Survey - Kodachrome Revival Price Point?

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What is the MAXIMUM you be willing to pay for Kodachrome plus processing?

  • film + processing <$40 per roll

    Votes: 26 25.7%
  • film + processing <$50 per roll

    Votes: 12 11.9%
  • film + processing <$60 per roll

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • film + processing <$70 per roll

    Votes: 2 2.0%
  • No price limit

    Votes: 3 3.0%
  • uninterested at any price

    Votes: 58 57.4%

  • Total voters
    101
  • Poll closed .
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Nzoomed

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The Kodak announcement was made over four years ago. Has any progress been made toward that end? As far as Kodachrome goes, nothing was said about processing it.

Its taken Kodak 4 years to even make some profits again.
I doubt they have had much money to invest in this area.
They never mentioned anything about Kodachrome processing, your right, i think they were saying technically that small runs of Kodachrome are possible, does not mean they will do it.

I just hope they do invest in a smaller coater as I believe we would definitely see a return to E6 from Kodak if they build a new coater.
 

Photo Engineer

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The smallest production machine requires 1 mile of film as leader and 1 mile of film as trailer just for 1 mile of "good" film. The defect rate is less than 10%. This is produced in about 15 minutes. However, it takes about 1 month of preparation to gather or make the special materials for each run. If you scale down, the length is reduced, the time to prepare materials is the same, and the defect rate goes up. It may take several hours to make.

With this in mind, consider the cost of a roll of film as a function of scaling down. I think it would go up about 10X myself. Just a WAG based on these figure.

And AFAIK, no progress has been made on this because no work has been done on this because it is a dead end.

PE
 

Photo Engineer

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Smaller coaters....

They have/had at least 2 small extrusion coaters, 2 small solvent coaters, 1 small fast single layer coater, 3 medium (5") slide coaters, and 1 large (11") slide or curtain coater in research. In the plant they have several narrow (21") machines for experiments.

Is that enough?

Some are still there and are being used.

PE
 

wiltw

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bring back the film! ignore the fact that you cannot possibly get it processed...we WANT it!

:wondering:
 

DREW WILEY

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Yeah, cloning fossil DNA. At least that is something actually under discussion somewhere.
 

pdeeh

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What is certain is that someone somewhere is cloning people who endlessly post about reviving kodachrome ...
 

DREW WILEY

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Yes, genetic engineering is the answer. If they can make spider silk from goat's milk, and make a fluorescent green cat using jellyfish DNA, they can
probably invent a human that salivates Kodachrome emulsion.
 

falotico

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Everything about Kodachrome film is in the public domain except the brand name. Nothing stops anyone from manufacturing the film and setting up a plant to process it. You couldn't call it "Kodachrome", but you could say "film based on the same design which captured these famous images" and show the color frame of the flag-raising on Iwo Jima or the Zapruder Film or whatever you can get.

Kodachrome was the first monopack, chromogenic film and it has a simple design. At its most basic: top layer--a blue sensitive emulsion which can be made without a sensitizing dye; second layer--yellow filter made out of Cary Lea silver which itself is yellow in color; third layer--green sensitive emulsion (this can be sensitive to blue/green because the blue light will be filtered out by the Cary Lea silver) which can also be made without a sensitizing dye; red sensitive layer--this requires a sensitizing dye which is still sold by Sands, SDA3057. These layers are the bare bones of Kodachrome. You can include plain gelatin between the emulsion layers and add an anti-halation coating on the back. which is made out of gelatin and lamp-black (graphite).

APUG members have already figured out how to develop Kodachrome in color. Scale it up for a commercial plant! Go to Kickstarter or some other source of funds. If you think this film is valuable why not go into the business yourself? I guarantee that if you start making money on the film Kodak will consider reintroducing it themselves.
 

Nzoomed

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Everything about Kodachrome film is in the public domain except the brand name. Nothing stops anyone from manufacturing the film and setting up a plant to process it. You couldn't call it "Kodachrome", but you could say "film based on the same design which captured these famous images" and show the color frame of the flag-raising on Iwo Jima or the Zapruder Film or whatever you can get.

Kodachrome was the first monopack, chromogenic film and it has a simple design. At its most basic: top layer--a blue sensitive emulsion which can be made without a sensitizing dye; second layer--yellow filter made out of Cary Lea silver which itself is yellow in color; third layer--green sensitive emulsion (this can be sensitive to blue/green because the blue light will be filtered out by the Cary Lea silver) which can also be made without a sensitizing dye; red sensitive layer--this requires a sensitizing dye which is still sold by Sands, SDA3057. These layers are the bare bones of Kodachrome. You can include plain gelatin between the emulsion layers and add an anti-halation coating on the back. which is made out of gelatin and lamp-black (graphite).

