Survey - Kodachrome Revival Price Point?

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What is the MAXIMUM you be willing to pay for Kodachrome plus processing?

  • film + processing <$40 per roll

    Votes: 26 25.7%
  • film + processing <$50 per roll

    Votes: 12 11.9%
  • film + processing <$60 per roll

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • film + processing <$70 per roll

    Votes: 2 2.0%
  • No price limit

    Votes: 3 3.0%
  • uninterested at any price

    Votes: 58 57.4%

  • Total voters
    101
  • Poll closed .
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MattKing

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I think to a certain extent, PE's view of Kodachrome is like the view of a musician who wants to play their current music, while all the fans keep asking them to play the old hits over and over and over.

The last versions of Ektachrome were so very much better, in so many ways, than the final versions of Kodachrome. The paradox though is nothing will ever have the same magic associated with it as Kodachrome did. And the further paradox is that those who were most intimately involved with the design and manufacture of Kodachrome were and are the least likely to feel or be swayed by that magic.

The people who want Kodachrome revived aren't looking for Kodachrome, they are looking for that magic.
 

BrianShaw

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It's either magic they are after or a holy grail. Or maybe it is just the never ending quest for unobtainium... Or happiness.
 

Andre Noble

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Is there anyway we can have a moratorium on "bring kodachrome back" type posts?

I dont mean to sound flippant or insensitive, but its just too much a waste of time. It's OK to talk about Kodachrome as a past phenomena, but it insults the sensibility to discuss it as a future possibility.
 
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The word Kodachrome should join the other naughty words on Sean's novel Post/Thought Police warning..
 

kb3lms

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Anyway, your right on the life of the chemicals when mixed. How long do they last? Is it a matter of minutes or will they keep for an hour? I know they oxidise fast and you could see the staining on the tanks at dwaynes.

Nzoom, to answer your question, the color developers last for minutes. I have played with some color couplers and CD-3. By the 3 minutes or so that is required for the color development, the developer is oxidized from oxygen in the atmosphere and of no further use. In 3 minutes plastic cup used for developing is stained in pretty cyan, yellow or magenta - which is not a color. And the dye is nearly impossible to clean up if you spill chemicals and the dye forms on a surface.

It seems that a constant supply of fresh chemistry into a machine would be needed as well as the old removed. I would wonder if the K-14 machines used a nitrogen purge in order to minimize oxidation.
 

slm

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Just going to say - I never had the chance to shoot any kodachrome. The few threads I've read on figuring out a way to develop/revive it have been very interesting for me, so they are not without value.
 

iandvaag

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Kodak called it quits [with E6]. I expect Fuji to do so soon.
This is truly sad for me to hear coming from someone so in tune with the inner workings of film R&D and production, but I'm sure you're right.

Tragically, it might be Ferrania who puts the nail in the coffin of E6 films. I feel terrible saying this, because they are doing exactly what I want -- introducing new film. But I'm sure the best they'll be able to come up with is something comparable to Rollei's Digibase 200CR film, which is a far cry from Provia or Ektachrome. When Fuji quits, slide film will be done for. I'll buy some Ferrania when it's available, but it won't fill the huge void left in my photography (medium format stereo slides -- the best photographic experience I've ever seen), as this demands ultra high resolution low grain films, meaning Kodak and Fuji.

Kodachrome's gone. Buy, shoot and process as much E6 as you can or else it will be gone very soon as well. Discontinuation of FP100C is a warning -- nothing's for certain. I'm buying some Provia and Velvia tonight.
 

Sirius Glass

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Is there anyway we can have a moratorium on "bring kodachrome back" type posts?

I dont mean to sound flippant or insensitive, but its just too much a waste of time. It's OK to talk about Kodachrome as a past phenomena, but it insults the sensibility to discuss it as a future possibility.

1*10(99)!!!
The word Kodachrome should join the other naughty words on Sean's novel Post/Thought Police warning..

Yes, yes, please yes!
 

Theo Sulphate

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Tsk Tsk - such anguish. If only there were some way to ignore a thread...


I think to a certain extent, PE's view of Kodachrome is like the view of a musician who wants to play their current music, while all the fans keep asking them to play the old hits over and over and over.
...

Robert Plant: Stairway to Heaven.
 

