Supposed Ansel Adams Negs Found at a Garage Sale

[lxdude]

Bethe-It surely must make your blood boil to see people of little qualification claim to do what you do.

I could have taken a lot more of it apart, but why bother? And I have no training in forensic analysis-just a little common sense and the ability to take a balanced unemotional look at things.

 

[2F/2F]

What and subject themselves to be proven wrong by factual scientific forensic work! No, they want to be right by inuendo and vague references.

Steve

Exactly.

Except they don't want to be right. They just want to make money.

 

[c6h6o3]

Exactly.

Except they don't want to be right. They just want to make money.

The finder is likely to lose a lot of money if he keeps selling those prints. I think the Ansel Adams' Publishing Rights Trust is about to sue him.

The only people who will make money off of this are the lawyers.

 

[winger]

lxdude said - just a little common sense and the ability to take a balanced unemotional look at things.

That's the main qualification to do forensics. Besides the degrees, of course.

 

[BradS]

Hey...wait a minute!

I currently OWN a full plate Korona and I have photographs that I made in Yosemite with a large format camera and which correspond to those images in the glass plates in question. I have prints of these hanging on the walls of my home and the walls of my parents home. I am a person of impecable character whose reputation is beyond reproach...so, therefore, I MADE THE GLASS PLATES ! I even wrote in all caps and made it bold (supplying further evidence to the weight of my argument. It must be true).

Seriously though...I have just read the Final Report of the Investigative Team. Aside from the very poor quality of presentation and obviously very rushed and unprofessional nature of the document all I can say is that after reading the report, I am left without any doubt that this is nothing but a fantastic marketing gimick...

If they had any inkling at all that these were in fact the work of Ansel Adams, they would have done a much less laughably ridiculous job of producing evidence and would have made at least one argument that was not a logical fallacy. As it stands the so called final report is nothing more than a cheaply produced piece of marketing collateral...and I think all involved recognize that as the actual fact.

 

[eddym]

OK, since I've got this under my skin now, here's some info. Several years ago, the American Academy of Forensic Sciences (THE important group in the USA for forensic scientists) organized a sub-group to determine which certifying bodies actually used proper criteria, etc.. for certifying people as experts. Yes, there are BS groups out there that will certify people without proper credentials and testing. Here's the list of acceptable boards - http://www.thefsab.org/accredited.html
Note that the National Association of Document Examiners is not on the list. That's the only group listed by the 2 experts used in this case. Notice that there are 2 sections within the IAI (International Association of Identification) that are relevant to this - one on art and one on photography. There's also a board of questioned document examiners. On this list of links from AAFS - http://aafs.org/forensic-links - there are 3 different QDE groups, but not the National Association of Document Examiners. No mention is made on either CV of the number of proficiency tests passed by either individual. One even lists a couple of one day seminars by Thermo Scientific on their CV. I've attended those. Lots of those. They are one day advertisements for Thermo Scientific products. While they can be instructional, they are not classes.

Thomas Knowles is not an expert in forensics and criminalistics - he is a manager. Not to toot my own horn, but I am an expert. I have analyzed over 2500 cases - by actually being at the bench and examining the evidence myself. I have testified in court over 100 times - presenting my educational background and experience each time. I was a member of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences for several years and was a diplomate of the American Board of Criminalists. For the ABC, one must take and pass an exam that isn't particularly easy - many do not pass it the first time; I did.

Sorry for rant!!! My blood boils a bit when I see people making conclusions based on opinions rather than on facts. Without seeing the actual evidence on the handwriting, I cannot say if that was done properly, but that's the only piece of this report that might have been done right. And I say "might." I am not a QDE, so I cannot reexamine that evidence, but I can provide names of people truly certified to do so.

If the people involved in this case wanted to have a conclusion that would be respected in the scientific and art communities, there are many other people who actually are above reproach who they could have hired to do the analysis. Since they didn't, there will always be questions as to the shooter of these plates.

Gosh Bethe, I never knew you were so cool! Do you have your own TV show too, like Bones?
Seriously, I'm impressed and appreciate your insight on this foolishness.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Bethe,

How come all the desk and lab tables are clean and empty in the CSI televisions shows? There is never a back log! It takes five minutes to test DNA. The CSI act as police officers using guns and chasing suspects. Who knew!

 

[railwayman3]

FWIW, I've just read the pdf of the official report and conclusions carefully.
(I'm no expert in any of the matters discussed, but I have written many reports in my, unrelated, professional career.)

