Taking the plunge - Sanity checks, questions ...

dmr · Jun 6, 2017

Not really sure if this should go in darkroom or color processing, so here goes ...

The main reason I don't shoot as much film as I used to a few years back is that getting it processed can best be described as a total pain in the tush!

The one remaining local lab seems to be on a three-day schedule now and hey, I want instant gratification! I used to be able to drop film off over lunch at the Walgreens about 6 blocks away and pick up the negatives and the CD mid afternoon on my way home.

Anyway, I'm considering, very seriously, trying home development of color negative film and I've researched all kinds of things during this last trip and I know some (many) of you do this at home so I thought I would do a sanity check here and ask a few possibly stupid questions.

I have, in the past, developed B&W film (or rather assisted/observed) back in college. I didn't particularly enjoy it so I never took up home processing. I do know more or less how to do it. I also have lab experience so I'm comfortable and confident mixing and measuring and such.

Here's what I've come up with as a list of what I'll need, regarding the actual special things:

1. Tank and reel. I'm thinking of starting with the 8 oz. single reel tank.

2. Film thermometer. I have a candy thermometer which starts out at 100F but I don't think it's that accurate.

3. Film squeegee.

I can get all of the above locally with no problem at all.

I've already got, or can get with no problem, things like ...

Kitty litter pan for warming (tempering) the solutions.

1L. soda bottles. (Hey, if they hold carbonation, they should be gas-impermeable, right?)

Clip type clothes hangers and a few extra clothes pins.

Paper towels, sponges, etc.

Big Burning Question #1: Am I missing anything obvious?

I've read all kinds of threads here and on other boards and I think I have a good idea of the process.

The big thing I'll need is a color processing kit and this is where I could use some advice as far as which one, etc. I can't get this locally and I've looked on the web sites from the "usual suspect" dealers and found several similar kits.

I **KNOW** I'll prefer an all-liquid kit. Less muss and fuss! Almost a no-brainer, for me that is.

They all look almost identical, but the one that caught my attention is from Cinestill, and that's a film I've enjoyed shooting recently. I'm probably gonna try a 1L/1Qt. kit first to get the feel of things. There's also Arista, Tetenal, and a few others.

Big Burning Question #2: Is there REALLY any major difference between these kits? Is there one which is REALLY better than the others?

There's also a Rollei kit which is more spendy than the others, and the big difference I can see is that Rollei *CLAIMS* to process about twice as many rolls as the other 1L/1Qt kits. Is the Rollei kit REALLY that much better? (There are people who swear they have done 24 rolls or so with the Arista/Tetenal 1L/1Qt kits.)

It looks like, time-wise, I should be able to do a roll in, conservatively, about an hour, including set-up, tempering, clean-up, and put-away. Is this realistic?

Thanks everyone!

darkosaric · Jun 6, 2017

dmr said:
Film squeegee.

I don't use this, leads to problems (at least to me - emulsion damage). Last wash is in demineralised water - and that is that.

Malcolm Stewart · Jun 6, 2017

I've done lots of home processing over the decades, and to me one hour seems quite tight, but I do tend to stare at thermometers for quite a long time! I've done mostly B&W and E6, with just a few colour neg in the days before C22 & C41. What about drying? Does colour neg film benefit from being dried in warm air? I must have read that E6 films did, as I made myself a warm air film drying cabinet.
Will your through-put of films, after the initial excitement, be sufficient to use your chemicals before they expire? That's a consideration for me now, as whilst I have all the hardware for E6, I still shoot digital, and that reduces my need for E6, and chemicals have a limited life once opened.

Whatever, Good luck and have fun!

