Supposed Ansel Adams Negs Found at a Garage Sale

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railwayman3

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2F/2F - That seems a quite fair summary. Adams choose to publish what he regarded as suitable and satisfactory and which met his own high artistic and technical standards.

We all take some good and some bad shots, (especially when we try to take landscapes where weather, lighting, seasons and conditions are all beyond our control!) We then keep the best ones and file away the poor negs and slides (or put them in the bin!).

So, if these are Adams, they are part of photographic history, but not one if his great works, and (even if I had the money!) I wouldn't buy them. Yes, one of Adams' test strips from his darkroom bin, or one of Picasso's paintbrushes, would be an interesting part of history, but not an example of his art. :wink:
 
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Leigh Youdale

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This is such a neat twist!
With so much uncertainty surrounding the whole issue, suddenly the claimant has to switch from trying to prove that the plates ARE Ansel Adams' to proving that they are NOT Uncle Earl's.
It's a bit like watching a TV soap.
 

Marco B

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They are a historical find, but they should stop being described as being as good as they are, and they should be treated as artifacts of photographic history, not an economic goldmine for Mr. Norsigian. Just be honest. Say they are almost indisputably images made by Adams, that they are nowhere close to the level of quality of his more well known work, state that he chose never to publish them, and that they are best viewed as the work of a budding artist

I am not going to add to the long discussion already spun around the legitimacy of the claim that they are Adam's or not, or whether someone may or may not profit from this find, but I do think that assuming that:

"they are nowhere close to the level of quality of his more well known work, state that he chose never to publish them"

is just as presumptuous as any other positive claim to this body of work.

Who knows what Ansel Adams thought of these negatives in case they were his??? :confused: Since he is dead, we will never know...

Sure, they clearly weren't his "first" choice to print, but that doesn't mean he never would!, nor that he found them necessarily "second rate". In addition, I continuously read how the actual printing stage was so vital to Adams's work and the final result, and re-interpreted the negs at times...

Since Adams seems to have been quite prolific, considering that 5000 negatives were destroyed in the fire, it is highly unlikely he would ever be able to print everything, even if he saw possibilities. Personally, considering my own working speed for creating "fine-art" prints, I would have a damned hard, near impossible, time working my way through 5000 negatives even if just 1 in 5 was a "keeper"...

Marco
 
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Q.G.

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There's an interesting quote:

"Uncle Earl may have taken them," he said. "Ansel Adams may have taken them or someone else may have taken them." - A. Peter

The possibilities are endless, it seems.
 

MaximusM3

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The way I look at it is pretty simple. Ansel's negatives were merely a start (as he had always stated). He was a true master at what we call "post-processing". Dodging and burning, and the final print. That's where his vision really came alive. If these negatives were indeed his, they may be important to some extent, from an historical perspective, but I certainly would not buy any prints which would merely be someone else's interpretation of Ansel's vision (or no interpretation at all). If I am not mistaken, we can still buy beautiful silver gelatin prints of some of Ansel's work from the Ansel Adams Gallery so I really don't see why anyone would bother buying these.
 

lxdude

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With all due respect to Mr. Alt and his own work, I find many things to question. Incidentally, while it is true he is a member here, he has posted exactly twice, both times in relation to these negatives.

One thing that I have learned is anybody can be regarded as an expert if they have expertise in a field, and different "experts" often reach very different conclusions. Scientific studies often reach conflicting results. Most folks are aware of how experts hired by one side or the other in a trial seem to arrive at conclusions favorable to the side that's paying them.

One problem here is, what constitutes an expert? Mr. Alt has long experience in large format and ultra large format photography. Does that qualify him to authenticate Ansel Adams? There are many LF and ULF photographers around who may be very familiar with Adams' work, but does that in itself qualify any one of them?
I have for over 35 years used the same type of camera and film that Ernst Haas employed, but I really don't think I could be called upon to authenticate a Kodachrome slide as his.

I see several questionable conclusions claimed as "facts" just in what is in the statement above. Circular logic is being employed to at least some extent.



"Shot on 6 1/2 X 8 1/2 glass plates with a Korona as confirmed on page 3 of Ansels book Examples."

Are they confirmed to be from a Korona? If so, are they confirmed to be from Ansel's Korona? Could they have been from someone else's? How many of those were made? It appears from my limited research that the Korona cameras were made for around 12 years in four sizes, of which the 6 1/2 X 8 1/2 was the smallest.


"Several images have fire damage due to his studio fire in 1937"

The claimed fire damage is proven to be from his studio fire in 1937? Circular logic. Should have put the word "possibly" in there. The statement shows something of Mr. Alt's mindset in this case.