Nzoomed

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Nzoom, to answer your question, the color developers last for minutes. I have played with some color couplers and CD-3. By the 3 minutes or so that is required for the color development, the developer is oxidized from oxygen in the atmosphere and of no further use. In 3 minutes plastic cup used for developing is stained in pretty cyan, yellow or magenta - which is not a color. And the dye is nearly impossible to clean up if you spill chemicals and the dye forms on a surface.

It seems that a constant supply of fresh chemistry into a machine would be needed as well as the old removed. I would wonder if the K-14 machines used a nitrogen purge in order to minimize oxidation.
I believe that the bag in box chemicals were flushed with nitrogen or some other inhert gas, which explains why it was possible to ship the mixed chemicals.

With the tanks at Dwaynes, it was all open in the air, so they certainly would have had a system with monitoring the chemicals and replenishing them. You could see all the control strips going through the bath also.
 

Nzoomed

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This is truly sad for me to hear coming from someone so in tune with the inner workings of film R&D and production, but I'm sure you're right.

Tragically, it might be Ferrania who puts the nail in the coffin of E6 films. I feel terrible saying this, because they are doing exactly what I want -- introducing new film. But I'm sure the best they'll be able to come up with is something comparable to Rollei's Digibase 200CR film, which is a far cry from Provia or Ektachrome. When Fuji quits, slide film will be done for. I'll buy some Ferrania when it's available, but it won't fill the huge void left in my photography (medium format stereo slides -- the best photographic experience I've ever seen), as this demands ultra high resolution low grain films, meaning Kodak and Fuji.

Kodachrome's gone. Buy, shoot and process as much E6 as you can or else it will be gone very soon as well. Discontinuation of FP100C is a warning -- nothing's for certain. I'm buying some Provia and Velvia tonight.

Check out the samples of scotchchrome on flickr, its pretty good and i cant fault it. Even expired stuff looks good!
Ferrania (under 3M) had the fastest E6 film on the market and they intend on re-releasing it.

Yes its safe to say that Kodachrome is gone, but i do remember a couple of years ago that a Kodak representative said that it may be possible to produce small runs of other films on a single coater.

"On demand" could conceivably include any film that Kodak has ever
manufactured. Someone in the audience asked the inevitable question:
"Including Kodachrome?" Her answer: "Yes, including Kodachrome". She
added that while small runs of Kodachrome were unlikely, it was not out of
the question, since they have had numerous inquiries."

http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=55564


Anyway, im happy with what im shooting, but i like the retro feel, i want to replicate the effects of older films, and i must say i probably liked the vintage Kodachrome even better.
I want to replicate these colours from Kodachrome from the 50's and 60's, any ideas with E6?

I think Kodak could have perhaps reintroduced a vintage kodachrome if they wanted to and appealed to a newer target consumer base with such a unique and exclusive product, but enough of that, main thing is we are hopefully all shooting film. Ill stop shooting if E6 goes out the door. I do shoot a little C41, but it doesnt interest me much, i do like portra, but its not quite the same as reversal film.
 

railwayman3

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Tragically, it might be Ferrania who puts the nail in the coffin of E6 films. I feel terrible saying this, because they are doing exactly what I want -- introducing new film. But I'm sure the best they'll be able to come up with is something comparable to Rollei's Digibase 200CR film, which is a far cry from Provia or Ektachrome. When Fuji quits, slide film will be done for. I'll buy some Ferrania when it's available, but it won't fill the huge void left in my photography (medium format stereo slides -- the best photographic experience I've ever seen), as this demands ultra high resolution low grain films, meaning Kodak and Fuji.

Let's give Ferrania a chance before we condemn their film with faint praise. Their Scotchrome and Solaris color neg were perfectly usable and the fast version had, I believe, a higher speed than any other film....and a check on their website shows that dozens of companies were happy to use the neg film under own-brand labels.

And, even if the "new" version were no better than the 25ASA version from the 1950's, this might appeal to those who want a retro look (dare I say Kodachrome enthusiasts, and those who are still keen to use Rollei Digibase, despite the apparent light piping problems being discussed in another thread right now). I still have Ferrania slides home processed by my late Father in the 1960's Johnsons-of-Hendon kit, and the colors are not awful, just a nice pastel period look. We have a few scanned and printed, in frames, and there is almost a watercolor look to them.
 

wiltw

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You can't get it processed, even if you could buy the film, so what is the purpose of this poll, to vent?!
 

Gerald C Koch

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And, even if the "new" version were no better than the 25ASA version from the 1950's, this might appeal to those who want a retro look (dare I say Kodachrome enthusiasts,

Once again can we forget the "look" of Kodachrome. It was caused by a problem with the cyan coupler. The E6 process uses different and better couplers so we aren't going to see the"look" again. I really don't know why this keeps getting brought up.

