone might get the old Kodak plant in Denver at a steal, but it so large the scale of production is much too large) or a couple of billion for a new steel plant? Even a couple of billion and 10 years to make a pharmacy plant to make generic drugs. Do you think Musk is on board with that?

 

[ags2mikon]

I don't have a crystal ball so I don't know how it will turn out, but some players may lower their prices and accept a lower margin to maintain sales like the Chinese truck tire manufactures did when the tariff monster bit some years ago. I bought 6 new tires for the motor home after the tariffs went into effect. I should have had to pay 100 dollars apiece more but it was only about 40 dollars. So it may not be as bad as we think.

 

[pentaxuser]

It is possible that I have missed or overlooked it, but I have not seen anything yet about tariffs that would affect photographic film and paper. There have, so far, not been any across-the-board tariffs imposed by the United States on materials or goods from Great Britain, Europe, or Japan.

The tariffs in place or coming into effect soon are on steel, aluminum, and imported automobiles and components. There is some discussion on expanding tariffs to lumber, copper, semiconductors, pharmaceuticals, and agricultural products.

But if Great Britain or Europe decide to respond by adding VAT on exports, then that could potentially affect prices.

Doesn't sound as if that is the U.K. government's reading of the situation. It seems to believe that short of a change of mind on the part of POTUS before his announcement at 4:00pm Washington time the imposition of tariffs is across the board

pentaxuser

 

[Paul Howell]

I don't have a crystal ball so I don't know how it will turn out, but some players may lower their prices and accept a lower margin to maintain sales like the Chinese truck tire manufactures did when the tariff monster bit some years ago. I bought 6 new tires for the motor home after the tariffs went into effect. I should have had to pay 100 dollars apiece more but it was only about 40 dollars. So it may not be as bad as we think.

It is complicated, the range of importers who pay the tariffs is broad. Some like BMW U.S.A is owned by BMW a German company, so in effect the parent company will pay the tariffs, other goods are imported by wholesale companies, others retail such as Walmart. Walmart may not have enough of a margin to absorb costs, while BMW U.SA might be able to absorb at least some of the cost. I doubt Foma can absorb much of the cost. I expect I will pay 20% more for film and paper.

 

[bfilm]

Doesn't sound as if that is the U.K. government's reading of the situation. It seems to believe that short of a change of mind on the part of POTUS before his announcement at 4:00pm Washington time the imposition of tariffs is across the board

There does seem to be some talk now of 20% tariff across-the-board, potentially with lower rates for some countries. Hopefully, there will still be some categories without tariffs.

With how on-again, off-again this has been, I guess we just have to see how it develops.

 

[MattKing]

That was exactly my point. Alaris is busting EK's b***, of a $20 Ektar roll EK is not getting even close to $10. Not even close. So a dollar of increase in production (at worse - if EK is importing all of the ingredients and have to pay their people more because tariffs will bring inflation to US) is not so horrible. If demand for film would be so weak that sales would drop if Alaris tried to pass all the tariffs to the consumers, Alaris has more than a healthy cushion to eat all or some of the price increase.



A what?!

Not according to the publicly available financial statements.
It actually costs a significant amount to get the film into end users' hands - more per roll than it takes to make it.

 

[spark]

Over the last 40 years, the supplier base for businesses manufacturing technical products has shrunk dramatically.
You wish build a coating plant somewhere, but who makes the equipment that you need? Who manufactures the chemicals? The new Ferrania started out refurbishing an existing facility and they took a few years to start producing film in quantity.

Digital photography is affected as well. The semiconductor industry is spread around the world. A camera made in China has electronic devices fabricated in Taiwan on American and Dutch equipment from Japanese wafers and German chemicals. The back end packaging was done in the Philippines, and the software by a company registered in Ireland. The industry grew in a relatively open world, its quite a switch to add a tax on things every time they pass a border.

 

[BrianShaw]

My worry is the big-ticket items. Film and paper are the least of my worries.

 

[GregY]

My worry is the big-ticket items. Film and paper are the least of my worries.

For hobby/amateur photographers these can be big items....a few thousand $$ changes a family budget.
Big ticket items....what do you have in mind Brian. Maybe you keep your car a few years more instead of getting the new model..... The economic model immediately post-war may return?
It seems though that tariffs will filter down through to many products..... no?

 

[BrianShaw]

For hobby/amateur photographers these can be big items....a few thousand $$ changes a family budget.
Big ticket items....what do you have in mind Brian. Maybe you keep your car a few years more instead of getting the new model..... The economic model immediately post-war may return?
It seems though that tariffs will filter down through to many products..... no?

No disagreement. What I have in mind are autos, appliances, home repairs. Sometimes these fail unexpectedly and need replacement without delay. But lots of small impacts can add up quickly.