APUG members have already figured out how to develop Kodachrome in color. Scale it up for a commercial plant! Go to Kickstarter or some other source of funds. If you think this film is valuable why not go into the business yourself? I guarantee that if you start making money on the film Kodak will consider reintroducing it themselves.

Yes thats right, Kodachrome is a very simple 3 layer B&W film essentially. Its the processing thats complicated.

I agree if people want Kodachrome back badly that they should easily start a kickstarter page to contract someone such as inoviscoat do a batch im sure, more funds would also be needed for chemistry and reviving an old K-lab or building new equipment.

Your also right about the brand name, there were others such as Dynachrome that were essentially the same film that were produced after Kodak's patents expired, 3M/Ferrania bought out the company and took over some time later.


Question for PE, you mention that the smaller coaters still have alot of wastage, thats understandable.
Do you have any ideas on how Ferrania are working around this with their narrow coater?
I know they actually plan on upgrading their coater by lengthening the drying cabinets.
Im amazed they can actually do this with those parts from a totally different coater designed for wider rolls of film etc.

Im sure with enough brains people will work around these issues, people need to think outside the square, and Kodak employed many clever minds, but alot such as yourself have left.
People need to brainstorm and work together to make advancements, or else colour analog photography will have no future.
I myself dont feel there will be any issues here, just perhaps only one type of film worst case scenario.
 

Photo Engineer

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Nzoomed, I have no idea what Ferrania is doing nor how they are doing it.

As for all of your engineering "talk" what are your qualifications for making these authoritative statements. Are you an engineer? Have you ever made an emulsion? Have you ever coated it? I would be interested in the answers and if there is a set of "no" answers, I would love to see you get into a darkroom and try making and coating an emulsion. That usually silences quite a few people.

PE
 

falotico

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Generally speaking, you shouldn't be in a hurry to tell Kellogg's how to make cereal or Kodak how to make film.
 

Nzoomed

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Nzoomed, I have no idea what Ferrania is doing nor how they are doing it.

As for all of your engineering "talk" what are your qualifications for making these authoritative statements. Are you an engineer? Have you ever made an emulsion? Have you ever coated it? I would be interested in the answers and if there is a set of "no" answers, I would love to see you get into a darkroom and try making and coating an emulsion. That usually silences quite a few people.

PE

What "authoritative statements." exactly?

I have not even requested anywhere that Kodachrome should be reproduced.

All im saying here is that Ferrania claim to do something that you claim is uneconomic from what i gather.
Their coater must have alot of advantages than the coaters you are familiar with.

Its obviously evident that the issues you have mentioned have been addressed with Ferrania's coater, but look at Ilford and the Impossible Project, they both make far less amounts of film than Kodak/Fuji and are making profitable amounts of film.

It can be achieved, i dont need experience in the film manufacturing industry to tell you this - Its already evident.
 
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pdeeh

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What "authoritative statements." exactly?

In order to answer your first question, you need only look at the rest of your post for examples of (unsubstantiated) "authoritative" statements ...

Their coater musthave alot of advantages than the coaters you are familiar with.

look at Ilford and the Impossible Project, they both make far less amounts of film than Kodak/Fuji and are making profitable amounts of film

My emphasis added. If you can produce the management accounts to substantiate that film makes a profit for the companies you mention, and explain your technical grounds for your statements about different coaters, we'd be a lot further forward in taking you seriously.

In almost every post you make on APUG, you demonstrate that your grasp of manufacturing, process engineering, cost-economics, quality engineering, and just about every other aspect of the manufacture, distribution, sale and marketing of a consumer good is wafer thin.

My suggestion would be that your offer your services as an enthusiast to Ferrania, or perhaps as someone else suggested, do a Kickstarter for a project you are enthusiastic about.

None of have to defer to "experts", and there is everything to be said for a challenging scepticism towards anyone who says "It can't be done", but sometimes you just have to accept that you are up against the limits of what can be done both physically, chemically or practically, and that you are also trying to tell people who have extensive knowledge and experience that you just don't possess that they are wrong.
 
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Roger Cole

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Yes, genetic engineering is the answer. If they can make spider silk from goat's milk, and make a fluorescent green cat using jellyfish DNA, they can
probably invent a human that salivates Kodachrome emulsion.

Maybe they can just clone Ron and build lots of barns. Maybe they could 3D print the barns.
 

Roger Cole

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Ron,

It's just another case of 'No job is impossible to the person who doesn't have to do it'.

Oh, I know Fred, but I like answers.