"Virginia Adams handwriting"..."confirmed by independent analysis."

Could be, but handwriting analysis is not infallible.

An experience I had: I once took a camera in to a local repair shop to have a malfunctioning shutter repaired. The technician wrote on the invoice that he could find nothing wrong, and probably a film chip had caused the problem. I was amazed to see that his handwriting was a like a carbon copy of my own sloppy, klunky handwriting. I'm no expert on handwriting, but when I first saw it I was baffled why I would write something like that on the invoice. As I stared at it I realized it had to be the technician's writing, but only because of what was written.
Had it been something I might have written I would have authenticated it with no doubt in my mind. I'm no expert on handwriting, but I know my own when I see it, though from that experience I learned that doesn't mean I know for certain it's mine. My own personal experience makes me leery of "expert" handwriting analysis.

That does not make the conclusion regarding the handwriting invalid. But look into handwriting analysis as a discipline. It is not a widespread academic discipline. It appears to me that a handwriting expert is an expert in no small part because that person says so.

As to fallibility: remember the CBS phony document scandal about George W. Bush's military service that ended up costing Dan Rather his job? The purported signature of Bush's commanding officer on the phony documents was declared genuine by Marcel Matley, one of the two "handwriting experts" employed in this case. Google them both, read what's out there, reach your own conclusions as to the strength of the authentication.


"Lastly, one of the plates are an almost exact match to 2 5X7 images..."
"This is an image of a Jeffries Pine and close examination show the distant snow pack to be identical, meaning these images were taken moments apart."

Of course, it's a Jeffrey Pine.
First, the images are far from "an almost exact match".
Second, how does a distant (no less) snow pack being identical in two separate images prove that they were taken moments apart?
I mean, snow doesn't melt that fast. They could easily have been taken in say, the same week, depending on weather.
Every year, the distant snow pack I can see from where I live looks the same, because the pattern of dark and light is formed from enduring physical features. When it melts off the same pattern is revealed through subsequent weeks. But I've never been able to look at a distant snow pack and see the pattern change within moments. Really.


"Lastly, (once again) these negs were found in LA after Ansel was here in LA teaching at Art Center."

As I recall, Norsigian says he was told by the seller that he got them from a warehouse sale in LA in the 40's. That has not been proven. If true, how much does that add in the way of circumstantial evidence? It places the negatives in LA somewhere around the same time as Adams was teaching in Pasadena. Even back then, Los Angeles was a big place, and there were a lot of warehouses and a lot of photographers. I have no idea how many LA based photographers photographed at some time in the Sierras, but it was probably more than a couple.

"I believe he brought them down as teaching tools."
Possible. That is an opinion with nothing to back it up except some plausibility.

He apparently did not bring his most prized negatives down as teaching tools, or if he did, he took them back, apparently abandoning these. If he valued them, why did he leave them behind?



Now, for just a couple of the claims in the Final Report linked to earlier:


Heading, page 9, (Claim #2)

ONE OF THE IMAGES IN THE NORSIGIAN NEGATIVES IS VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL TO AN AUTHENTICATED ANSEL ADAMS PHOTOGRAPH

Far from virtually identical. Close to the same main subject size, but taken from a different angle. Look at relative positions of background features and the groove in the rock to the left of the tree. Clouds are different. The sun was at a lower angle in the known Adams negative, as shown by the position of the tree shadow over groove. The two images could not have been taken within moments of each other, despite Mr. Alt's claim that they were.

As to the claims of the meteorologist, well, he obviously smokes only the good stuff. Cloud height and snow pack= same day?
As to the relative technical and compositional quality of the two images, well, I know what my opinion is.


Heading, page 17, (Claim #8)

SIZE OF THE NEGATIVES ARE UNIQUE TO ANSEL ADAMS

I didn't know he built and kept for himself all the cameras in that format.


I won't bother to address any more. Even if those negatives were made by Adams, the obvious flaws in just a couple of the claims invalidate the Final Report as an authoritative document.
 

lxdude

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Sirius Glass

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As I have previously stated in this thread, I have been following the story for years, and have probably read most of the articles on the matter, from all angles. I personally believe that they are more than likely Adams' negs. I have no problem believing this.

I have a problem with less-than-stellar photos that Adams never published (or even printed, apparently), thus likely never would have, being poorly technically reproduced in a medium that is "acceptable" at best and sold at out-of-hand prices using a trademark to which Mr. Norsigian does not have rights. Whether they are Adams' negs or not, his name is being used to give them value.