When you look critically at Kodachrome's color balance there was not much to like. Skin tones were decidedly cold lending people a rather unheathy appearance.
 
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iandvaag

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Check out the samples of scotchchrome on flickr, its pretty good and i cant fault it.
Let's give Ferrania a chance before we condemn their film with faint praise
I agree, I wish Ferrania much success, and I will buy their film. I just know that film (and moreso colour film) absolutely IS rocket science, and the "high-tech" films seem very threatened. I'm absolutely convinced there will be film for the next 100 years, but my concern is with the emulsions with very advanced technologies that seem to be in financial trouble. I buy Delta films and I think they are really good, but they don't contain all the ultra advanced tech as T-max and Acros. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm just saying Delta is not an equivalent product to T-max and Acros (in my mind). Whenever someone says they feel E6 is in trouble, everyone immediately brings up Ferrania. I'm sure their product will be great, I just don't think it's reasonable to say that their product will be equivalent to Velvia or Provia or Ektachrome. Just think about how much R&D money Kodak and Fuji's invested into their E6 films.

Ferrania seems very in tune with their customer base and well positioned to produce film into the future. They seem able and willing to adapt to market conditions and fill all sorts of obscure niches of film formats which is exactly what the market needs. And I'm thrilled about the possibility of the return of some faster slide films. No Ferrania bashing from me -- I'm just sad about the seeming impending death of ultra high-resolution, low-grain, low-fading, gorgeous-colour, etc slide films.
 

Nzoomed

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Let's give Ferrania a chance before we condemn their film with faint praise. Their Scotchrome and Solaris color neg were perfectly usable and the fast version had, I believe, a higher speed than any other film....and a check on their website shows that dozens of companies were happy to use the neg film under own-brand labels.

And, even if the "new" version were no better than the 25ASA version from the 1950's, this might appeal to those who want a retro look (dare I say Kodachrome enthusiasts, and those who are still keen to use Rollei Digibase, despite the apparent light piping problems being discussed in another thread right now). I still have Ferrania slides home processed by my late Father in the 1960's Johnsons-of-Hendon kit, and the colors are not awful, just a nice pastel period look. We have a few scanned and printed, in frames, and there is almost a watercolor look to them.

Yes i agree, that is indeed the reason people like me are shooting Digibase (im using the same product from Wittner-Cinetec and i know i will expect some light piping) is because im after the retro KODACHROME look!
I dont think it resembles 100% kodachrome, but its reds certainly seem to look close.
Im not after perfection, just retro photos that look like they were taken 40 years ago or more.

Sad to see that Agfa has stopped this film, but at least ive got a stockpile in the freezer.
Poor PE, it never ends.
I dont think you see where i was coming at.
If you read enough threads about Kodachrome, you will see that there were a number of photographers who stopped shooting because they didnt find much difference between the "modern" Kodachrome and Ektachrome, so the inconvenience of processing was not worth it to use Kodachrome.
That, and they preferred the tones of the older kodachrome and KodachromeII, which were significantly different than the modern Kodachrome (which may have been technically superior in colour accuracy) but looses that vintage appeal that is starting to come back.

The other main advantage with Kodachrome was that it was archival and did not fade, old Ektachrome films tended to shift to cyan, Lets hope the new E6 does not do the same.

Anyway, im not saying that Kodak should try and resurrect the Kodachrome, all Im trying to say is that there could have been other options explored with Kodachrome before they scrapped it. With the right marketing and product decisions, i think they could have pulled it off with some unique new products and target a new customer base other than professional photographers who mostly have gone digital.
Of course Kodak was going through a bad patch at this time and was about to file bankrupcy.

Kodak needs to do the whole retro thing, and i think at long last they have recognised this, as is evidence with their new super 8 camera.
Lets hope they bring back E6 and perhaps some new or resurrected films.

It also is concern to me that kodak pretty much have stopped all R&D, this means they only will continue to make existing products, which may not see an issue, but im sure there are more improvements to be made with film that may possibly compete with digital, e.g the ongoing refinement of resolution and grain etc.

Might not seem an issue to you now, but remember down the line that alot of skill and knowledge will be lost as those who worked in R&D die off, you are left with alot of workers who only know how to make a product and not understand how it works.