It quickly struck me that much in the phrasing and contents seems geared to proving that the pictures are Adams, rather than independently considering the pros and cons of the matter. There are also many illogical jumps from a degree of probability/possibility to an absolute "fact", and also numerous examples of excited journalese which one would not really expect to see in an unbiased report.

Finally the pages of qualifications of the "experts" (almost a full CV of everyone involved!) would not be expected or necessary in a serious scientific report...the names and basic qualifications of authors are normally all that is given, as they will be most likely already well known to their peers, or, at the very least, easily checked in academic references. Strings of irrelevent qualifications and long names of publications would, of course, impress the gullible?

I'm now much less convinced that there is anything in this. :rolleyes:

 

[lxdude]

Ms. Fisher,

I have other qualifications as well.

I am a member of a large electronic-based organization dedicated to the study, analysis, discussion and furtherance of traditional, i.e. analog, non-electronic photographic processes, both monochrome and full spectrum polychromatic. The monochrome processes alone include silver halide, platinum, palladium, carbon, gum bichromate and many others. I have access to individuals with expertise in plate as well as flexible substrate media.
My own greatest area of expertise lies in the production of full spectrum polychromatic images through reversal process on flexible transparent base stock of more than one format, although I do also produce non-reversal monochromatic images on similar stock.

The organization contains individuals with decades of experience in the use of equipment and materials in which the average person has no expertise.
Through the organization I have access to individuals who are expert in their application of zonal-based exposure theory and practice, a particular area of interest to Adams, who was an originator and noted proponent of it. There are also many who are well versed in application of Scheimpflug theory, another known area of expertise in Adams' work.
In addition, through the organization I have access to representatives and former employees of manufacturers of silver halide based imaging materials, some of which manufactured products used by Adams.

I am a member of the Kodachrome Project, a separate electronic based organization with focus on the unique Kodachrome process, a color medium Ansel Adams is known to have used.

I am a member of other electronic based organizations with orientation toward specific manufacturers of imaging equipment, as well as photo.net, an electronic based organization with broad orientation toward electronic and non-electronic forms of photographic imaging equipment and processes.

Therefore, by having nearly five decades of experience with silver-halide photographic processes, including almost four decades as an adult, and through association with these varied organizations my position as a photographic expert is unassailable. My spelling, grammar and syntax skills are in fact superior to those of the well known Patrick Alt, noted photographic expert after whom the term "Alternative Process" is said to be named.

Though I lack a formal degree, my knowledge and expertise is certainly equivalent to BS.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Uncle Earl's looking better and better by the hour.

 

[winger]

Bethe,

How come all the desk and lab tables are clean and empty in the CSI televisions shows? There is never a back log! It takes five minutes to test DNA. The CSI act as police officers using guns and chasing suspects. Who knew!

Oh, tell me about it. My desk was FAR from empty, that's for sure. We got backlogs handed to us the day we got signed off to do casework. At least the newer TV shows mean no one asks me about Quincy, ME anymore.

Though I lack a formal degree, my knowledge and expertise is certainly equivalent to BS.

love it! You have a quick wit and I enjoy that.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Winger,

Do you solve all your cases in an hour with all the major work done in the last five minutes?

Steve

 

[winger]

Winger,

Do you solve all your cases in an hour with all the major work done in the last five minutes?

Steve

Well, a lot of the major work is done in the last 5 minutes! Thanks to backlogs, a lot of cases don't get started 'til just before they're needed. But most cases aren't as interesting as TV either - just a matter of putting all the pieces together for court. "Solving" them isn't usually as tough (and isn't usually done by the forensics, the science just provides facts to back up the theories).

 

[Ian Grant]

Ms. Fisher,

I have other qualifications as well.

I am a member of a large electronic-based organization dedicated to the study, analysis, discussion and furtherance of traditional, i.e. analog, non-electronic photographic processes, both monochrome and full spectrum polychromatic. The monochrome processes alone include silver halide, platinum, palladium, carbon, gum bichromate and many others. I have access to individuals with expertise in plate as well as flexible substrate media.

APUG

You could become a Subscriber as well

Ian

 

[ic-racer]

Uncle Earl's looking better and better by the hour.

Looking good here! http://www.petapixel.com/2010/07/29/ansel-adams-garage-sale-mystery-apparently-solved/

Draw the moue pointer over the image for an instant overlay/comparison.