They are a historical find, but they should stop being described as being as good as they are, and they should be treated as artifacts of photographic history, not an economic goldmine for Mr. Norsigian. Just be honest. Say they are almost indisputably images made by Adams, that they are nowhere close to the level of quality of his more well known work, state that he chose never to publish them, and that they are best viewed as the work of a budding artist, reproduce them with excellent artistry using a medium Adams would have, and charge reasonable prices for the prints.

To me, it is not about whether they are or are not Adams' negatives. It is about Mr. Norsigian's presentation of the work, which has little to do with photography, and seems to be geared only toward satisfying his personal greed.

Well stated.

The insult to Ansel is that these substandard photographs are being printed on a stink jet printer rather than by traditional chemical methods. Anything worth seeing is degraded by the stink jet.

Steve
 
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How lovely for this lady to have the uncle earl print! will save her having to fork out thousands of dollars for one! I know Ansel Adams is an amazing man but now all of a sudden I want to know a ton more about this ladies uncle earl!
 

TheFlyingCamera

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As to the 6.5 x 8.5 inch camera format, the camera itself has NO bearing on the final image - all any large format camera is is a light-tight box. The particular brand of film holder used MIGHT be identifiable, and IF the film holders had some unique and identifying quirk, THEN you might be able to say that these images were shot using the same film holder that was used to shoot other Ansel Adams photos. But again, in the 1920s, glass plate holders were all wood, and they had no distinguishing characteristics from holder to holder. So the camera and the plate holder would be absolutely unidentifiable from the plate. Even with a far more modern camera, say a Hasselblad, which has the little corner or side notches in the film gate, there would be no way to conclusively prove that any given negative with Hasselblad corner notches passed through MY Hasselblad. Just not doable.
 

ic-racer

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Well stated.

The insult to Ansel is that these substandard photographs are being printed on a stink jet printer rather than by traditional chemical methods. Anything worth seeing is degraded by the stink jet.

Steve

No insult to Adams. He has no connection to the negatives or the "printing."
 

Michael W

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Shot on 6 1/2 X 8 1/2 glass plates with a Korona as confirmed on page 3 of Ansels book Examples.

Lastly, one of the plates are an almost exact match to 2 5 X 7 images in The Center for Creative Photography in Tuscon. This is an image of a Jeffries Pine and close examination show the distant snow pack to be identical, meaning these images were taken moments apart. The is undeniable proof.

So Ansel was photographing with a 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 camera and a 5 x7 camera at the same time & place?
 

winger

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lxdude - your post in the previous page makes many of the points I see, too. It's quite obvious to me that Patrick Alt has no idea what standards are used for forensic examinations of items.

Hi everyone,

Just thought I would give you all of the story re the Ansel Adams lost negatives. The evidience is so overwhelming as to make your head spin. So in a nutshell here are the facts;

Shot on 6 1/2 X 8 1/2 glass plates with a Korona as confirmed on page 3 of Ansels book Examples. This was one of his primary cameras of the 1920's. By coincidence, I also own the same camera.
Was the Korona the only light tight box using this size? So what that you own the same camera?

Several images have definite fire damage due to his studio fire in 1937.
Some may have fire damage, but there's no way you can say it's "due to his studio fire in 1937." In fact, no one can say exactly when these plates became separated from their shooter.

Virginia Adams handwriting are on the paper sleeves. Confirmed by independent hand writing analysis.
No, handwriting analysis can say they are consistent with Virginia's handwriting. If they say anything more definite, they are overstepping the scientific boundaries.

These are definitely in the style of Ansel's work as they evolved over a period of time. To see them as I did you could just feel his presence.
Yeah, really scientific. :rolleyes:

Lastly, one of the plates are an almost exact match to 2 5 X 7 images in The Center for Creative Photography in Tuscon. This is an image of a Jeffries Pine and close examination show the distant snow pack to be identical, meaning these images were taken moments apart. The is undeniable proof.

Lastly, these negs were originally found in LA after the time Ansel was here in LA teaching at Art Center. I believe he brought them down as teaching tools.
Two "lastly" statements. Great attention to detail. "Could have" is the operative premise here and does not mean the same thing as "did."

All of this evidence has convinced me without a shadow of a doubt that these are indeed lost treasures of Ansels early work that survived his fire. I am so honored to have been chosen to be a part of this team of experts and my knowledge of both Ansel's work and of being a working large format photographer has helped make this what I believe to be an airtight case. Why Matthew Adams and the Foundation continues to discredit this work, especially in light of the fact he has never seen them is a mystery to us all. It has been an incredible experience to hold these images in my hands. They are the real deal.