Larry the sailor · Jun 6, 2017

As a recent entrant to C41 my opinion is that as far as the actual process C41 is more straightforward than B&W, fewer variables. I've only used the 1ltr powder kits from Freestyle, mixing is no biggie.
A good thermometer and a timer of some sort are important.
Another vote for ditching the squeegee.
Good luck.

tonyowen34 · Jun 6, 2017

dmr said:
pick up the negatives and the CD mid afternoon on my way home./QUOTE]
Do you have a means/source for scanning your [home] processed negatives to produce a CD? or are you intending to use an enlarger to get the 'positive' images??
regards

Tony

RauschenOderKorn · Jun 6, 2017

darkosaric said:
I don't use this, leads to problems (at least to me - emulsion damage). Last wash is in demineralised water - and that is that.

+1

a film squeegee is the perfect way to scratch your film all over. The best way to get your film dry and stain free is using demineralised water for the last wash and then giving it a few rounds in a salad spinner.

About missing something: I cannot see anything obvious, but you have to get the film on the reel in total darkness. Either you have a room suitable for that or you need to get a changing bag / box. Furthermore you might need to get the washing water to temperature, so consider sufficient volume for that. Soda bottles will do for a start, but make sure that NOBODY can confuse them with an actual soda!

Neal · Jun 6, 2017

Dear dmr,

Good news, it's not difficult at all. I use this kit. You want a good thermometer. Look here.

The kits on the last page might save you some effort as well.

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

rpavich · Jun 6, 2017

You haven't missed anything except probably to get a good digital thermometer from Amazon..they are cheap. You can get as fancy or as simple as you like.

Check out this video to help you envision what's going to happen.

btaylor · Jun 6, 2017

Yes, C41 developing is pretty easy (of course you'll need a better thermometer and a dark place to load). Have you thought about what you're going to do after processing to be able to see and present the images? Scan them at home? Wet print them?
Also I would think about getting more than a 1 reel tank + reel. While enjoyable, I also find film development kind of tedious. Since the work is essentially the same, I try to process 2 or more rolls at a time. Just a thought.

MattKing · Jun 6, 2017

No squeegee.
With C41 film, your last solution isn't the wash - it is some sort of stabilizer/final rinse. Otherwise your films will be vulnerable to bacteria.
So you need to be careful with the demineralized water recommendation.
A 2 roll tank is a good idea.

Sirius Glass · Jun 6, 2017

dmr said:
3. Film squeegee.

darkosaric said:
I don't use this, leads to problems (at least to me - emulsion damage). Last wash is in demineralised water - and that is that.

RauschenOderKorn said:
+1

a film squeegee is the perfect way to scratch your film all over. The best way to get your film dry and stain free is using demineralised water for the last wash and then giving it a few rounds in a salad spinner.

About missing something: I cannot see anything obvious, but you have to get the film on the reel in total darkness. Either you have a room suitable for that or you need to get a changing bag / box. Furthermore you might need to get the washing water to temperature, so consider sufficient volume for that. Soda bottles will do for a start, but make sure that NOBODY can confuse them with an actual soda!

MattKing said:
No squeegee.
With C41 film, your last solution isn't the wash - it is some sort of stabilizer/final rinse. Otherwise your films will be vulnerable to bacteria.
So you need to be careful with the demineralized water recommendation.
A 2 roll tank is a good idea.

No, no, no! No squeegee please. Not only do they streak and mar negatives, they also generate APUG threads on what went wrong.

Sirius Glass · Jun 6, 2017

Color negative development is only a little harder than black & white development. As you noted, temperature control and timing are the critical parts.

ac12 · Jun 6, 2017

One caution, unless you can mix just the amount you need for a roll of film, you would be mixing a volume of chemistry. Some of the chemicals may age. So if you don't use it up before it ages, you loose the chemical . . . $$ Same happens in b&w, but the cost is lower.

I would get a GOOD dial or digital thermometer. A liquid or mercury thermometer while good, takes too long to take the temp.