Quality control can drop off, and this has happened with Vacuum tubes (as i build valve amps) most modern tubes have low quality, but mainly because most of the factories that remain have little or no engineers left and they simply are running the machinery to produce the tubes and know nothing about the technology involved other than how to assemble and test the tubes and thats it. But thats another story, sorry for my rant, no offence to PE or anyone else, but im just sharing my personal view on Kodachrome, i dont know why people get so upset about it TBH, or even why they reply on these threads if it upsets them so much lol
 

Lionel1972

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Kodak advertised Kodachrome heavily until the early '90s when sales began to lag. About then it shared ads with Ektachrome, which had sales far greater than Kodachrome.

Kodachrome was coated once a year and supplied the entire world for that year at about that time. Then the coating schedule slipped because unused outdated Kodachrome was being returned. Gradually slippage to the coating schedule to about 1 time every 2 years, and just one master roll. When returns on that became too great, costs could not be supported.

As for keeping of the solutions, you have three developers with the developing agent and the coupler mixed together. These don't stand around long. In KRL we used to make blanks with no coupler or developer both for keeping and to allow easy experimentation. But to keep it running well, you had to keep it running or it went bad.

It is such a complex product that it overwhelms the making of vinyl records by orders of magnitude. You talk about this as a simple undertaking, but it is not. Steve Frizza worked a near miracle to get the results he got! And that is just with the process. The film already existed.

PE

Dear PE,
I understand the technical requirements are what makes it virtually impossible for Kodachrome to come back in a profitable way. But you seem to imply that because in the 90's the market wasn't interested in Kodachrome anymore no matter the amount of advertizing efforts back then, it means that in the in current and even in a future market this cannot be different. I disagree with this concept. Back then Kodachrome was seen as an old product, taken for granted, more expensive and less popular than E6 (especially Velvia). The context is very different now and many people who never got the chance to shoot Kodachrome would love to use it now even if it is quite more expensive than other analog film. Technical considerations aside, who would have guessed there would be a market nowadays for instant photography based on the sales and interest for it at the time of Polaroid's running out of business?
As I stated in my original post, I don't beleive in a return of Kodachrome for it would require much more than just interest for the product (a new easier way to get it developped and a new interest in color transparencies in the first place). So no, I am not in denial nor illusional (to reply to people who just reject any constructive discussion by throughing out those two words to anyone who might have a different point of view than theirs).
 

Nzoomed

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Dear PE,
I understand the technical requirements are what makes it virtually impossible for Kodachrome to come back in a profitable way. But you seem to imply that because in the 90's the market wasn't interested in Kodachrome anymore no matter the amount of advertizing efforts back then, it means that in the in current and even in a future market this cannot be different. I disagree with this concept. Back then Kodachrome was seen as an old product, taken for granted, more expensive and less popular than E6 (especially Velvia). The context is very different now and many people who never got the chance to shoot Kodachrome would love to use it now even if it is quite more expensive than other analog film. Technical considerations aside, who would have guessed there would be a market nowadays for instant photography based on the sales and interest for it at the time of Polaroid's running out of business?
As I stated in my original post, I don't beleive in a return of Kodachrome for it would require much more than just interest for the product (a new easier way to get it developped and a new interest in color transparencies in the first place). So no, I am not in denial nor illusional (to reply to people who just reject any constructive discussion by throughing out those two words to anyone who might have a different point of view than theirs).

Im along the same lines as you.
Poor marketing never got young photographers like myself to look at the product, really killing myself i never shot it, but im trying to not let it get to me.
At the time, i knew little about all the different types of film chemistry etc and never realised what a complicated process it was, in fact i thought that the reason for sending my film overseas for processing was only because it was motion picture film, and nothing to do with the kodachrome film itself.

Ive learned alot since then, and if i knew more about what kodachrome exactly was, i would have shot it with open arms, even if it cost me $100 to process a roll i would probably shoot a roll or two a year if it meant it was possible.

Anyway, Kodak let things slip (as did fjui to a point) since they are huge manufactures of film, they did not look to the future of digital and adapt to a smaller scale market in time, they only need a coater a fraction of the size of their old large scale coaters. They have downsized to a point, but even then, thats not enough.

Film is the heart of Kodaks business, yes they have diversified into different products, but film is one thing they did well, if they prepared earlier with the onset of digital, they very well could have adjusted to a smaller market while remaining profitable and possibly even kept kodachrome going to this day, lets face it, Kodachrome was such an iconic product.