Depends how much money you can raise via that Kickstarter.

I don't know beans about emulsion making but I'd wager if the Gadowski and Mannes could do it with 1930s technology and process it successfully in a bathtub then it certainly COULD be done nowadays via a start up, given a successful enough Kickstarter. I don't have to know anything about it myself to know that.

Good luck raising...what? A few hundred million maybe? For an old version of a technology that most people think is dead even in modern forms where it isn't. (Film that is, not Kodachrome type color.)
 

Nzoomed

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In order to answer your first question, you need only look at the rest of your post for examples of (unsubstantiated) "authoritative" statements ...


My emphasis added. If you can produce the management accounts to substantiate that film makes a profit for the companies you mention, and explain your technical grounds for your statements about different coaters, we'd be a lot further forward in taking you seriously.

In almost every post you make on APUG, you demonstrate that your grasp of manufacturing, process engineering, cost-economics, quality engineering, and just about every other aspect of the manufacture, distribution, sale and marketing of a consumer good is wafer thin.

My suggestion would be that your offer your services as an enthusiast to Ferrania, or perhaps as someone else suggested, do a Kickstarter for a project you are enthusiastic about.

None of have to defer to "experts", and there is everything to be said for a challenging scepticism towards anyone who says "It can't be done", but sometimes you just have to accept that you are up against the limits of what can be done both physically, chemically or practically, and that you are also trying to tell people who have extensive knowledge and experience that you just don't possess that they are wrong.

These compaines are selling film, if they are not making a good profit, how are they still in business?
The impossible project is selling a good amount of instant film it appears, and Ilford is by no means a large manufacturer.
Ferrania have done their research and are very confident they can make it work.

All im saying is that others are already doing it, Ferrania soon will be.

Im not rubbishing what PE is saying, im only sharing my thoughts based on how other companies are performing.

I dont like being told something is "impossible" or cant be done, no one would make any advancements in anything if we were simply made to believe its not possible.
Henry Ford's famous quote: "if you think you can, or you think you cant, your right!"
 

Diapositivo

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It seems to me very reasonable to think that Ilford makes profit out of their film production.
It seems to me very reasonable to think that Ferrania plans to make a profit out of their film production.

I know nothing about coating but I know something about Economics: people don't produce film in order to realize a loss on it. Film is probably going to be their main business (for Ferrania) or already is (for Ilford).

I guess, as far as Ferrania is concerned, we only have to wait an see. I wish them all the best.

And I do agree Kodachrome requires a market size which is not at the horizon at the moment (but the world continues also behind the horizon :wink: ).
 

Photo Engineer

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Depends how much money you can raise via that Kickstarter.

I don't know beans about emulsion making but I'd wager if the Gadowski and Mannes could do it with 1930s technology and process it successfully in a bathtub then it certainly COULD be done nowadays via a start up, given a successful enough Kickstarter. I don't have to know anything about it myself to know that.

Good luck raising...what? A few hundred million maybe? For an old version of a technology that most people think is dead even in modern forms where it isn't. (Film that is, not Kodachrome type color.)

Mannes and Godowski did not have to make emulsions or coat film. They requested coatings and then processed them. It was up to Kodak's emulsion makers and coating engineers to figure out how to reduce the film to practice. G&M came up with the process.

I think that your other comments were answered above.

PE
 

pdeeh

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Diapositivo said:
It seems to me very reasonable to think that Ilford makes profit out of their film production.

Harman have a diverse product portfolio.
If they relied solely on film production for the consumer market, would they continue in business?
Perhaps selling inkjet paper allows them to continue making film, for instance.
That's really the point.
Which is why, without sight of their accounts, no statements can be made about how they make their money.
Its simply speculation to say "IFilm is profitable for Ilford", but then anything can sound likely or believable if you say it categorically enough.
For me however, the tone of an allegedly factual statement counts for very little unless there is some proper evidence to back it up .
 

Roger Cole

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Mannes and Godowski did not have to make emulsions or coat film. They requested coatings and then processed them. It was up to Kodak's emulsion makers and coating engineers to figure out how to reduce the film to practice. G&M came up with the process.

I think that your other comments were answered above.

PE

Well today there is Inoviscoat and (I think) others who will custom coat to spec. But we're really in agreement. I don't mean it's likely, I just mean that something that was possible once 30+ years ago would certainly be possible again if one raised enough money. Heck raise enough money and build your own coater... that doesn't mean it's in any way practical, probable, likely or feasible. I agree, ain't gonna happen. The best those of us who like to shoot transparency film can hope for is to keep E6 alive and help Film Ferrania get going.
 
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