If you use stainless steel tank and reel, I would recommend you get the 2 reel tank. If you load only 1 reel, put the empty reel on top of the loaded reel, as a spacer, and just use a bit over half the full fill of chemicals. That gives you the option of developing 2 rolls of film if you want to.
Stainless steel reels are more difficult to learn to use than plastic reels, but one you get the hang of it, it is easy to use. Kinda like learning to drive a stick shift car. I'm the wierd guy in the class who uses the stainless steel reel and tank rather than the plastic reel and tank that everyone else uses.

Find a DUST FREE place to hang and dry the film.

A good easy to use and easy to read timer. A digital kitchen timer with minute and second display would work. I like and use the old Gralab 300 analog timer.

Measuring cups. Go to the Dollar store, $1 each.

Cholentpot · Jun 6, 2017

Funnel to put the chems back into the bottles. Changing bag and bottle opener. A good timer app.

C-41 is pretty simple, even simpler than b&w in some ways. Chems last longer than manufacture recommends generally and develops more rolls of you are not too picky.

Sirius Glass · Jun 6, 2017

I use the 1 liter Unicolor C-41 Development Kits and I save up 12 to 16 rolls of film and do all the batches in two to three days.

GRHazelton · Jun 6, 2017

RauschenOderKorn said:
+1

a film squeegee is the perfect way to scratch your film all over. The best way to get your film dry and stain free is using demineralised water for the last wash and then giving it a few rounds in a salad spinner.

About missing something: I cannot see anything obvious, but you have to get the film on the reel in total darkness. Either you have a room suitable for that or you need to get a changing bag / box. Furthermore you might need to get the washing water to temperature, so consider sufficient volume for that. Soda bottles will do for a start, but make sure that NOBODY can confuse them with an actual soda!

"The best way to get your film dry and stain free is using demineralised water for the last wash and then giving it a few rounds in a salad spinner." Salad spinner?? With the film still on the reel or.....? Very interesting! If the film is still on the reel it would seem to present a really unbalanced "load" for the spinner. Off the real sounds potentially damaging.

Sirius Glass · Jun 6, 2017

The best way to get your film dry and stain free is to use PhotoFlo or equivalent for black & white and Stabilizer for C-41 film. Only if those do not give good results should one look for alternatives.

rpavich · Jun 6, 2017

GRHazelton said:
"The best way to get your film dry and stain free is using demineralised water for the last wash and then giving it a few rounds in a salad spinner." Salad spinner?? With the film still on the reel or.....? Very interesting! If the film is still on the reel it would seem to present a really unbalanced "load" for the spinner. Off the real sounds potentially damaging.

Yes, lol a salad spinner.

Not a drop of water remains and then you load the reel in your homemade film dryer ( 4" pvc with a duct fan and filter taped to the end) and you have dry, spot free, dust free film in 1 hour.

GRHazelton · Jun 6, 2017

rpavich said:
View attachment 180665 View attachment 180666
Yes, lol a salad spinner.

Not a drop of water remains and then you load the reel in your homemade film dryer ( 4" pvc with a duct fan and filter taped to the end) and you have dry, spot free, dust free film in 1 hour.

Okay! I see what you mean. I could do that. BTW, where in WVa do you live? My folks moved to WVa in 1967 when my Father took a position at WVa Tech. They loved the place!

dmr · Jun 6, 2017

First of all, thanks everyone! This is exactly what I'm looking for. I appreciate it!

A few comments on your talking points and a few more questions ...

darkosaric said:
I don't use this, leads to problems (at least to me - emulsion damage). Last wash is in demineralised water - and that is that.

Consensus says to avoid a squeegee. Scratch that! (No pun intended!)

See noted on "Last wash" below. I have an almost-endless supply of (free) distilled water if I want to drive waaaayyy across town to get it, or I can pay for it at Walgreens, which is what I plan to use for all processing steps.

Malcolm Stewart said:
Will your through-put of films, after the initial excitement, be sufficient to use your chemicals before they expire?