There is a resurgence of analog photography, Hopefully we will see film to stay, such as valve amps and vinyl audio.
 
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railwayman3

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Once again can we forget the "look" of Kodachrome. It was caused by a problem with the cyan coupler. The E6 process uses different and better couplers so we aren't going to see the"look" again. I really don't know why this keeps getting brought up.

When you look critically at Kodachrome's color balance there was not much to like. Skin tones were decidedly cold lending people a rather unheathy appearance.

I was actually talking about Ferraniacolor (the ancient and the possible new versions) in that post. Kodachrome's so-called "problem" coupler contributed to a unique look. 25ASA Ferraniacolor used the old pre-war Agfacolor couplers, again a retro look which will never be repeated in film.

But what's wrong with wanting a retro look, if it suits the subject or our "artistic" intentions....if it doesn't matter, why do we bother with B&W or sepia toning, or the many alternative processes. (And, for that matter, why do present-day professionals spent hours at their PC's photo-shopping their images to get the exact results they want for their assignments and publications).
 

Nzoomed

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I was actually talking about Ferraniacolor (the ancient and the possible new versions) in that post. Kodachrome's so-called "problem" coupler contributed to a unique look. 25ASA Ferraniacolor used the old pre-war Agfacolor couplers, again a retro look which will never be repeated in film.

But what's wrong with wanting a retro look, if it suits the subject or our "artistic" intentions....if it doesn't matter, why do we bother with B&W or sepia toning, or the many alternative processes. (And, for that matter, why do present-day professionals spent hours at their PC's photo-shopping their images to get the exact results they want for their assignments and publications).

I have to laugh when i post my pics on facebook and people think it was edited on instagram or photoshop!

Quite sad really, when i tell them i didnt have to do "anything" to make the photo "look" that way, they go "WOW" to me in awe (and surprise) lol
 

Photo Engineer

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I was actually talking about Ferraniacolor (the ancient and the possible new versions) in that post. Kodachrome's so-called "problem" coupler contributed to a unique look. 25ASA Ferraniacolor used the old pre-war Agfacolor couplers, again a retro look which will never be repeated in film.

Are you sure that they used the old couplers? They coated with a slide coater, and AFAIK, the problem of using that coater with the old couplers was never solved.

PE
 

Photo Engineer

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Dear PE,
I understand the technical requirements are what makes it virtually impossible for Kodachrome to come back in a profitable way. But you seem to imply that because in the 90's the market wasn't interested in Kodachrome anymore no matter the amount of advertizing efforts back then, it means that in the in current and even in a future market this cannot be different. I disagree with this concept. Back then Kodachrome was seen as an old product, taken for granted, more expensive and less popular than E6 (especially Velvia). The context is very different now and many people who never got the chance to shoot Kodachrome would love to use it now even if it is quite more expensive than other analog film. Technical considerations aside, who would have guessed there would be a market nowadays for instant photography based on the sales and interest for it at the time of Polaroid's running out of business?
As I stated in my original post, I don't beleive in a return of Kodachrome for it would require much more than just interest for the product (a new easier way to get it developped and a new interest in color transparencies in the first place). So no, I am not in denial nor illusional (to reply to people who just reject any constructive discussion by throughing out those two words to anyone who might have a different point of view than theirs).

Lionel, note that only about 100 people have posted in the survey and only about 25 of them are active in this thread. There are over 70,000 members in APUG. Most could not care. Now I understand that this does not go for the whole world, but among photographers it is pretty representative of the surveys among the public. No one is interested in Kodachrome. That is, compared to the number of photographers world wide.

PE
 

railwayman3

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Are you sure that they used the old couplers? They coated with a slide coater, and AFAIK, the problem of using that coater with the old couplers was never solved.

PE

I was thinking of the Ferraniacolor reversal 25ASA available in the 1950's onwards, and which was advertised in the UK as being the first slide film for practical home processing, not the E6 versions, which were, of course much later (not sure if Ferrania did an E4 film between?). I was of the impression that the Agfa patents were released after WW2 and used by several other European makers including Sovcolor, Orwo, Ferrania, Adox, Telco, etc. (and Ansco in the US?). I may be wrong, of course.
 

Photo Engineer

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From about 1945 - 1970 most all companies used so called Fischer couplers. After that, they converted, one-by-one to the Kodak method, in order to use the muli-layer coating method called a slide hopper. The only holdout, AFAIK was Ciba/Ilford.

PE
 
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