 

[apeter]

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN-AS YOU MAY KNOW, I AM RICK NORSIGIAN'S ATTORNEY AND I PUT TOGETHER THE TEAM THAT RECENTLY AUTHENTICATED THE 65 GLASS NEGATIVES FOUND AT A FRESNO GARAGE SALE AS THE WORKS OF ANSEL ADAMS. NEW DETAILS WILL BE REVEALED…LISTEN TO AND CALL IN WITH YOUR MOST CHALLENGING AND PROVOCATIVE QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS AS I ADDRESS THE CURRENT DEBATE AND CONTROVERSY THAT HAS CAPTIVATED THE ART AND PHOTOGRAPHY WORLD. TUNE INTO THE JEFF LEVY SHOW ON KABC RADIO 790, LOS ANGELES, SATURDAY, AUGUST 7, 2010 AT 3 P.M. (PACIFIC STANDARD TIME). I ENCOURAGE YOU TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS PUBLIC DIALOGUE AND DEBATE.

 

[Kevin Caulfield]

You haven't addressed much of the debate here on APUG.

 

[phaedrus]

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN

I don't listen to people shouting at me.

 

[apeter]

My apologies and I get your point re all CAPS...thanks for pointing that out. I look forward to all your calls and a robust and open and respectful debate on Saturday. Best regards.

 

[apeter]

Let me also just point out that I am not and do not profess to be a photography expert...I am an entertainment attorney and did my very best to put together a team of individuals who I believe are some of the top experts in their respective fields from diverse disciplines and background...I have learned a immense amount working on this project and even more reviewing the comments posted on this thread and in this forum. While I do not agree with all of the comments and opinions expressed, it is evident to me that you are all knowlegedable and informed professionals. If anyone feels that they can add to the provenance of these negatives (postively or negatively) please respond to me off-line. All the best.

 

[aluncrockford]

Whilst the provenance of the negatives is interesting surely if they were taken by Ansel Adams the copyright of the images belongs to the trustees of Ansel Adams and as such the owner of the glass plates cannot possibly sell any of the images without the permission of the trustees , in short what he owns are the physical plates , but the images themselves do not belong to him they are the property of the creator

 

[Perry Way]

Let me also just point out that I am not and do not profess to be a photography expert...I am an entertainment attorney and did my very best to put together a team of individuals who I believe are some of the top experts in their respective fields from diverse disciplines and background...I have learned a immense amount working on this project and even more reviewing the comments posted on this thread and in this forum. While I do not agree with all of the comments and opinions expressed, it is evident to me that you are all knowlegedable and informed professionals. If anyone feels that they can add to the provenance of these negatives (postively or negatively) please respond to me off-line. All the best.

I think the friction you feel in here is the perception that you went about this things like how one would go about "proving" an issue in a court of law. And by that I'm implying the nature of providing notices of assertions and allowing the normal time to elapse. If no opposition occurs, then by default the point is assumed as fact. Well that won't work here but it just smells like that's what the goal and aim was all along. It appears to many people that you left out of the equation a reasonable dose of experts who did not agree with the prevailing theory at that time which was "how can we make lots of money quickly" theory. These may all be perceptions, but honestly I don't believe so. So if you're correct about wanting an open debate then I and many others (I'm sure) will be interested to see/understand a truly objective exposition.

 

[BradS]

TUNE INTO THE JEFF LEVY SHOW ON KABC RADIO 790, LOS ANGELES, SATURDAY, AUGUST 7, 2010 AT 3 P.M. (PACIFIC STANDARD TIME). I ENCOURAGE YOU TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS PUBLIC DIALOGUE AND DEBATE.

More marketing hype...what a shameful and dishonorable manner of conduct. Pathetic.

 

[Ian Grant]

More marketing hype...what a shameful and dishonorable manner of conduct. Pathetic.

Only one central person seems credible in the whole debacle and that's AA's grandson Matthew Adams.

Ian

 

[patrickjames]

Entertainment attorney, that says it all.

Nice try on continuing the hype, but I doubt anyone here really cares anymore, especially with your methods of trying to attract attention. You seem to only want to validate your claims so you can attempt to profit from them instead of searching for the truth. People are more interested in the truth than the hype, and any intelligent person, of which there are a lot here, can see right through the hype.

I think it might be time to ban this person since he is specifically using APUG with the aim of making a monetary gain for himself.