Patrick Alt

I'm pretty sure I saw a quote from Matthew Adams where he did see at least some of them.
Just because they are in the same style as Adams does not in any way make him the shooter. Being a large format shooter does not make you a forensic expert in comparing styles either.


I have yet to see an actual forensic expert in the comparison of items listed in all this. The former FBI agent is NOT a forensic scientist. Agents are agents; ie.. cops. Yes, for a time they were signing scientific reports, but they did not do the analysis. If this team had hired someone with actual experience examining evidence to the level evidence is scrutinized, I might be willing to see their side. So far, I only see non-scientists and "liars for hire" involved.

If there's a print made by Uncle Earl that exactly matches one of the plates, then I'd be convinced he shot that one and therefore could have shot the others. Each one is a separate item and has to be examined in that manner. There is absolutely no way that a competent forensic scientist would make a blanket statement that all are from the same shooter to begin with.


I could go on for awhile, but I'm typing one handed because my baby is on the other one. And I'm using my off hand, too. In my opinion (and I have testified in court as to my opinion over 100 times with FACTS to back it up), this examination was not done to the standards necessary to reach the conclusions purportedly reached.
 

winger

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OK, since I've got this under my skin now, here's some info. Several years ago, the American Academy of Forensic Sciences (THE important group in the USA for forensic scientists) organized a sub-group to determine which certifying bodies actually used proper criteria, etc.. for certifying people as experts. Yes, there are BS groups out there that will certify people without proper credentials and testing. Here's the list of acceptable boards - http://www.thefsab.org/accredited.html
Note that the National Association of Document Examiners is not on the list. That's the only group listed by the 2 experts used in this case. Notice that there are 2 sections within the IAI (International Association of Identification) that are relevant to this - one on art and one on photography. There's also a board of questioned document examiners. On this list of links from AAFS - http://aafs.org/forensic-links - there are 3 different QDE groups, but not the National Association of Document Examiners. No mention is made on either CV of the number of proficiency tests passed by either individual. One even lists a couple of one day seminars by Thermo Scientific on their CV. I've attended those. Lots of those. They are one day advertisements for Thermo Scientific products. While they can be instructional, they are not classes.

Thomas Knowles is not an expert in forensics and criminalistics - he is a manager. Not to toot my own horn, but I am an expert. I have analyzed over 2500 cases - by actually being at the bench and examining the evidence myself. I have testified in court over 100 times - presenting my educational background and experience each time. I was a member of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences for several years and was a diplomate of the American Board of Criminalists. For the ABC, one must take and pass an exam that isn't particularly easy - many do not pass it the first time; I did.

Sorry for rant!!! My blood boils a bit when I see people making conclusions based on opinions rather than on facts. Without seeing the actual evidence on the handwriting, I cannot say if that was done properly, but that's the only piece of this report that might have been done right. And I say "might." I am not a QDE, so I cannot reexamine that evidence, but I can provide names of people truly certified to do so.

If the people involved in this case wanted to have a conclusion that would be respected in the scientific and art communities, there are many other people who actually are above reproach who they could have hired to do the analysis. Since they didn't, there will always be questions as to the shooter of these plates.
 

2F/2F

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The Uncle Earl tidbit is certainly interesting.
 

Barry S

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I've reviewed the report and from a scientific standpoint, the conclusions are in no way justified from the available evidence. I've been a research scientist for many years and by any standard--the report is very shoddy work. It's completely lacking in scientific validity. The biggest issues are all the unsupported conclusions--both by the individual "experts' and those who were asked to judge the body of evidence. I'd like to see Patrick Alt return to this forum to defend each of his conclusions--nothing I've seen supports their definitive nature . I can only think that everyone got swept up in the possible excitement or profit, such that they lost their better judgment when it came time to draw their conclusions.
 

Ian Grant

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Bethe, I think you have summed it up well. All the people involved in authenticating the works seem to be very marginal, and not who a reputable gallery would go to to seek Authentication.

At worst they aren't Ansel Adams work, at best they are rejects that Ansel Adams never intended using for any exhibition or publication.

Ian
 

2F/2F

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At worst they aren't Ansel Adams work, at best they are rejects that Ansel Adams never intended using for any exhibition or publication.

Exactly.
 

Sirius Glass

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If the people involved in this case wanted to have a conclusion that would be respected in the scientific and art communities, there are many other people who actually are above reproach who they could have hired to do the analysis. Since they didn't, there will always be questions as to the shooter of these plates.

What and subject themselves to be proven wrong by factual scientific forensic work! :surprised: No, they want to be right by inuendo and vague references. :wink:

Steve
 

JBrunner

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