The best guess I can make is an AVERAGE of maybe one roll per week, now that I'll have quick and convenient processing. I currently do an average of about one roll a month, but I've gotten discouraged simply because it's a pain to get it processed.

I can see myself going a few weeks at time with nothing, and then one week with maybe 3-4 or more rolls.

This is why I'm talking about the smaller 1L/1Qt. kits. From what I've read, mixed developer will keep for at least a week or so in a gas-tight bottle (on "Another Network" someone recommended Bloxygen, an argon O2-displacer) and the unmixed portions should be good for 2 months max.

If things work out and I can play around a bit, I'm very intrigued with "one shot" developing, where you mix only what you need for 1-2 rolls and discard it. Somebody (here?) reported diluting the color developer 1:9 and developing for something like 30 minutes. I don't know if I'll try things that extreme.

RauschenOderKorn said:
for the last wash and then giving it a few rounds in a salad spinner.

Hmmmm ... First time I heard that idea. I can see how it would centrifuge all of the droplets off.

but you have to get the film on the reel in total darkness. Either you have a room suitable for that or you need to get a changing bag / box.

I've done the bathroom with a towel stuffed under the door when I've needed total darkness for a few things. Works great.

Soda bottles will do for a start, but make sure that NOBODY can confuse them with an actual soda!

LOL, (I know it's not really funny!) I can just imagine someone very thirsty opening the fridge, grabbing the first bottle in sight, and chugging blix!

btaylor said:
Have you thought about what you're going to do after processing to be able to see and present the images?

Yes, already have that in place and it's been in use for 10 years plus. K-M SD (or is it DS?) IV scanner. That's the easy part.

MattKing said:
With C41 film, your last solution isn't the wash - it is some sort of stabilizer/final rinse.

Here's that "Last Wash" thing. As you say, the last solution for all of the kits I've seen is not plain old H2O but "Stabilizer", which I assume has some kind of wetting agent (glycerine??) in it. I do "get it" that they want this to be the final solution before the dry.

Do some of you actually do a final wash AFTER the stabilizer?

Sirius Glass said:
No, no, no! No squeegee please. ... they also generate APUG threads on what went wrong.

LOL, the best reason I've heard to forego the squeegee!

ac12 said:
Measuring cups. Go to the Dollar store, $1 each.

Actually, I do have a supply of lab grade graduates.

(Don't ask!)

Cholentpot said:
Changing bag and bottle opener.

Here's the way I plan to do it, and it seems, to me anyway, easier than futzing around with a bottle opener in the dark. I have one of those film leader puller-outer things in my gadget bag. I plan to pull the leader out and cut the end square in a lighted room, then retire to the throne room (dark), wind the film on the reel, and then cut off the other end when it's wound on the reel. (Yes, remember to take the tank and lid into the bathroom!)

Chems last longer than manufacture recommends generally and develops more rolls of you are not too picky.

This is what quite a few are saying.

So, as take-aways so far I have ...

1. No squeegee!
2. Precise mixing, time and temperature control.
3. No squeegee.
4. Pay attention to aging of chemicals.
5. No squeegee! QED.

Anything else?

Thanks again, gang!

Cholentpot · Jun 6, 2017

dmr said:
First of all, thanks everyone! This is exactly what I'm looking for. I appreciate it!

A few comments on your talking points and a few more questions ...

Consensus says to avoid a squeegee. Scratch that! (No pun intended!)

See noted on "Last wash" below. I have an almost-endless supply of (free) distilled water if I want to drive waaaayyy across town to get it, or I can pay for it at Walgreens, which is what I plan to use for all processing steps.

The best guess I can make is an AVERAGE of maybe one roll per week, now that I'll have quick and convenient processing. I currently do an average of about one roll a month, but I've gotten discouraged simply because it's a pain to get it processed.

I can see myself going a few weeks at time with nothing, and then one week with maybe 3-4 or more rolls.

This is why I'm talking about the smaller 1L/1Qt. kits. From what I've read, mixed developer will keep for at least a week or so in a gas-tight bottle (on "Another Network" someone recommended Bloxygen, an argon O2-displacer) and the unmixed portions should be good for 2 months max.

If things work out and I can play around a bit, I'm very intrigued with "one shot" developing, where you mix only what you need for 1-2 rolls and discard it. Somebody (here?) reported diluting the color developer 1:9 and developing for something like 30 minutes. I don't know if I'll try things that extreme.

Hmmmm ... First time I heard that idea. I can see how it would centrifuge all of the droplets off.

I've done the bathroom with a towel stuffed under the door when I've needed total darkness for a few things. Works great.

LOL, (I know it's not really funny!) I can just imagine someone very thirsty opening the fridge, grabbing the first bottle in sight, and chugging blix!

Yes, already have that in place and it's been in use for 10 years plus. K-M SD (or is it DS?) IV scanner. That's the easy part.

Here's that "Last Wash" thing. As you say, the last solution for all of the kits I've seen is not plain old H2O but "Stabilizer", which I assume has some kind of wetting agent (glycerine??) in it. I do "get it" that they want this to be the final solution before the dry.

Do some of you actually do a final wash AFTER the stabilizer?

LOL, the best reason I've heard to forego the squeegee!

Actually, I do have a supply of lab grade graduates. (Don't ask!)

Here's the way I plan to do it, and it seems, to me anyway, easier than futzing around with a bottle opener in the dark. I have one of those film leader puller-outer things in my gadget bag. I plan to pull the leader out and cut the end square in a lighted room, then retire to the throne room (dark), wind the film on the reel, and then cut off the other end when it's wound on the reel. (Yes, remember to take the tank and lid into the bathroom!)

This is what quite a few are saying.

So, as take-aways so far I have ...

1. No squeegee!
2. Precise mixing, time and temperature control.
3. No squeegee.
4. Pay attention to aging of chemicals.
5. No squeegee! QED.

Anything else?

Thanks again, gang!

I try as hard as I can to leave the lead out. If it goes in I try to use the lick method. Works sometimes...

Kevin Caulfield · Jun 6, 2017

Don't do a final wash after the stabilizer. The stabilizer needs to dry on the film. It helps to protect it.

Larry the sailor · Jun 7, 2017

And don't use a squeegee.

Punker · Jun 7, 2017

dmr said:
The best guess I can make is an AVERAGE of maybe one roll per week, now that I'll have quick and convenient processing. I currently do an average of about one roll a month, but I've gotten discouraged simply because it's a pain to get it processed.

I can see myself going a few weeks at time with nothing, and then one week with maybe 3-4 or more rolls.

This is why I'm talking about the smaller 1L/1Qt. kits. From what I've read, mixed developer will keep for at least a week or so in a gas-tight bottle (on "Another Network" someone recommended Bloxygen, an argon O2-displacer) and the unmixed portions should be good for 2 months max.

Get accordion bottles for your C41. A roll a week is fine this way; no need to hoard film. In an accordion bottle with the air evacuated, C41 chems have lasted me well past 6 months. If I go a month without doing a roll, I'll generally add 20 seconds to the developing next time just in case.

As your developer ages you will notice your film coming out thinner. Don't worry because it will never just fail and completely ruin a roll. Next batch add 30 seconds or so (to the developer only) if you want to extend the life and are happy with nominal color shifts. I've gotten over 20 rolls out of a 1L kit with little more than some slight magenta color shifts that were easily correctible in post processing.

rpavich · Jun 7, 2017

GRHazelton said:
Okay! I see what you mean. I could do that. BTW, where in WVa do you live? My folks moved to WVa in 1967 when my Father took a position at WVa Tech. They loved the place!

What a small world!

I live in North Central WV; Bridgeport to be exact. That's 45 minutes south of Morgantown.

Taking the plunge - Sanity checks, questions ...

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